North Downs Full Line Closure 10th Feb to 18th Feb

[DelW]

As for the stranded train, here is a couple of photos taken on Wednesday evening.

I suppose it isn't in the way of anything much, since 6/7 is normally only used by the Farnham shuttle, which arrives and departs at the north end. It will mean GWR are a train short when the line reopens though.

 

[infobleep]

I suppose it isn't in the way of anything much, since 6/7 is normally only used by the Farnham shuttle, which arrives and departs at the north end. It will mean GWR are a train short when the line reopens though.

Farnham trains have been using platform 8 this week, whenever I've seen them waiting. I assume the Ascot trains tomorrow will do just the same.

Not as if platform 8 is required by GWR.

With regards to being short, I wonder which diagram will be cancelled, unless they have a spare turbo from somewhere they can borrow.

 

[Deepgreen]

With the best will in the world, the number of people using the North Downs Line who are affected by the additional bus replacement between Guildford and Gatwick is small. It isn't term time so students and schoolchildren aren't affected. My colleagues who commute from Guildford are just working at home this week. Anyone going to Gatwick from west of Reading will already have been put off by bus replacement. Just who is going to raise this to the level of a national scandal?

How many people even know that the reason there aren't trains between Guildford and Redhill this week is because Network Rail haven't cleared Turbos to run empty between Basingstoke and Guildford, which seems to be what you are calling a scandal? How many people know it was a late change of plan?


Yes, but that involves influencers getting aware of issues. Someone turning up at Gatwick wanting Guildford or Reading just finds they have to catch a bus and gets on with it. They might post somewhere on social media that they have to get a bus, but at what point does that become out of the ordinary in the way you are suggesting?

The fact that buses are running on the line this week means awkward journeys for people directly affected for a week, but I'm not convinced it destroys GWR's brand image.

Even on this social media, there isn't that much interest in the issue.

As has been said up-thread, it isn't only about this specific closure but about the far wider (i.e. national) decreasing ability, or willingness, of the overall (national) railway to run trains when buses might possibly be an option. Working from home is fine for those who can, but many obviously can't.

 

[Craig1122]

I think the root of all this is the declining ability of the railway to provide the flexibility to operate part/alternative routes. Stock gauge clearance becomes ever more specific and service flexibilty drops accordingly. It is a creeping feature of today's railway that substitute buses are turned to all too often (if they are actually available, of course). Not very long ago, the concept of not running trains over a substantial part of a route like this (i.e. at least Gatwick to Guildford in this case) would have been almost inconceivable, but now... The railway is steadily gaining a hard-to-shake reputation for unreliability, with more and more service suspensions for engineering, weather, etc., such that many passengers' subconcious thoughts may well be putting rail travel into the 'avoid if possible' category. As a career railwayman and staunch supporter of the mode from a strategic viewpoint, it is saddening,

My thoughts entirely. I'm in the same category as you but increasingly find I'm asking myself if I can trust the railway for a journey. And that's even when it is supposed to be running. For example I'm now very unwilling to trust a last train anywhere given the number of times they seem to be cancelled last minute whereas in the past they would be pretty much sacrosanct.

Each individual case like this will have very valid reasons why something better can't be done. But the cumulative effect is a network you can't rely on.

 

[Benjwri]

I think the root of all this is the declining ability of the railway to provide the flexibility to operate part/alternative routes. Stock gauge clearance becomes ever more specific and service flexibilty drops accordingly. It is a creeping feature of today's railway that substitute buses are turned to all too often (if they are actually available, of course). Not very long ago, the concept of not running trains over a substantial part of a route like this (i.e. at least Gatwick to Guildford in this case) would have been almost inconceivable, but now... The railway is steadily gaining a hard-to-shake reputation for unreliability, with more and more service suspensions for engineering, weather, etc., such that many passengers' subconcious thoughts may well be putting rail travel into the 'avoid if possible' category. As a career railwayman and staunch supporter of the mode from a strategic viewpoint, it is saddening,

Although I find it quite hard to understand what you are suggesting should've been done to fix this. To get around this blockade would be very complex, and cost a great deal of money in clearing Turbos for routes they are unlikely to ever use again. There is providing a reliable service, and then there is spending silly amounts of money that don't justify the benefits. These engineering works have been in journey planners for months, so all these complaints about other issues on the railway aren't really valid here.

As for gauge clearances, its all well and good taking a lax view on them, but the majority of rules exist because of a past incident. It's all well and good taking a lax approach to it until one of those turbos hits a platform, tunnel or bridge. Then suddenly another line is closed for weeks, and you've potentially got injuries.

 

[DelW]

Although I find it quite hard to understand what you are suggesting should've been done to fix this. To get around this blockade would be very complex, and cost a great deal of money in clearing Turbos for routes they are unlikely to ever use again. There is providing a reliable service, and then there is spending silly amounts of money that don't justify the benefits. These engineering works have been in journey planners for months, so all these complaints about other issues on the railway aren't really valid here.

But much of the annoyance expressed above is that journey planners showed trains running east of Guildford during the works, until just four days before the closure began. As per various posts above, GWR's planned timetable had to be torn up and abandoned when NR produced their last-minute refusal to allow Turbos to run via Basingstoke and Woking. That wrecked regular users' plans when it was too late for them to be revised.

 

[infobleep]

But much of the annoyance expressed above is that journey planners showed trains running east of Guildford during the works, until just four days before the closure began. As per various posts above, GWR's planned timetable had to be torn up and abandoned when NR produced their last-minute refusal to allow Turbos to run via Basingstoke and Woking. That wrecked regular users' plans when it was too late for them to be revised.

I suppose the question is, why did it take untill just over 4 days before the closure to realise the guaging issue?

Was it simply someone made a mistake by not noticing the issue?

As for money, some years ago Southeastern trains ran into Waterloo using the former international platforms, during one engineering block.

Staff had to either be route conducted or learn the route. That must have cost but it was precovid.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

As has been said up-thread, it isn't only about this specific closure but about the far wider (i.e. national) decreasing ability, or willingness, of the overall (national) railway to run trains when buses might possibly be an option. Working from home is fine for those who can, but many obviously can't.

Its becoming evident that passengers are an inconvenience when engineering works are happening and quite frankly with the £2 fare if there is an equivalent bus service it would be far cheaper than a train rail replacement bus.

 

[MrJeeves]

I often refer to replacement buses as my local free community bus service.

I think it's rather safe to assume a substantial proportion of local passengers simply don't bother to purchase tickets for rail replacement services, or at least that was my impression throughout several week-long Brighton mainline closures I've experienced.

 

[Murray J]

Well I decided to get the rail replacement bus. I looked up online where it might go from and Google pointed me to a Gatwick Express poster that seemed to be out of date and showed the railway station, footways and roads but not the airport building clearly enough.


So I thought as it's close to the time I will just use the exit to the taxis, coaches and buses but that exit was closed.


I could see no simple way for passengers to enter the station though, other than a long walk through the airport itself, unless they are directing passengers through here but I didn't see any card readers or ticket barriers.

I've taken this rail replacement service 4 times in the last few months (including twice in the last week) so I might be able to assist here:
I'm assuming you're referring to this but in case you aren't the rail replacements depart from the far end bus stop in the South Terminal taxi drop-off.
The first time I did the journey they had a back passage (normally only for staff) open between the stop and the station but only for passengers travelling in the direction between the station and the stop.

I don't think the walk through the airport is too long, it only takes about 5 minutes and isn't too poorly signposted although given I've typically been travelling either in the evening or mid-morning it's possible it gets busier than I've seen.

 

[infobleep]

I've taken this rail replacement service 4 times in the last few months (including twice in the last week) so I might be able to assist here:
I'm assuming you're referring to this but in case you aren't the rail replacements depart from the far end bus stop in the South Terminal taxi drop-off.
The first time I did the journey they had a back passage (normally only for staff) open between the stop and the station but only for passengers travelling in the direction between the station and the stop.

I don't think the walk through the airport is too long, it only takes about 5 minutes and isn't too poorly signposted although given I've typically been travelling either in the evening or mid-morning it's possible it gets busier than I've seen.

If I want platform 5 or 7, I would rather not have to walk an additional 5 minutes through all the people wanting the airport.

What is wrong with making things easier for passengers or is that not the point of the large additional circulating area above platform 3 to 7?

In the station they try to direct people wanting the airport one way and passengers arriving a different way so why not apply this to passengers arriving on a rail replacement bus rather than making them go through the airport.

If someone has a good justifiable reason as to why its not good having passengers take a shorter route then please post here.

Why do they not make passengers for the bus go the longer way round. It's only an extra 5 minutes?

 

[Deepgreen]

I really think that one of the railway's biggest problems is its communications, in all forms; internal and external. So much information is there and is not communicated properly, resulting in poor decisions regarding the planning and operation of the railway in a vast range of arenas. Modern technology has both given us the ability to disseminate information so much better, yet has provided such an overwhelming amount of it that we don't seem to handle it properly.

 

[The Planner]

I really think that one of the railway's biggest problems is its communications, in all forms; internal and external. So much information is there and is not communicated properly, resulting in poor decisions regarding the planning and operation of the railway in a vast range of arenas. Modern technology has both given us the ability to disseminate information so much better, yet has provided such an overwhelming amount of it that we don't seem to handle it properly.

Data rich, information poor as they say.

 

[DelW]

Despite NR's claims (from the press release quoted in post 77 on this thread:

Feltham and Wokingham Resignalling

Possession 10th to 18th February Reading - Bracknell / Guildford to commission Wokingham area, the final part of the whole scheme. week long closure for that is ridiculous, its a dozens signals 5 or 6 point ends and a couple of barriers - testing easily achievable in a weekend

www.railforums.co.uk

that "Network Rail and South Western Railway have officially switched on new signalling equipment to bring more reliable journeys to customers travelling between Reading, London and Guildford"), this coming weekend the Reading to Guildford section is once again closed and bus-substituted all weekend.

Is this still completing Wokingham signalling works, or something else? Either way, it's a pity that whatever it is couldn't have been done during the recent prolonged full closure. It really seems that no-one cares much about this line or its remaining passengers.

 

[infobleep]

Despite NR's claims (from the press release quoted in post 77 on this thread:

Feltham and Wokingham Resignalling

Possession 10th to 18th February Reading - Bracknell / Guildford to commission Wokingham area, the final part of the whole scheme. week long closure for that is ridiculous, its a dozens signals 5 or 6 point ends and a couple of barriers - testing easily achievable in a weekend

www.railforums.co.uk

that "Network Rail and South Western Railway have officially switched on new signalling equipment to bring more reliable journeys to customers travelling between Reading, London and Guildford"), this coming weekend the Reading to Guildford section is once again closed and bus-substituted all weekend.

Is this still completing Wokingham signalling works, or something else? Either way, it's a pity that whatever it is couldn't have been done during the recent prolonged full closure. It really seems that no-one cares much about this line or its remaining passengers.

I imagine if it was done in the recent resignalling it would have been done today and tomorrow.

I assume, despite the lesiure travel increase in general, across UK railways, that Monday to Friday is still more popular than Saturday and Sunday.

At least it is possible to run trains this weekend. Only one an hour between Guildford and Gatwick Airport but better than none.

Interestingly thought after midnight, aka Sunday morning, to get to Gatwick Airport they recommend you get the 0:14 RRB to North Camp, which arrives at 0:34 and then catch the 0:49 RRB to Gatwick Airport, arriving into Gatwick Airport at 02:49.

The fact it passes through Guildford at 01:24, is neither here nor there, clearly.

 

[boiledbeans2]

I suppose it isn't in the way of anything much, since 6/7 is normally only used by the Farnham shuttle, which arrives and departs at the north end. It will mean GWR are a train short when the line reopens though.

How did they recover the dead train on platform 6/7? Checking RTT for this morning, the following might be the dead train going home?

Realtime Trains | 3Z53 0400 Guildford to Reading | 19/02/2024

Real-time train running information for 3Z53 0400 departure from Guildford to Reading on 19/02/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[JN114]

How did they recover the dead train on platform 6/7? Checking RTT for this morning, the following might be the dead train going home?

Realtime Trains | 3Z53 0400 Guildford to Reading | 19/02/2024

Real-time train running information for 3Z53 0400 departure from Guildford to Reading on 19/02/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

It was 165117 rescuing the stranded 165118. There were a series of 3Zxx route proving trains, the last of these round trips was commandeered to go recover 165118.

 

[swt_passenger]

Despite NR's claims (from the press release quoted in post 77 on this thread:

Feltham and Wokingham Resignalling

Possession 10th to 18th February Reading - Bracknell / Guildford to commission Wokingham area, the final part of the whole scheme. week long closure for that is ridiculous, its a dozens signals 5 or 6 point ends and a couple of barriers - testing easily achievable in a weekend

www.railforums.co.uk

that "Network Rail and South Western Railway have officially switched on new signalling equipment to bring more reliable journeys to customers travelling between Reading, London and Guildford"), this coming weekend the Reading to Guildford section is once again closed and bus-substituted all weekend.

Is this still completing Wokingham signalling works, or something else? Either way, it's a pity that whatever it is couldn't have been done during the recent prolonged full closure. It really seems that no-one cares much about this line or its remaining passengers.

Don’t they often have a closure after initial reopening to double check track alignment and do follow up tamping etc?

 

[infobleep]

Don’t they often have a closure after initial reopening to double check track alignment and do follow up tamping etc?

Your right they do. For some reason I thought the gap between checking was longer than 6 days but my memory might be playing tricks.

 

[Deepgreen]

I see the NDL is yet again closed his weekend from Guildford to Reading. However, trains ARE running from Guildford eastwards, so it CAN be done after all! After the very recent full line closure for a week, it is concerning that yet more works are being done that people may well say could have been done during the closure.

 

[JonathanH]

However, trains ARE running from Guildford eastwards, so it CAN be done after all!

It was made clear that the issue before was a nine day closure. This weekend is only two days.

After the very recent full line closure for a week, it is concerning that yet more works are being done that people may well say could have been done during the closure.

What if nine days wasn't enough or there was some issue that didn't fit within the critical path for the project? It isn't unknown for there to be a weekend of engineering work before and after a block closure to deal with preparation, and snagging. The project being done is major replacement of signalling.

 

[Bread & cheese]

According to the Reading Buses Service Updates page, Wokingham level crossing is closed tomorrow for the installation of a new footbridge:
Wokingham level crossing will be closed on Saturday 24 February 2024 due to a new footbridge being installed. There will be two different diversions in the morning and afternoon

Service updates - Reading Buses

www.reading-buses.co.uk

 

[Deepgreen]

It was made clear that the issue before was a nine day closure. This weekend is only two days.


What if nine days wasn't enough or there was some issue that didn't fit within the critical path for the project? It isn't unknown for there to be a weekend of engineering work before and after a block closure to deal with preparation, and snagging. The project being done is major replacement of signalling.

Yes, that was an issue, but planning can overcome these things if there is a will. A nine day closure is a long time, and I would be surprised if more could not have been fitted in, again with proper planning. A footbridge installation should have no interference with a signalling project. Hey ho...the NDL is becoming such a fitful service that perhaps passenger numbers will dwindle from frustration.

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes, that was an issue, but planning can overcome these things if there is a will. A nine day closure is a long time, and I would be surprised if more could not have been fitted in, again with proper planning. A footbridge installation should have no interference with a signalling project. Hey ho...the NDL is becoming such a fitful service that perhaps passenger numbers will dwindle from frustration.

At Wokingham, the “resignalling project” included significant track, junction and level crossing hardware replacement, with rail cranes, RRVs and engineering trains all over the place, on both routes at the junction. I’d think it was highly likely a footbridge installation would have conflicted.

Edited later to add:

I’ve also just read elsewhere the suggestion that the new footbridge span will have to be delivered by road as far as the level crossing, and then moved down the railway to its location, ie through the middle of last weeks major junction replacement worksite…

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Yes, that was an issue, but planning can overcome these things if there is a will. A nine day closure is a long time, and I would be surprised if more could not have been fitted in, again with proper planning. A footbridge installation should have no interference with a signalling project. Hey ho...the NDL is becoming such a fitful service that perhaps passenger numbers will dwindle from frustration.

You are presumably just making assumptions here about the footbridge having no interference with the resiganlling project.

As pointed out by another post the footbridge requires to be moved to site by rail which wasn’t possible whilst the signalling works were taking place especially as these works also included track renewals.

The railway always looks to optimise engineering possessions but it isn’t always possible to do everything at once as is the case here.

 

[Deepgreen]

You are presumably just making assumptions here about the footbridge having no interference with the resiganlling project.

As pointed out by another post the footbridge requires to be moved to site by rail which wasn’t possible whilst the signalling works were taking place especially as these works also included track renewals.

The railway always looks to optimise engineering possessions but it isn’t always possible to do everything at once as is the case here.

Yes, I was making assumptions. Obviously not everything can be done at once, but the NDL has been subject to so many closures recently (incuding two week-plus-long blocks) that it seems remarkable that more efficient use could not be made of the time. BTW, I am far from convinced that the railway DOES always seek to optimise possessions, as the option to put buses on seems to be getting more and more attractive (whether enough buses can be found or not).

 

[DelW]

Stuving has posted a photo of the Wokingham works in the Feltham and Wokingham resignalling thread in the infrastructure forum (post 87):

Feltham and Wokingham Resignalling

Possession 10th to 18th February Reading - Bracknell / Guildford to commission Wokingham area, the final part of the whole scheme. week long closure for that is ridiculous, its a dozens signals 5 or 6 point ends and a couple of barriers - testing easily achievable in a weekend

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[infobleep]

I'm not sure when was the last time the line between Three Bridges Lewes and Brighton was closed, whilst the line between Byfleet and New Haw and Clapham Junction was closed, and the line between Reading and Guildford was closed.

Today's journey from Guildford to Haywards Heath was timetabled to be 1 hour 58 minutes, which included about a 25 minute wait at Three Bridges for the bus.

Going via Clapham Junction was even longer, as there was a diversion for 30 minutes on the train.

Trains to Clapham Junction left at x34 and x49 and trains to Gatwick Airport x37, which nothing in-between.

I appreciate they need to do the engineering works but sometimes it would be helpful if they weren't all the same weekend, two weekends in a row but I appreciate these things can't always be avoided.

At least there was 2 fast trains to Clapham Junction from Guildford as usually it is just 1 on Saturdays.

 

[Minstral25]

Yes, that was an issue, but planning can overcome these things if there is a will. A nine day closure is a long time, and I would be surprised if more could not have been fitted in, again with proper planning. A footbridge installation should have no interference with a signalling project. Hey ho...the NDL is becoming such a fitful service that perhaps passenger numbers will dwindle from frustration.

It appears they did plan to run services during the 9 day blockade but needed some trains to run back to Reading depot each night. The route was not permitted at the last minute due to modifications to the class 165's since the previous use.

Totally agree they should have planned getting the trains permitted over the route before the closure but understanding the paperwork issue was only identified a few days before the blockade. GWR have promised to update the paperwork for use at any future date.

 

[infobleep]

It appears they did plan to run services during the 9 day blockade but needed some trains to run back to Reading depot each night. The route was not permitted at the last minute due to modifications to the class 165's since the previous use.

Totally agree they should have planned getting the trains permitted over the route before the closure but understanding the paperwork issue was only identified a few days before the blockade. GWR have promised to update the paperwork for use at any future date.

It is likely they would the need to modify the trains?

I can't imagine there will be many week longer closures coming up having had two recently.