CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Bikeman78]

These are all booked 197s. There arent many Sprinters used in the North aside the 158s that interact with the Cambrian services so it would be difficult to sub any of these rather than the Manchester to South Wales.

Ironically most of the routes mentioned have had a 150 on them at least once in the past week. However, in order for them to get from Cardiff to north Wales, clearly they need to work up the Marches. I've done a few runs on them. So long as I get a seat and the heaters work then I'm happy. The engine noise has the advantage that it drowns out the crap that people play out loud on their phones.

 

[Topological]

Ironically most of the routes mentioned have had a 150 on them at least once in the past week. However, in order for them to get from Cardiff to north Wales, clearly they need to work up the Marches. I've done a few runs on them. So long as I get a seat and the heaters work then I'm happy. The engine noise has the advantage that it drowns out the crap that people play out loud on their phones.

That is what the late night Cardiff to Crewe is for.

Not the daytime runs that return back to Cardiff.

 

[BillStampy]

It would be interesting to know how many 197 diagrams there are now that Maesteg has booked workings. And how many they were short by today. Reliability was pretty good over the past few weeks for 197s, even when a MK4 needed cover it was a 197 the majority of the time.

I believe they are all booked 197 (supposing nothing happens) except for 1723 and 2237 from Cardiff which are booked 15X.

 

[Bikeman78]

That is what the late night Cardiff to Crewe is for.

Not the daytime runs that return back to Cardiff.

That's booked a 153. Yes you could attach extra units but it would be a total waste for a handful of passengers.

 

[Caaardiff]

If a 150 ends up on the Marches it's likely down to no other units being available at the time. The list of reasons that could happen is endless.
Manchesters depart approx xx50 and maesteg and Cheltenham around xx05 so difficult to swap at Cardiff.

 

[childwallblues]

Also currently on services like Holyhead to Manchester Airport and Chester to Liverpool.

Liverpool had 197115 and 197105 this morning.

 

[Topological]

If a 150 ends up on the Marches it's likely down to no other units being available at the time. The list of reasons that could happen is endless.
Manchesters depart approx xx50 and maesteg and Cheltenham around xx05 so difficult to swap at Cardiff.

IF it is a planned diagram from the night before then it is not about what is available at the time, you just do not send the 197 out on the first run it did today and send it on the first run that the 150 did today.

To a layperson you must see how it just looks like a string of excuses for inadequate stock on what should be TfWs premium route.

The fact there were 3 cars on the Liverpool makes it all the more galling.

Lets not forget these trains to Manchester are supposed to be 5 car 197s by now.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

IF it is a planned diagram from the night before then it is not about what is available at the time, you just do not send the 197 out on the first run it did today and send it on the first run that the 150 did today.

To a layperson you must see how it just looks like a string of excuses for inadequate stock on what should be TfWs premium route.

Lets not forget these trains to Manchester are supposed to be 5 car 197s by now.

Yes, agreed. The "would you like a 150 or no train at all" argument is invalid when guaranteed 67 or 197 is what TfW have promised for yonks now.

The fact there were 3 cars on the Liverpool makes it all the more galling.

Absolutely. And 2 or 3 197s used on the Borderlands.

 

[craigybagel]

IF it is a planned diagram from the night before then it is not about what is available at the time, you just do not send the 197 out on the first run it did today and send it on the first run that the 150 did today.

It's not just where they start, but where they end. It's like chess, you need to think several steps ahead. They really don't send 150s out just for the sake of it

 

[FrodshamJnct]

Liverpool had 197115 and 197105 this morning.

Yes, that was my point.

 

[GWVillager]

I’m not really sure whether this should go here or the Mk4 thread, but is standard plus used as a de facto first class section when a relevant 197 substitutes for a Mk4? If not, why? Announcements could compensate for the lack of signage.

 

[Lurcheroo]

To a layperson you must see how it just looks

The vast majority of layman don’t check what units are running where to compare to what they are on and their suitability for that route, and don’t care for it either, they just care if they get a seat or not for the most part.

It's not just where they start, but where they end. It's like chess, you need to think several steps ahead. They really don't send 150s out just for the sake of it

Perhaps a bit difficult for laymen to understand

 

[Topological]

So two 150s booked on the last two trains from Carmarthen to Manchester tomorrow. That must be a last-minute change as well?

The vast majority of laypersons do notice that their train is old and slow versus the newer 197s and the better 175s. Yes, they would not know which type of train it was but it is pretty condescending to say they would not care about the fact that 150s are clearly unsuitable. Further, no one should have to be saying "at least a train turned up".

There is a maxim that if something is not broken do not try to fix it.

1W13 is still not allocated yet, so let's see what is on the only one day to be Mk4 diagram that starts in Swansea on a weekday.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

A pair of 153s, a 197, and a 158 on the Cheltenhams today

 

[Topological]

1W13 is 197011 which should cope well with this journey but is going to be too small later in the diagram. Be good when more trains are available, but today seems they are a few 197s short in the south.

 

[sd0733]

There are 34 booked 197 diagrams, 7 of them today are covered by various 15x units plus 3 2 cars on 3 car diagrams. Not sure why availability is so poor but with around 20% short there's guaranteed to be some runs what would appear without full facts strange allocations. It would be far easier and better for everyone if all the booked turns were 197s particularly as there's quite a few splits and joins in the evenings so having some running as 15x causes headaches all round so will always be last resort. Unfortunately the 197 fleet is also a headache of their own with persistent issues

 

[craigybagel]

There is a maxim that if something is not broken do not try to fix it.

What makes you think people aren't trying to fix it?

 

[Jamesrob637]

There are 34 booked 197 diagrams, 7 of them today are covered by various 15x units plus 3 2 cars on 3 car diagrams. Not sure why availability is so poor but with around 20% short there's guaranteed to be some runs what would appear without full facts strange allocations. It would be far easier and better for everyone if all the booked turns were 197s particularly as there's quite a few splits and joins in the evenings so having some running as 15x causes headaches all round so will always be last resort. Unfortunately the 197 fleet is also a headache of their own with persistent issues

Would you rather a (not-so, in the case of TfW) manky 150 or a cancellation?

 

[sd0733]

Would you rather a (not-so, in the case of TfW) manky 150 or a cancellation?

Not really sure where I said I'd rather cancel it, was just an explanation!
Personally I don't mind the 150s anyway especially in multiple

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What makes you think people aren't trying to fix it?

Exactly, they really are. Believe there's in the region of 700 work-streams going on to try and get things better on the 197 fleet.

 

[Topological]

What makes you think people aren't trying to fix it?

All I know is someone broke a working 175 offering, which is what the maxim applies to.

We had regular 3 carriage trains between South Wales and Manchester every hour (mix of 2 and 3 car), now there's promises of a fix but a regular 3 car service has not run for a long time and there certainly isn't an hourly service any more.

(I think there actually was a 150 diagram during the 175 days, but cannot remember if that had been removed by the end. It was also not unheard of for the 06:27 from Manchester to have a 150 on it when I was a regular, was normally a 2 car 175 though)

 

[Anonymous10]

All I know is someone broke a working 175 offering, which is what the maxim applies to.

We had regular 3 carriage trains between South Wales and Manchester every hour (mix of 2 and 3 car), now there's promises of a fix but a regular 3 car service has not run for a long time and there certainly isn't an hourly service any more.

(I think there actually was a 150 diagram during the 175 days, but cannot remember if that had been removed by the end. It was also not unheard of for the 06:27 from Manchester to have a 150 on it when I was a regular, was normally a 2 car 175 though)

Manchester to South Wales was always a mix of 2 and 3 carriages.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Manchester to South Wales was always a mix of 2 and 3 carriages.

Would still prefer 4x150 over 2x197 this time of year, but might be singing a different tune on a 30C July day.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Yes, agreed. The "would you like a 150 or no train at all" argument is invalid when guaranteed 67 or 197 is what TfW have promised for yonks now.

Would you rather a (not-so, in the case of TfW) manky 150 or a cancellation?

There we go, I told you someone would say it

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What makes you think people aren't trying to fix it?

I think perhaps you misread, he knows people are trying to fix things but insinuates that there was nothing to fix in the first place - re. the 175s being suitable trains. The old saying of don’t mess with a good thing, etc.

Not my opinion, (I’m neutral, liking and missing the 175s very much but also seeing the vast benefits the 197s bring) I’m just explaining.

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Would still prefer 4x150 over 2x197 this time of year, but might be singing a different tune on a 30C July day.

I think even I, a 150 hater, would struggle to complain at 4x150! 8 carriages would be very spacious

Seriously though, a 2-197 is definitely quite cosy. The consistent 5-197 formations will make a world of difference.

 

[Topological]

Manchester to South Wales was always a mix of 2 and 3 carriages.

Which is in my post?

The current service has less 3 cars from Swansea to Manchester than the timetable used to have.

Are there any other facts that anyone wants to confirm.

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Would still prefer 4x150 over 2x197 this time of year, but might be singing a different tune on a 30C July day.

Yes, that would be ok

But the relevant comparison is a 2-car 150. Would be much better to have more carriages because that means more capacity, but it is 2-car 150s that keep getting sent to Manchester.

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I think perhaps you misread, he knows people are trying to fix things but insinuates that there was nothing to fix in the first place - re. the 175s being suitable trains. The old saying of don’t mess with a good thing, etc.

Not my opinion, (I’m neutral, liking and missing the 175s very much but also seeing the vast benefits the 197s bring) I’m just explaining.

Indeed, that is how the phrase is normally used.

The 197s will be better when they are regulars and have 2 toilets (which means being run in multiple) but that is a long way off.

The 197s will not offer the connectivity the old timetable did until the Cardiff connections work at the very least. That is another element that did not need fixing.

 

[Caaardiff]

I don't know how many times it needs to be said and it's been highlighted many times over recent months. There hasn't been a 150 diagrammed to Manchester for quite some time.
Operationally TFW have a fleet of 5 types that could work Manchester services and work mainline services. Sometimes things go wrong and trains end up where they shouldn't. They end up working services the following day that may be 197 diagrams for that reason.
The 197s aren't reliable, and neither are the mk4s. In an ideal world everything would be reliable and there would be enough slack in the fleet to cover like for like when things go wrong. But that slack isn't there and the go to fleet for backup is 153s and 150s.
It's not as simple as just put the 15x om local routes and use other trains. That practice is done regularly but doesn't get picked up on here, but it also isn't always possible.

As for 175s. People seriously need to let go. It was impossible under the plans and budget to run them alongside each other for any great period of time. There were 27 175s vs the current 44 197s. The timetable is very different and as said time and time again there are more 197s coming online, mainly 3 cars. I think there are currently 14 in service. From the June TT change nearly all Manchester services will be 3-5 car

I absolutely agree that 150s shouldn't be going long distance, ive had to endure the things myself, but the reality is sometimes they have to. I'd rather be on a 15x than have to wait for the next 2 car 197.

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The 197s will not offer the connectivity the old timetable did until the Cardiff connections work at the very least. That is another element that did not need fixing.

Another own goal in my opinion just to get the Mk4 vanity project in service. The keolis franchise sold the over ambitious dream to the Welsh Government who have no idea how the railway runs but then let the ideas run away with them.
The plan should have been to rebuild a simpler, reliable and consistent service after Arriva.
Valleys people don't want shiny new trains appearing every 5 minutes. They just want a regular, reliable service with enough carriages.
The mk4s are great but at great expense to the reliability and performance of cardiff central as well as huge pressures om Depots to keep the aged old things running, just to say 'look at our fancy first class'.

 

[Jamesrob637]

There we go, I told you someone would say it

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Feb 2024 ==


I think perhaps you misread, he knows people are trying to fix things but insinuates that there was nothing to fix in the first place - re. the 175s being suitable trains. The old saying of don’t mess with a good thing, etc.

Not my opinion, (I’m neutral, liking and missing the 175s very much but also seeing the vast benefits the 197s bring) I’m just explaining.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Feb 2024 ==


I think even I, a 150 hater, would struggle to complain at 4x150! 8 carriages would be very spacious

Seriously though, a 2-197 is definitely quite cosy. The consistent 5-197 formations will make a world of difference.

You're funny I meant 4 carriages of Class 150 versus 2 carriages of Class 197. I don't mind the 197s, however my journeys on them hitherto have all been less than 30mins.

 

[Express380]

I don't know how many times it needs to be said and it's been highlighted many times over recent months. There hasn't been a 150 diagrammed to Manchester for quite some time.

Saturdays 20:05 Cardiff to Manchester Piccadilly is one
Sundays 13:30/14:30/20:30 from Picc to Cardiff (And beyond) are 3 three others
There definitely is still diagrammed 150 services to Manchester though admittedly not on weekdays

 

[Caaardiff]

Saturdays 20:05 Cardiff to Manchester Piccadilly is one
Sundays 13:30/14:30/20:30 from Picc to Cardiff (And beyond) are 3 three others
There definitely is still diagrammed 150 services to Manchester though admittedly not on weekdays

OK yes, i stand corrected there. But Saturday night is never going to be busy and is a balancing move for Sundays heart of Wales as there is no 2155 Crewe, and Sundays are 3-5 car 15x. The only reason for that is because of the reduced valleys timetable on a Sunday which means 3-5 car 15x capacity can be provided on the marches. Otherwise it would be 2-3 car 197s.
But the general weekday and Saturday workings aren't.

 

[Jez]

Perhaps TFW should not have increased the 197 diagrams from 31 to 34 if they werent confident they could deliver. 20% seems a lot of diagrams to be subbed or uncovered. Maybe they should have kept 150's on all Maestegs. And before anyone says the 150s are needed elsewhere, well there are enough spare to cover for 197's on Milford to Manchester etc.

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There we go, I told you someone would say it

Haha. I was waiting for that to be said too!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Feb 2024 ==

Would still prefer 4x150 over 2x197 this time of year, but might be singing a different tune on a 30C July day.

A year ago we were told that 150s wouldnt be on long distance services to Manchester etc 'for much longer'. And yet they still are. Granted not as frequent as they were a year ago, but definately more often this week than the last few weeks/months.

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I don't know how many times it needs to be said and it's been highlighted many times over recent months. There hasn't been a 150 diagrammed to Manchester for quite some time.

And yet they still quite often appear on this route!

I accept that there may be no other choice but the problem is why are the 197s so unreliable and why do they keep diagramming them for lesser routes like the Maesteg Branch line when long distance services get 150s or pairs of 153s.

 

[GWVillager]

All I know is someone broke a working 175 offering, which is what the maxim applies to.

Except it wasn’t working. Overcrowding was common, demand was stifled, the trains were probably expensive to operate all whilst providing an inadequate quality of service.

Another own goal in my opinion just to get the Mk4 vanity project in service. The keolis franchise sold the over ambitious dream to the Welsh Government who have no idea how the railway runs but then let the ideas run away with them.
The plan should have been to rebuild a simpler, reliable and consistent service after Arriva.
Valleys people don't want shiny new trains appearing every 5 minutes. They just want a regular, reliable service with enough carriages.
The mk4s are great but at great expense to the reliability and performance of cardiff central as well as huge pressures om Depots to keep the aged old things running, just to say 'look at our fancy first class'.

I feel like you’re missing the point slightly. Yes, the current Valley passengers don’t want shiny new trains every 5 minutes, but of course they’re not too bothered, they’re already using the service. Modal share is quite low, however, and the WG has (not incorrectly) concluded that shiny new trains every 5 minutes are wanted by people who aren’t using the railway at present.

Obviously, there is a lot of criticism to be made regarding the execution of this grand plan. But you (not directed at anyone in particular) are deluding yourself if you think things were fine before and shouldn’t have been meddled with. The 197s have certainly had a bumpy introduction, but the end result should be vastly better than ATW.