Finsbury Park gates & new 'waiting area'

[stut]

Hmm, so if I were feeling bloody-minded, I could simply reach over, and touch in on the 'in' pad, leaving the gates open..?

Also, I'm not against gates per se, I'm only against poor implementation of them, whether that's a lack of clarity over how to use them, too few for the volume of passengers, or making life difficult for people with luggage or in wheelchairs (and sadly, there are now several on the network that fall foul of these...)

 

[causton]

Hmm, so if I were feeling bloody-minded, I could simply reach over, and touch in on the 'in' pad, leaving the gates open..?

Don't they close after a period of time? Also they should be monitored so someone should notice! Although looking at Jon's pictures you shouldn't need to reach far... see this picture!

 

[jon0844]

Saw Serco working hard to try and fix the sticky emergency gate on platform 1 tonight.. the area was taped off.

I am surprised they only noticed the gates didn't open properly about 10 minutes before switching it all on. Did Serco perhaps know and keep quiet until the FCC bosses were there to give it the final okay?

 

[jon0844]

This morning the gates were open in the peak, but manned by a single RPO. Everything was quiet until a man came up shouting to him 'Oi you. yes, you, you work here don't you?. Come here and sort this out!' and started to tear into him because his Oyster card was saying 'seek assistance' at the gate.

He then launched into a tirade about how he keeps having this problem, and he isn't a fare evader (but he IS a c***!), and treated the staff member like complete s**t. I'd have found it quite hard to try and help the man when he started out with such a bad temper and language.

Now, I didn't work out what the problem was but usually in these instances, it turns out to be unresolved journeys. Nor do I know how he resolved the situation, or if he did, as when my Moorgate train came in, he shouted '**** this' so loud half the platform turned around and boarded the train - luckily in a different place or I'd have been forced to bite my tongue for the whole journey and not tell him how rude he was.

Given how the gates have usually been manned by many members of staff and BTP, it's a shame the poor RPO was forced to just put up with it - and then let him go - as I'd have liked to see him thrown out of the station or even arrested.

Nobody speaks to a member of staff like that, no matter what the problem is. The stupid tosser probably needs to learn that if you do have a problem with your ticket/smartcard, you might just want to be nice to the person that you want to help you! But, at the same time, as he was allowed to continue on his way, I guess he feels it's perfectly appropriate.

 

[Skimble19]

Very rare for there to just be one RPO.. perhaps there's a lot of staff sick at the moment? I know a lot of people I know seem to be getting some virus..

 

[jon0844]

It wasn't even the usual person (given they now seem to have a team there). I do wonder if they ever fully intend to staff the gates properly, and have them operating throughout the day?

The gates were open every time I went to Potters Bar last week too.

I met someone on Saturday who had come to Welwyn Garden City from Kent and travelled with her Oyster PAYG card. She was concerned about the fact she couldn't touch out and I said she was lucky she hadn't been caught by the FCC staff as she'd have been given a PF on top of the maximum fare she'll now have on on her Oyster.

So, clearly, WGC was unstaffed on Saturday too.

Meanwhile, Hatfield has the gates working and then you board the train there and within a few seconds they begin an on-board check!

 

[Skimble19]

I've just witnessed what I'd assume was an FCC "Sting" like the one at Highbury.. at least 8 (possibly 9/10) RPI's, at least 6 coppers (including BTP!) and the usual station staff are currently at Biggleswade.. When I went through they'd got at least 6 people without tickets off the 13:52.. also means they can help keep the scroats away from the fresh paint all over the place

 

[stut]

I've just witnessed what I'd assume was an FCC "Sting" like the one at Highbury.. at least 8 (possibly 9/10) RPI's, at least 6 coppers (including BTP!) and the usual station staff are currently at Biggleswade.. When I went through they'd got at least 6 people without tickets off the 13:52.. also means they can help keep the scroats away from the fresh paint all over the place

Well, I hope they weren't doing their usual trick of blocking public access to the overbridge...

 

[Skimble19]

Ahh yes, they do seem to like doing that.. personally I didn't have a problem today though, just walked straight through them (although it was a bit of a PITA, they took up most of the bridge and BTP looked most offended when asked to move!). Can't speak for everyone else though, but I imagine it's gonna be rather busy down there in about four minutes time..!

 

[swt_passenger]

I met someone on Saturday who had come to Welwyn Garden City from Kent and travelled with her Oyster PAYG card. She was concerned about the fact she couldn't touch out and I said she was lucky she hadn't been caught by the FCC staff as she'd have been given a PF on top of the maximum fare she'll now have on on her Oyster.

Are you actually suggesting she wanted to touch out at Welwn GC here? Or that she couldn't change from PAYG to paper somewhere else for some reason?

 

[jon0844]

Yes, as I said. She didn't realise there were no readers at WGC and assumed it was part of the zones. I have no reason to disbelieve her, given how concerned she was about not having touched out and being fined (overcharged) on her Oyster. I said that was the least of her worries!

She was extremely lucky, but she may have avoided a £20 PF but she will have been overcharged on her PAYG card. In this case, TfL gets the money, not FCC. As for swapping tickets, that would be a PITA. A man had to get off a WGC train at Finsbury Park to touch out with his Oyster, then wait for another train to use a paper ticket to Potters Bar.

It's a shame there's no reader on the train, and if the argument is that people would scan as soon as they saw an RPI, I have been told that people already do this when they see RPIs onboard slow trains now. They walk down to give themselves time to jump off and touch in on the platform, often managing to jump back on the very same train but now with a valid Oyster card. They, naturally, claim they boarded there. I saw this once and mentioned it to staff, only to discover this happens a lot.

As an aside, I asked at FPK why the gates aren't in use during the peaks and was told it's a safety case issue. So, that's money well spent! Serco were still working on platforms 1/2 on the side barrier/gate with some FCC staff in suits watching on.

Mind you, it's better to see open gates than having heard about someone falling or being pushed onto the tracks (or down the stairs).

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes, as I said. She didn't realise there were no readers at WGC and assumed it was part of the zones...

Ah right. I did see a woman having an argument with staff after trying to use Oyster at Southampton Central a while back, I wondered at the time if she was claiming she was still in the zones.

I wonder if anyone has seen an Oyster attempt further from London?

 

[jon0844]

WGC is not that far out, but I can sort of see how someone might just think they can use prepay as far out as they want, if they have enough money on their card.

It is tricky as they may have touched in so get stung when they had no intention not to pay, then get a max cash fare AND a penalty fare! I presume they couldn't be prosecuted as there is no intent?

Some TOCs make it clear where Oyster PAYG ends, like NXEA and c2c but FCC doesn't.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

 

[Skimble19]

Would be nice if Oyster was extended throughout the FCC network really, can see it being extremely complicated though..

 

[yorkie]

She was extremely lucky, but she may have avoided a £20 PF but she will have been overcharged on her PAYG card.

I'd argue she has been undercharged because the fare she should have been charged to WGC is less than the fare to WGC (However if she went on to make a further journey that day from WGC then it may not be that simple).

Anyway glad she got away without a PF it as she sounded genuine and PFs are disproportionately high - but, sadly, tht is exactly the sort of person a PF is designed for! A genuine mistake = a PF. Legally perfectly right. But morally that's insane.

The system is wrong.

Would be nice if Oyster was extended throughout the FCC network really, can see it being extremely complicated though..

It needn't be.

However given the worrying way that Grays and Watford have done, sadly, unless someone gets a grip, it will be.

Perhaps we should run a bet to see who is first to have zone "S"? Slough, Stevenage, or Shenfield? :roll:

If they could be sensible and have zone 10, 11, etc, as logical extensions to the existing zones (and 7, 8 and 9 as extensions where they aren't already, of course) then it would be fine.

But they won't.

 

[jon0844]

Would be nice if Oyster was extended throughout the FCC network really, can see it being extremely complicated though..

I am sure it will.

Someone who is doing a lot of work with mobile money and trying to get phone companies and banks to talk to each other to enable NFC on mobile phones for banking (and potentially for travel), is saying that there will be a major change to Oyster by the end of the year?

 

[causton]

Some TOCs make it clear where Oyster PAYG ends, like NXEA and c2c but FCC doesn't.

They do have these posters:

Oyster can NOT be used from this station
Poster showing which stations are in which zones

I think I saw them once at the car park entrance of Potters Bar station though, and haven't seen them since so don't know if they're even still there! I think there's also one halfway along the s/b platform at Hatfield which is no bloody use at all... good luck finding one yourself though!

 

[asylumxl]

FCC has had posters regarding Oyster cards for years, literally. They were all around even when it was only valid as far north as Kentish Town. I remember quite clearly as I spent many times waiting at the old Blackfriars..

 

[jon0844]

Yes, they do have posters. I have taken some photos, but they're in stupid locations. One is on platform 1 near the male toilets at Potters Bar, for example, with nothing visible as you enter the station and go to, and through, the gates. If there is one still on the car park side then that's fine, for people entering that way.

At King's Cross, they're part way down platform 9. Both are after the gates and it's only any good if you're travelling from platform 9. Not much good from 0-8 or 10 and 11.

I have no idea where any poster is at Hatfield, as the one they used to have (before you exit, and visible from entry) is now a general poster about using the gates.

I am sure they comply by saying they have put up a poster at each station, but the positioning is silly and it makes good sense to announce on the train when you are reaching the last place you can use your Oyster card.

Potters Bar must be a particular issue given you can use Oyster on the buses outside, but not at the station! And at Finsbury Park, it's rather silly that you need to touch out and back in to swap between the tube, when the gates are now going to be open most of the time. If you didn't touch out having come from the Victoria/Picadilly Line and them boarded a FCC train, could you still touch out at, say, New Southgate or Hadley Wood? Surely you can't get a PF when you've still got an open journey and are still within the zones?

 

[MikeWh]

And at Finsbury Park, it's rather silly that you need to touch out and back in to swap between the tube, when the gates are now going to be open most of the time. If you didn't touch out having come from the Victoria/Picadilly Line and them boarded a FCC train, could you still touch out at, say, New Southgate or Hadley Wood? Surely you can't get a PF when you've still got an open journey and are still within the zones?

Not touching out and in again is fine just like it always was, after all you can make the vic-fcc switch at Highbury and Islington as well during the day. They've also set the entry gates at Finsbury Park to let you in if you haven't touched out from the tube, and continue the journey as if you hadn't touched at all. I've no idea what the journey history looks like in that instance though.

The gates have been a complete disaster though. FCC delayed switching them on at the last minute and Oyster changed the programming of the validators too early, then had to change them back. I've also heard that the safety people aren't happy with the siting so close to the stairs, hence why they are open in the peaks. And there's still a possibility that TfL might want to gate all four street entrances to secure the whole station. Ooops!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I read a cautionary tale somewhere that said that even when gatelines are opened, an individual gate's Oyster pads are still set to entry or exit for touching in and out. It is only standalone validators that will do either an entry or exit. Perhaps MikeWh knows the exact details - I know he investigated the previous situation at Finsbury Park, regarding 'continuation exit' recently?

It seems easy to make the wrong type of touch in these circumstances - especially as gates that are in/out switchable or bidirectional (like recent NR wide gates) will have Oyster pads on both sides...

I thought if you touch on the pad facing 'out' it registers an exit and if you touch on the pad facing 'in' it registers an entry...

When the gates are locked open you can only touch successfully in the direction that the gates are open. The reader the other way will have a red light rather than an orange one and it won't beep or go green when you touch.

 

[stut]

I wonder if anyone has seen an Oyster attempt further from London?

I tried in The Hague recently. I was curious to see what would happen...

 

[jon0844]

I tried mine in Brisbane (same Cubic gates!) but it gave an error. I guess it's slightly outside Z6.

The gates have been a complete disaster though. FCC delayed switching them on at the last minute and Oyster changed the programming of the validators too early, then had to change them back. I've also heard that the safety people aren't happy with the siting so close to the stairs, hence why they are open in the peaks. And there's still a possibility that TfL might want to gate all four street entrances to secure the whole station. Ooops!

Now given they covered all the Oyster validators to enter FCC (downstairs) on the first weekday of operation, then had the gates open (with no signs in view to say they were now on, and the LEDs aren't that clear), followed by a sting at Highbury & Islington, I wonder if the PFs issued would be deemed invalid?

 

[swt_passenger]

I am sure it will.

It won't be straightforward. The current FCC network includes Brighton and Bedford. Which zones do you suggest they would they go in, and what would be a suitable maximum cash fare to deduct on entry?

Someone who is doing a lot of work with mobile money and trying to get phone companies and banks to talk to each other to enable NFC on mobile phones for banking (and potentially for travel), is saying that there will be a major change to Oyster by the end of the year?

There is, and it's been discussed in a previous thread, it is explained on the TfL website somewhere as well. Basically you'll be able to touch in and out with a debit or credit card using a system called EMV, what one of the banks calls 'wave pay' IIRC. This is supposed to go live on buses first, and all other transport modes later.

This isn't the same as the now obsolescent Barclaycard 'onepulse' - which embedded a separate Oyster chip in an ordinary chip and pin credit card.

There's a good bit of background here, the EMV stuff is towards the end: http://www.nfc-forum.org/resources/presentations/Brian_Dobson_Transport_for_London.pdf

 

[jon0844]

Brighton, Peterborough and Cambridge wouldn't be within any zones unless we shake up the whole railway industry and create zones for everywhere - then charge for how many zones you cross. But, that's probably pie-in-the-sky thinking for the forseeable future. I don't see any signs that the railway (well ATOC) seem to want to change what we have already in terms of fares.

But, for PAYG then you could have enough to pay for all of these destinations, especially with the new system you mentioned above (thanks for that, I shall go off and read it now!).

I agree that the maximum charge for touching in would be a problem though. That will be a problem for any future smartcard based system introduced in the future, especially if it's already known that people will simply run to a validator as soon as they see revenue staff - and hope to get away without touching in/out otherwise.

Sadly, fraud will always exist and I guess you just continue to punish, ideally prosecuting with a criminal record, to deter them.

 

[clagmonster]

WGC is not that far out, but I can sort of see how someone might just think they can use prepay as far out as they want, if they have enough money on their card.

It is tricky as they may have touched in so get stung when they had no intention not to pay, then get a max cash fare AND a penalty fare! I presume they couldn't be prosecuted as there is no intent?

Some TOCs make it clear where Oyster PAYG ends, like NXEA and c2c but FCC doesn't.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

I suspect they could be prosecuted for failing to show a valid ticket on demand. As for deliberate fare evasion, I'm not sure. If she went to seek help from staff or pay a fare before leaving, then no (I would suggest a sensible option would be for the staff to sell a ticket from Boundary Zone 6). If she didn't seek assistance, I don't know, it seems that a prosecution can be gained by demonstrating there was no attempt to pay, would touching in with an Oyster count as such?

 

[Aictos]

Some TOCs make it clear where Oyster PAYG ends, like NXEA and c2c but FCC doesn't.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

I disagree with you on that claim, FCC has posters on stations which state if Oyster is valid or not from that station plus it is also plain to see in the full timetables which FCC stations accept Oyster and which ones do not.

What I would like to see nationally and this is likely something we can agree on is for a smartcard using ITSO standards, on a smaller note I like to see the current Scotrail smartcard rolled out to all First TOCs now I won't go into detail why the smartcard is so good for the Scots as there is enough without me adding to the mix.

But using the smartcard in Bristol then Glasgow can only be good.

 

[jon0844]

I don't know where you have the posters at Hertford North but at many stations like KGX, they may as well not exist. The posters and route map are down on platform 9, after the gates. The only thing you see are gates with Oyster readers, then your train.

Come to think of it, how do you touch in to get a train leaving on platform 6-8?

Fair enough about the timetable, but who picks up a timetable for a single journey? At most you would get the pocket one and they don't say do they?

She came from Kent, so wouldn't have got a timetable from there and presumably checked the time on the departure board.

Now she clearly didn't seek assistance so maybe she should have done, but given her fear of being hit hard by not touching out, she probably thought she was already being punished.

Update: Guess what; I saw a poster saying where you can use Oyster by the gateline at Potters Bar today! Only on the side going into London, which I suppose is fair enough.

 

[Mojo]

I had to go to Finsbury Park for work today and thought I'd go back the "scenic" route (ie. via FCC into Moorgate). Whilst waiting I saw the barriers were in use with two RPIs for each gateline. They seemed to cope quite well with the small numbers of off peak loadings but I can fully understand why they open them at peak hours.

I didn't have a full look around but thinking now where are the emergency open buttons? I saw that the control unit with one button was behind the balustrade for the stairs so not very accessible for those monitoring the gates. I also overheard an RPI try to explain to a woman that the maximum cash fare on Oyster was the "London Underground penalty fare." When the woman walked off he said to his colleague that he was hit with a maximum cash fare on a recent trip for some drinks one evening at Highbury/Islington!

 

[jon0844]

Got this email from TfL today;

Dear Mr Morris,

I am writing to let you know about changes for Oyster pay as you go customers at Finsbury Park station.

If you use National Rail platforms where new ticket gates have been installed, always touch in or out on the yellow Oyster reader on the gates.

For connections to and from London Underground, touch one of the yellow Oyster validators in the subways as well.

When using Oyster pay as you go, it is important to touch in and touch out to ensure you pay the correct fare.


Yours Sincerely,

Julie Haley
Oyster Customer Services

Visit our website to look at our ’Travel Tools’, a new range of free travel services to help you plan your journey tfl.gov.uk/traveltools

Almost all the validators in the subway are now out of service or covered up. What's more, it seems that when you touch in upstairs on the gates, it debits £5 from your PAYG credit - and then corrects things presumably when you touch out later on. I saw one RPI really struggling to explain this to a lady who was rather upset with it having taken so much of her topped-up credit.

 

[swt_passenger]

What's more, it seems that when you touch in upstairs on the gates, it debits £5 from your PAYG credit - and then corrects things presumably when you touch out later on.

That's how PAYG has worked everywhere for a few years - and it will be more than £5 in the peaks. It shouldn't deduct another entry charge if you have come directly from the underground though.

There was a time when the max cash fare on entry was higher for some NR services than TfL's equivalent, and at one stage the literature about Oyster PAYG seemed to suggest this charge was mainly a NR thing, but LU did charge a max cash fare as well.

AIUI the original PAYG system didn't charge a max fare on entry - but this was fixed after a while, MikeWh might know the exact timescales I expect...