Should we have a "maximum" fare for any journey?

[Howardh]

When you see (even on Split Ticketing) that on Sunday an adult would pay no less than £145 for a return Bristol Temple Meads to Newcastle, makes me think that once a fare reaches three figures it simply puts potential passengers - customers - off and they look elsewhere.

If the maximum you could pay for any return journey (standard class, off-peak) within the UK was at the most £99 (and to me that still looks a lot) regardless of distance would that look a lot better and gain more custom??

Thoughts?

 

[zwk500]

When you see (even on Split Ticketing) that on Sunday an adult would pay no less than £145 for a return Bristol Temple Meads to Newcastle, makes me think that once a fare reaches three figures it simply puts potential passengers - customers - off and they look elsewhere.

If the maximum you could pay for any return journey (standard class, off-peak) within the UK was at the most £99 (and to me that still looks a lot) regardless of distance would that look a lot better and gain more custom??

Thoughts?

As somebody who has reason to travel from Bristol to Newcastle (and back) on an annual basis or so, almost nobody is paying the walk-up fare for that journey. It's a 5hr trip, you're booking a ticket and seat well in advance. If you have been left with very short notice and need to travel, then you'll pay the fare whatever it is.
Capping fares would likely look better, but I suspect the amount of custom it attracts would be not be revenue postive.

 

[Howardh]

As somebody who has reason to travel from Bristol to Newcastle (and back) on an annual basis or so, almost nobody is paying the walk-up fare for that journey. It's a 5hr trip, you're booking a ticket and seat well in advance. If you have been left with very short notice and need to travel, then you'll pay the fare whatever it is.
Capping fares would likely look better, but I suspect the amount of custom it attracts would be not be revenue postive.

I understand the advance argument, and to have a maximum fare may put those advances up to compensate, but if you aren't well off and don't have a car, and there's some kind of urgent reason to travel eg a sudden family emergency, or sudden job interview etc it becomes impossible to make the trip financially, especially if a couple need to travel.

I don't know whether this still exists, but the Netherlands (NS) had a cap, wish I could remember what it was, and London (+ other areas) has a "cap" on daily fares, so I feel the railways should follow suit and stop fleecing those who can't book in advance. I think our fares per mile must be one of the most expensive in Europe?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think £99 would be too low - Penzance to Wick is certainly worth more than that - but I do think there are some silly "headline" fares that are rarely if ever sold and just bring the railway into disrepute. I believe one that came up not so long ago was Penzance to Kyle First Anytime Return which tipped over £1K in an annual fares round without anyone noticing until the Press found it, at which point it was reduced and is now a still totally unreasonable £747.90. I wouldn't be surprised if the ticket had in fact never been sold, or if it had then probably only single figures.

I could see sense in caps of £400 on Standard Anytime Returns or £200 on Singles, and perhaps of £200 on (Super) Off Peak Returns and £100 on singles, though. Kings X to Edinburgh is £200 near enough Anytime Single, and while it's a long way (so it's more reasonable than Manchester-London at £350 return) I can't see any justification in any journey being costlier than that.

 

[Howardh]

I think £99 would be too low - Penzance to Wick is certainly worth more than that - but I do think there are some silly "headline" fares that are rarely if ever sold and just bring the railway into disrepute. I believe one that came up not so long ago was Penzance to Kyle First Anytime Return which tipped over £1K in an annual fares round without anyone noticing until the Press found it, at which point it was reduced and is now a still totally unreasonable £747.90. I wouldn't be surprised if the ticket had in fact never been sold, or if it had then probably only single figures.

I could see sense in caps of £400 on Standard Anytime Returns or £200 on Singles, and perhaps of £200 on (Super) Off Peak Returns and £100 on singles, though. Kings X to Edinburgh is £200 near enough Anytime Single, and while it's a long way (so it's more reasonable than Manchester-London at £350 return) I can't see any justification in any journey being costlier than that.

Good thoughts, I was thinking of day returns which would rule out such long-distance journeys as Penzance - Kyle Of Lochalsh (indeed would they even sell a day-return for that journey as I think it's impossible??).

The quoted £1000 fares as you say were ridiculous, and I agree that while I suggest a £99 cap on OPDR's that could be extended to all ticket types except first-class; personally I reckon if anyone's travelling for more than £400 anytime return then they are on expenses!!

Anyway, I would like to see the next government look at price capping, certainly on off-peak travel and get more off the roads/airlines.

 

[cactustwirly]

I think £99 would be too low - Penzance to Wick is certainly worth more than that - but I do think there are some silly "headline" fares that are rarely if ever sold and just bring the railway into disrepute. I believe one that came up not so long ago was Penzance to Kyle First Anytime Return which tipped over £1K in an annual fares round without anyone noticing until the Press found it, at which point it was reduced and is now a still totally unreasonable £747.90. I wouldn't be surprised if the ticket had in fact never been sold, or if it had then probably only single figures.

I could see sense in caps of £400 on Standard Anytime Returns or £200 on Singles, and perhaps of £200 on (Super) Off Peak Returns and £100 on singles, though. Kings X to Edinburgh is £200 near enough Anytime Single, and while it's a long way (so it's more reasonable than Manchester-London at £350 return) I can't see any justification in any journey being costlier than that.

Those fares are still completely ridiculous.
Super off peak returns should be capped at £100 and Anytime returns to £200.

 

[Hadders]

The Treasury/DfT/RDG disagree. They want to see higher fares at popular times lilke Sunday afternoon whch is why LNER has introduced their trial of removing off-peak fares between London and Newcastle/Berwick upon Tweed/Edinburgh.

 

[zwk500]

I understand the advance argument, and to have a maximum fare may put those advances up to compensate, but if you aren't well off and don't have a car, and there's some kind of urgent reason to travel eg a sudden family emergency, or sudden job interview etc it becomes impossible to make the trip financially, especially if a couple need to travel.

A sudden job interview can either be rescheduled or conducted over zoom/teams. A family emergency I do get but then the railway cannot be all things to all people at all times. Capping prices would require either additional subsidy or higher fares, so you'd have the social argument about whether it is right to penalise other travellers (or even taxpayers generally) more of the time for the occasional individual emergency.

I don't know whether this still exists, but the Netherlands (NS) had a cap, wish I could remember what it was, and London (+ other areas) has a "cap" on daily fares, so I feel the railways should follow suit and stop fleecing those who can't book in advance. I think our fares per mile must be one of the most expensive in Europe?

Worth pointing out that the Netherlands is c.300km North-South and c.200km east-west at it's greatest extents by distance. You could overlay the Netherlands on a map of the UK with Maastricht on Dover and it'd only cover up to about the M62 corridor northwards and Cardiff westwards. NS also doesn't do advances and IIRC fares are strictly by km covered. Their trains are also generally slower than ours, although frequencies are comparable to the UK.

 

[AlastairFraser]

If you have been left with very short notice and need to travel, then you'll pay the fare whatever it is.

Or you'll fly.
For example, Bristol to Newcastle can be booked tomorrow for £87.
The cheapest walk up single (not via London) is £207.

Seriously, something the railway could do better at is last-minute yield management sales.
While I appreciate a lot of non-London intercity/interregional services tend to be very crowded, if the service has plenty of free seats on the day, it would be useful for the staff to be able to input this into a system, which would generate a flash sale price for a certain number of Advances and help provide an affordable way for people to travel with less notice (similar to your Avanti Superfare type scheme).

 

[zwk500]

Or you'll fly.
For example, Bristol to Newcastle can be booked tomorrow for £87.
The cheapest walk up single (not via London) is £207.

Indeed.

Seriously, something the railway could do better at is last-minute yield management sales.
While I appreciate a lot of non-London intercity/interregional services tend to be very crowded, if the service has plenty of free seats on the day, it would be useful for the staff to be able to input this into a system, which would generate a flash sale price for a certain number of Advances and help provide an affordable way for people to travel with less notice (similar to your Avanti Superfare type scheme).

While this is a valid point, specifically on Crosscountry services between Bristol and Birmingham, the issue is very much not selling seats! The Cross Country services are regularly very busy, and yield management would likely push average fares up, not down.

 

[AlastairFraser]

While this is a valid point, specifically on Crosscountry services between Bristol and Birmingham, the issue is very much not selling seats! The Cross Country services are regularly very busy, and yield management would likely push average fares up, not down.

Perhaps a trial introduction on underutilised intercity services would help.

 

[deltic]

Perhaps a trial introduction on underutilised intercity services would help.

Do you want to suggest some such services?

 

[AlastairFraser]

Do you want to suggest some such services?

Sure.
(London) - B'stoke - Winchester - Southampton - Bournemouth - Poole - Weymouth would be a good initial candidate for select services.

 

[zwk500]

Sure.
(London) - B'stoke - Winchester - Southampton - Bournemouth - Poole - Weymouth would be a good initial candidate for select services.

London-Southampton is regularly reported to be among the most heavily loaded commuter corridors, isn't it?

 

[AlastairFraser]

London-Southampton is regularly reported to be among the most heavily loaded commuter corridors, isn't it?

That's why I said select services and only from Basingstoke onwards. Services without a heavy load (of which there will be some) could have a seat sale as described above to entice passengers off XC for those journeys, and improve the finances of the less heavily loaded SWR services.

 

[zwk500]

That's why I said select services and only from Basingstoke onwards. Services without a heavy load (of which there will be some) could have a seat sale as described above to entice passengers off XC for those journeys, and improve the finances of the less heavily loaded SWR services.

Are many people boarding XC at Basingstoke for Southampton? Given SWR don't sell advances I'm not sure how you do yield pricing without basically telling passengers 'you've got no idea what the fare will cost, how lucky are you feeling?'

 

[AlastairFraser]

SWR don't sell advances

Key problem here - why don't they sell Advances to fill more off-peak capacity?

 

[JonathanH]

Key problem here - why don't they sell Advances to fill more off-peak capacity?

SWR do sell advances, including for some short flows like Basingstoke to Southampton.

 

[Mikw]

My Boss had to attend a last minute meeting in London the other week, he went first class from Leicester = £244. Ouch.
Personally i think travel is a right and not a luxury, and it should be free for all. Ok, i know it's not possible, but a maximum of £30 or so would be acceptable i think.

 

[JonathanH]

Personally i think travel is a right and not a luxury, and it should be free for all. Ok, i know it's not possible, but a maximum of £30 or so would be acceptable i think.

How do you control demand in that instance? While it could be argued that travel could be cheaper, some form of rationing to prevent overuse would then be appropriate.

Travel is not a right, that simply isn't practical, but people equally shouldn't be denied some level of travel. Many people don't have the opportunity to do so.

 

[Mikw]

How do you control demand in that instance? While it could be argued that travel could be cheaper, some form of rationing to prevent overuse would then be appropriate.

Travel is not a right, that simply isn't practical, but people equally shouldn't be denied some level of travel. Many people don't have the opportunity to do so.

If travel is not a "right" then what is it? Is travelling to hospital, school, work a privalidge then? I would say in a free society that freedom of movement is definitely a right and nobody should be walloped with a huge amount for needing to travel.
As for controlling demand, that's an interesting one. People often travel if the need to. Yes, you would have a few people travelling all day if they were free to use i'm sure, but in the case of free pensioners bus travel, they only usually travel at certain times of the day. I think, to a large extent, work and societal patterns govern demand.
Of course not in all cases though.
Doesn't sit right with me getting absolutely caned when you have to make a last minute journey, or having to wait around for 3 or 4 hours to get a reasonable price journey home.
I came back from St Pancras to Kettering the other week with a carriage all to myself on a Friday tea time. If i had waited a couple of hours i could've got it for half the price - that would probably have had empty carriages too. Can't see why the earlier one was double the price?

 

[gabrielhj07]

I would say in a free society that freedom of movement is definitely a right and nobody should be walloped with a huge amount for needing to travel.

Yeah movement shouldn't be restricted, but do you work for free? If not why would you expect railwaymen to?

 

[Topological]

Another potential issue emerges here.

Imagine a line that runs from A -> B (£90) -> C(£110 from A, £20 from B) -> D(£114 from A, £24 from B) -> E(£220 from A, £130 from B, £110 from C, £106 from D)

Train company would like to sell A->C, C->D and D->E to maximise revenue

People travelling from A to B pay £90, but those going A to D pay the £99 cap. People going from A to B are annoyed

Train company scraps the direct service and creates a gap between C and D such that only the maximising option remains. Alternatively split at C so the C->E leaves before the A->C arrives.

(If we need to place this into context then lets make this Plymouth (A), Totnes (B), Bristol Temple Meads (C), Bristol Parkway (D) and Sheffield (E) )

 

[Krokodil]

NS also doesn't do advances and IIRC fares are strictly by km covered.

How much is the km rate out of interest?

How do you control demand in that instance?

Personally I'd prefer to increase supply (because four car Voyagers are a pathetic offering) but I realise that the government disagree.

 

[Llanigraham]

My Boss had to attend a last minute meeting in London the other week, he went first class from Leicester = £244. Ouch.
Personally i think travel is a right and not a luxury, and it should be free for all. Ok, i know it's not possible, but a maximum of £30 or so would be acceptable i think.

Are you willing to pay more tax to cover the shortfall in income?

 

[Howardh]

Are you willing to pay more tax to cover the shortfall in income?

Yes.

 

[zwk500]

My Boss had to attend a last minute meeting in London the other week, he went first class from Leicester = £244. Ouch.
Personally i think travel is a right and not a luxury, and it should be free for all. Ok, i know it's not possible, but a maximum of £30 or so would be acceptable i think.

First class is absolutely a luxury not a right. And if travel is a right, why specifically trains? Your examples of going to the hospital etc are covered by the existing services like patient transport minibuses.

How much is the km rate out of interest?

It's on a slightly sliding scale, but the 2h30 journey from Maastricht to Amsterdam is €29. I think the direct distance is 250km but no idea of the rail distance as it dog legs considerably in Limburg.

Personally I'd prefer to increase supply (because four car Voyagers are a pathetic offering) but I realise that the government disagree.

Increasing supply definitely needs to happen.

 

[Starmill]

How much is the km rate out of interest?

It works out to an equivalent of somewhere between 10 and 15 pence I believe. But a single rate isn't just published and stuck to because for what they consider to be short journeys, it's not ridgid. Furthermore there is a supplement which has to be paid for use of ICE, and for "InterCity Direct" services on the high-speed section. If you want to buy your ticket from a ticket desk there's a supplement for that too. There are also a huge number of special concessions, business travel schemes, and even an off peak season ticket which vary rates. There are a lot of private railways and metros, integrated with NS charging to various degrees. NS are now trialling some tickets which cost less and are sold in advance only. Finally Eurostar toward Paris are excluded completely as they're reservation compulsory.

 

[zwk500]

It works out to an equivalent of somewhere between 10 and 15 pence I believe. But a single rate isn't just published and stuck to because for what they consider to be short journeys, it's not ridgid. Furthermore there is a supplement which has to be paid for use of ICE, and for "InterCity Direct" services on the high-speed section. If you want to buy your ticket from a ticket desk there's a supplement for that too. There are also a huge number of special concessions, business travel schemes, and even an off peak season ticket which vary rates. There are a lot of private railways and metros, integrated with NS charging to various degrees. NS are now trialling some tickets which cost less and are sold in advance only. Finally Eurostar toward Paris are excluded completely as they're reservation compulsory.

From this document: https://www.ns.nl/binaries/_ht_1704...ten/ns-tarievenlijst-eng-consumenten-2024.pdf trips are broken up into 'fare units' and there is a sliding scale. 'Fares units' are related to distance but not strictly Km-based, it appears from this map: https://www.ns.nl/binaries/_ht_1701...enkaarten/tariefeenhedenkaart-az-2024-eng.pdf

 

[deltic]

Cheaper travel just generates more travel which is generally not good for the environment. If you want cheap travel you can travel by bus or coach.