Should we have a "maximum" fare for any journey?

[Krokodil]

From this document: https://www.ns.nl/binaries/_ht_1704...ten/ns-tarievenlijst-eng-consumenten-2024.pdf trips are broken up into 'fare units' and there is a sliding scale. 'Fares units' are related to distance but not strictly Km-based, it appears from this map: https://www.ns.nl/binaries/_ht_1701...enkaarten/tariefeenhedenkaart-az-2024-eng.pdf

So it's the roughly the equivalent of 30p/mile. I think that the only walk-up fares in the UK that get close to that are certain "community rail" routes.

 

[deltic]

So it's the roughly the equivalent of 30p/mile. I think that the only fares in the UK that get close to that are certain "community rail" routes.

The average fare paid in Jul-Sep 2023 was 28p per mile across the whole network and is at its lowest level since 2004 after inflation is taken into account. A key reason is the loss of high paying business travel.

 

[Krokodil]

The average fare paid in Jul-Sep 2023 was 28p per mile across the whole network and is at its lowest level since 2004 after inflation is taken into account. A key reason is the loss of high paying business travel.

I was specifically talking about walk-up fares, not Advances or Seasons. I should have made that clearer, edited now

 

[Starmill]

Cheaper travel just generates more travel which is generally not good for the environment. If you want cheap travel you can travel by bus or coach.

This argument is hilariously self-defeating.

 

[Howardh]

Putting into search "day pass UK railways" I found, on the trainline site, "BritRail Pass" for £96 to cover two days. Unfortunately it's for non-UK citizens - meaning I suppose if you are lucky enough to live here with an Irish passport you're in luck - so for foreign tourists there IS a price cap!!

Maybe us Brits should be allowed to buy one such pass per month or something along those lines, to cover us if we do have to travel at short notice??

BritRail Pass | Buy your UK Rail Pass Online | Trainline

Buy your BritRail Pass online today and enjoy unlimited train travel in the UK for a fixed price. Learn more about BritRail Pass validity, prices and discounts.

www.thetrainline.com

 

[deltic]

This argument is hilariously self-defeating.

According to BEIS figures intercity coaches have lower emissions than the average train service - for many intercity routes that don't serve London we are still heavily dependent on diesel trains

 

[yorksrob]

Putting into search "day pass UK railways" I found, on the trainline site, "BritRail Pass" for £96 to cover two days. Unfortunately it's for non-UK citizens - meaning I suppose if you are lucky enough to live here with an Irish passport you're in luck - so for foreign tourists there IS a price cap!!

Maybe us Brits should be allowed to buy one such pass per month or something along those lines, to cover us if we do have to travel at short notice??

BritRail Pass | Buy your UK Rail Pass Online | Trainline

Buy your BritRail Pass online today and enjoy unlimited train travel in the UK for a fixed price. Learn more about BritRail Pass validity, prices and discounts.

www.thetrainline.com

Yes, it's marvellous isn't it.

In other countries they provide the best deals to their own citizens to aid with the cost of living and help the economy.

Here, of course, we give visitors the best deals and fleece our own citizens.

 

[Krokodil]

According to BEIS figures intercity coaches have lower emissions than the average train service - for many intercity routes that don't serve London we are still heavily dependent on diesel trains

A four coach train doesn't have twice the emissions of a two coach train. So more passengers doesn't necessarily mean more emissions than if they went by coach. Quite apart from the fact that most of the extra passengers gained from a fares cut would be former car drivers or airline passengers who have massive emissions compared with train travel.

 

[deltic]

A four coach train doesn't have twice the emissions of a two coach train. So more passengers doesn't necessarily mean more emissions than if they went by coach. Quite apart from the fact that most of the extra passengers gained from a fares cut would be former car drivers or airline passengers who have massive emissions compared with train travel.

All the evidence suggests there is little mode shift from such initiatives and far more generation of new trips.

 

[Starmill]

According to BEIS figures intercity coaches have lower emissions than the average train service - for many intercity routes that don't serve London we are still heavily dependent on diesel trains

This has nothing to do with anything I'm afraid. It's a matter of transferring journeys made by private car to the train, or indeed to coaches.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Feb 2024 ==

All the evidence suggests there is little mode shift from such initiatives and far more generation of new trips.

I don't think the evidence does suggest that at all. Per population travel demand isn't rising very quickly.

Or are you suggesting we put mileage limits on people's cars?

 

[6Gman]

Are you willing to pay more tax to cover the shortfall in income?

And how would people living miles away from any useful railway service feel about paying more tax so others can get free/ dirt cheap travel?

 

[Howardh]

And how would people living miles away from any useful railway service feel about paying more tax so others can get free/ dirt cheap travel?

Could be argued that if out in the countryside they pay for things they don't get like street lighting. In Manchester I assume the £2 bus fares (£5 max/day) are heavily subsidised, and a high % of the population may well never use a bus. But they will benefit if they are drivers because more on the buses and rail = less congestion for drivers.

In Luxembourg I think all bus and rail transport is free (paid for by the government/taxes?) and I wonder if there's been significantly more use and whether roads are emptier = less congestion = less need for regular road maintainence?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

My Boss had to attend a last minute meeting in London the other week, he went first class from Leicester = £244. Ouch.

Did that fare include a booking fee?

 

[Mikw]

Did that fare include a booking fee?

Not sure. He just sent me a screengrab of the ticket he got.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Feb 2024 ==

And how would people living miles away from any useful railway service feel about paying more tax so others can get free/ dirt cheap travel?

You could make the same argument for people who never use NHS services, they pay for the greater good - and they may need and be glad of it one day.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Feb 2024 ==

Yeah movement shouldn't be restricted, but do you work for free? If not why would you expect railwaymen to?

I certainly don't expect them to work for free, But i don't like the idea of people being priced off the trains by stupidly high un-fares either.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Feb 2024 ==

Are you willing to pay more tax to cover the shortfall in income?

Well, i would rather so many of our taxes aren't wasted in the first place, Covid fast lane anyone?

 

[yorksrob]

All the evidence suggests there is little mode shift from such initiatives and far more generation of new trips.

If newly generated rail travel is no value to the economy, the same will be true of road travel, in which case why bother with modal shift and instead just prevent motorists from travelling as well ?

 

[Krokodil]

All the evidence suggests there is little mode shift from such initiatives and far more generation of new trips.

In 2019 air travel had 65% of the Edinburgh-London market. In 2022 rail had 57% of that market. Lumo would very much like to claim credit for this.

And how would people living miles away from any useful railway service feel about paying more tax so others can get free/ dirt cheap travel?

Most of us are not talking about making travel dirt cheap, just making fares a bit more sensible. Some standard class fares are close to £1/mile.

 

[Wolfie]

My Boss had to attend a last minute meeting in London the other week, he went first class from Leicester = £244. Ouch.
Personally i think travel is a right and not a luxury, and it should be free for all. Ok, i know it's not possible, but a maximum of £30 or so would be acceptable i think.

Interesting that you think that those who for health or other reasons can't travel should pay higher taxes to subsidise your jollies. That isn't a no from me, it's a hell no.

What next? Free long-haul flights as travel is a right? That is where your 'logic' goes.....

 

[zwk500]

In Luxembourg I think all bus and rail transport is free (paid for by the government/taxes?) and I wonder if there's been significantly more use and whether roads are emptier = less congestion = less need for regular road maintainence?

Luxembourg as a country is roughly equivalent in population and area to Oxfordshire. It has a considerable advantage in that some 200,000 workers (of a total workforce of c.450,000) commute in from abroad on a regular basis, paying Luxembourgish taxes on their income but having their education, health and social needs covered by the country of residence.

 

[Krokodil]

Luxembourg as a country is roughly equivalent in population and area to Oxfordshire. It has a considerable advantage in that some 200,000 workers (of a total workforce of c.450,000) commute in from abroad on a regular basis, paying Luxembourgish taxes on their income but having their education, health and social needs covered by the country of residence.

If they're commuting across the border, presumably they are paying fares as international journeys aren't free. The residents seem to have a win-win setup.

 

[Wolfie]

Putting into search "day pass UK railways" I found, on the trainline site, "BritRail Pass" for £96 to cover two days. Unfortunately it's for non-UK citizens - meaning I suppose if you are lucky enough to live here with an Irish passport you're in luck - so for foreign tourists there IS a price cap!!

Maybe us Brits should be allowed to buy one such pass per month or something along those lines, to cover us if we do have to travel at short notice??

BritRail Pass | Buy your UK Rail Pass Online | Trainline

Buy your BritRail Pass online today and enjoy unlimited train travel in the UK for a fixed price. Learn more about BritRail Pass validity, prices and discounts.

www.thetrainline.com

Hmmm.... A benefit l hadn't thought of for my eagerly awaited Irish passport....

 

[JamesT]

Hmmm.... A benefit l hadn't thought of for my eagerly awaited Irish passport....

Only if you’re planning on giving up your current citizenship and leaving the UK… (from the previous link)

You can use a BritRail Pass if you’re not a UK citizen and have not lived in the UK for the last six months or more.

 

[Helvellyn]

I think £99 would be too low - Penzance to Wick is certainly worth more than that - but I do think there are some silly "headline" fares that are rarely if ever sold and just bring the railway into disrepute. I believe one that came up not so long ago was Penzance to Kyle First Anytime Return which tipped over £1K in an annual fares round without anyone noticing until the Press found it, at which point it was reduced and is now a still totally unreasonable £747.90. I wouldn't be surprised if the ticket had in fact never been sold, or if it had then probably only single figures.

I could see sense in caps of £400 on Standard Anytime Returns or £200 on Singles, and perhaps of £200 on (Super) Off Peak Returns and £100 on singles, though. Kings X to Edinburgh is £200 near enough Anytime Single, and while it's a long way (so it's more reasonable than Manchester-London at £350 return) I can't see any justification in any journey being costlier than that.

£1K clearly ridiculous when a 7-day First Class All Line Rover would have been cheaper!

 

[Energy]

The average fare paid in Jul-Sep 2023 was 28p per mile across the whole network and is at its lowest level since 2004 after inflation is taken into account. A key reason is the loss of high paying business travel.

Average isn't a brilliant measure, some fares will be very cheap (Cornwall is known to be good) and some (XC) will be very high but they'll balance each other out. For a good comparison, you'd need to graph the price per mile vs how frequently it's taken in the journeys matrix, maybe I'll make this once I've figured out a good way to reliably get the distance by rail.

Rail fares might be OK priced overall but consumers have to use tricks like split ticketing and inflexible tickets like advances, a much worse experience.

A £99 maximum for standard class would be a good quick way to control insane tickets short term.

Long term I think advances and off-peak returns should be changed to a 'train from/until xx:xx' system with each route having a price range (e.g £30-40) and the prices dynamically changing based on demand. This should stop the first off-peak train being packed and give a better system for passengers than advances. Advances are great for the operator but trains aren't planes, they should give the passenger some flexibility.

 

[zwk500]

If they're commuting across the border, presumably they are paying fares as international journeys aren't free. The residents seem to have a win-win setup.

Living in a microstate does tend to come with perks. Especially for microstates with close relations to the EU.

A £99 maximum for standard class would be a good quick way to control insane tickets short term.

Would there be an upper mileage limit on £99 capped fares? £99 seems rather an arbitrary number considering some services can run for 5 or 6 hours over 400 miles between the West Country or London and Scotland.

 

[deltic]

If newly generated rail travel is no value to the economy, the same will be true of road travel, in which case why bother with modal shift and instead just prevent motorists from travelling as well ?

I would certainly support that - the sooner they bring in road user charging the better

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Feb 2024 ==

In 2019 air travel had 65% of the Edinburgh-London market. In 2022 rail had 57% of that market. Lumo would very much like to claim credit for thiis.

Yes they have grown the market - London to Edinburgh rail market is about 40% bigger than pre-covid - don't think there is any reduction in air passengers

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Feb 2024 ==

Average isn't a brilliant measure, some fares will be very cheap (Cornwall is known to be good) and some (XC) will be very high but they'll balance each other out. For a good comparison, you'd need to graph the price per mile vs how frequently it's taken in the journeys matrix, maybe I'll make this once I've figured out a good way to reliably get the distance by rail.

The average fare is total passenger revenue divided by total passenger miles so it takes account of the volume of passengers on any particular corridor.

 

[Krokodil]

Yes they have grown the market - London to Edinburgh rail market is about 40% bigger than pre-covid - don't think there is any reduction in air passengers

According to CAA statistics there has been.

 

[Howardh]

Living in a microstate does tend to come with perks. Especially for microstates with close relations to the EU.

Would there be an upper mileage limit on £99 capped fares? £99 seems rather an arbitrary number considering some services can run for 5 or 6 hours over 400 miles between the West Country or London and Scotland.

I chose 99 as it's under 100, a possible psychological barrier! Also think it should be any distance, otherwise it gets complicated and ticketings complicated enough as it is.

In any case, how many (more than now) would travel a greater distance than Glasgow or Edinburgh to London? A few maybe, but they probably wouldn't if the fare was extortionate so it's a £99 gain.

 

[Energy]

Would there be an upper mileage limit on £99 capped fares? £99 seems rather an arbitrary number considering some services can run for 5 or 6 hours over 400 miles between the West Country or London and Scotland.

Are they that much of an issue? Few people ride for that long.

The average fare is total passenger revenue divided by total passenger miles so it takes account of the volume of passengers on any particular corridor.

Exactly, it's an average so it doesn't show extremely low or extremely high fares.

 

[JonathanH]

A £99 maximum for standard class would be a good quick way to control insane tickets short term.

It does nothing for "expensive" flows like Crewe to Chester, York to Leeds, Reading to Paddington etc.

What do you consider to be a better use of subsidy, reducing a day return of 8 miles from £10, or reducing a day return of 250 miles from £120?

 

[Mikw]

Interesting that you think that those who for health or other reasons can't travel should pay higher taxes to subsidise your jollies. That isn't a no from me, it's a hell no.

What next? Free long-haul flights as travel is a right? That is where your 'logic' goes.....

Well, we do the same for education and health. I don't have kids but don't begrudge paying taxes for those that do. Education, and travel, are life enriches.
Same goes for healthcare.
Anyway, don't quite know how you get that from what i said. I said i thought it should it be free but also that it wouldn't happen but a figure such as £30 would be probably fairer. It's not fair at all that people should be walloped if they have to travel. Why put "Jolly"? It's just as likely to be a hospital appointment, isn't it? Or work?

I'm certainly not arguing that "those who for health or other reasons can't travel should pay higher taxes", Quite the opposite, i don't want those on a low wage to be penalised like they are now.