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There is a lot of commuting traffic on the line from Redhill to Guildford & Woking and vice versa (For example County Hall is now in Reigate but a lot of staff live in Guildford and Woking areas). This type of traffic is badly affected by the closure, with commuting time from Redhill to Guildford 2 and half times longer. There are also a lot of Redhill to Reading commuters whose overall commuting time has doubled to over 5 and half hours (I personally know 2 people who do this 2 or 3 times a week).
Bus from Redhill to Reading is two separate bus services that do not connect which make this much worse.
it is possible to travel via Clapham Junction. It is slower but it avoids two buses at least.
I don't know if they have relaxed any time restrictions if you travel that way. For example some train tickets might have evening restrictions from Clapham Junxtion but don't if you avoid that route.
As for knowledge of the closure, people were told that it would be open from Guildford to Gatwick and trains would be running. It was only on 6th Feb 24 that the notice went out to say buses. So people had no chance to replan. The original notice issued in January (I think) said that it would be Trains from Gatwick to Guildford - snip attached View attachment 152174
Yes and the reasons this has changed has been well documented, yes it’s not ideal but also the railway is short of funding at the moment and can’t afford to pay for the contractors to do the work twice if the works were postponed (once for an aborted set of works this week and once for a replanned set of works).
Well, quite. But would you also argue this is Network Rail's finest hour, given these works have been in their calendar for a very long time, yet, at pretty much at the last minute in "railway time", there's been a pretty massive "oops! sorry 'bout that" which screwed the plans of other parties to mitigate the effects of the line closure?
Clearly GWR had planned to to run a train service from Guildford to Gatwick and, no doubt, had made the arrangements necessary to keep the 165s running throughout the closure. Which is for the greater good, putting on one side whether it was the most cost-effective way of approaching this (the most cost-effective approach of course being to permanently shut down the line entirely, so be careful what you wish for).
Either Network Rail's IT isn't joined up or a NR employee/department was asleep at the wheel. A planning failure either way.
Well, quite. But would you also argue this is Network Rail's finest hour, given these works have been in their calendar for a very long time, yet, at pretty much at the last minute in "railway time", there's been a pretty massive "oops! sorry 'bout that" which screwed the plans of other parties to mitigate the effects of the line closure?
Clearly GWR had planned to to run a train service from Guildford to Gatwick and, no doubt, had made the arrangements necessary to keep the 165s running throughout the closure. Which is for the greater good, putting on one side whether it was the most cost-effective way of approaching this (the most cost-effective approach of course being to permanently shut down the line entirely, so be careful what you wish for).
Either Network Rail's IT isn't joined up or a NR employee/department was asleep at the wheel. A planning failure either way.
I don’t think anyone would disagree this is far from ideal.
However the OPs suggestion that the major works should be aborted is just totally ridiculous, for starters the signallers at Wokingham moved on after last Friday so the works had to continue as the other option would still be no service.
There is an alternative, travel via Clapham Junction.
That is beng allowed this week. I don't know if they had to pay SWR for allowing people to use their trains.
it is possible to travel via Clapham Junction. It is slower but it avoids two buses at least.
I don't know if they have relaxed any time restrictions if you travel that way. For example some train tickets might have evening restrictions from Clapham Junxtion but don't if you avoid that route.
The replan is travel via Clapham Junction. It won't work for everyone but it is possible and it has even been allowed.
That doesn't always happen during engineering works.
This has only just been put in place since the weekend. On Friday the replacement bus was the only alternative in the system, or paying double the fare via London. However the timescales only really improve on the via London options for which fares are still very high.
I don’t think anyone would disagree this is far from ideal.
However the OPs suggestion that the major works should be aborted is just totally ridiculous, for starters the signallers at Wokingham moved on after last Friday so the works had to continue as the other option would still be no service.
I don't think you understand the impact for 100s of people this last minute change has caused. It is very serious for them.
My point was that Network Rail should have realised this issue and fixed well before the works were done or not do them. When it went wrong, instead of going home and giving up they should have worked hard on a fix. I bet with a bit of effort a solution could have been found and yes that may have cost extra but that is what a public body should do when they make a mistake, not kowtow to the Accountants.
But you have also missed my point that even cancellation of these works still wouldn’t have given you a train service between Guildford and Redhill this week…
It also would have impacted the week after and the week after etc!
These works were to finish re-control of Wokingham signal box to Basingstoke ROC. The signallers at Wokingham finished up after last trains on Friday, without signalling staff there is no train service.
That is one of the reasons why it was imperative these works went ahead so there is a train service next week!
Like I say far from ideal but very much a least worst solution.
It hadn't really dawned on me that this is also affecting trains via Bracknell, so even that route doesn't help people from Reading but thankfully the buses do, hence why it is in the school holidays.
So if you are travelling from Reading they want you to use the buses and if travelling from somewhere not west of Wokingham, they don't mind you using the trains via Clapham Junction, even if your ticket wouldn't usually be permitted that way.
What they don't want people to do is travel through central London, unless they wish to pay extra for the privilege.
And this afternoon even that wouldn't have helped. For a couple of hours following the disruption due to a PHBT near Surbiton several Waterloo trains started/terminated at Ascot with presumably no RRB to Bracknell to fill the gap.
You need some realism here, this is a weeks closure on a route which was already half closed for this week.
Pulling a major signalling recontrol is just not a good use of public finances.
Yes it’s inconvenient but many people would have already made alternative plans for this week as it was already planned for half the North Downs route to be ‘bussed’ anyway.
It's all very well to say "it's only a week", but the last extended closure on the NDL was as recently as mid November, so there have been two long closures of the line in under three months.
It's been mentioned on many threads that discretionary weekend leisure travel has recovered quite well, but commuter and season ticket travel has not. The latter travellers are precisely the ones who need a five days a week, 51 & 1/2 weeks a year service, which is no longer being delivered, as a result of both industrial strife and a willingness to just shut the railway down for extended periods for engineering work. Therefore they arrange to WFH, buy cars, move jobs or move house, and they take their money with them. Once gone they rarely come back, so we're likely to see a shrinking railway for the foreseeable future.
It is at best a local scandal, but irrelevant at a national level. I'd imagine that the number of people truly inconvenienced can be measured in the low hundreds. Yes, awkward for them, but equally not a national scandal.
Well I decided to get the rail replacement bus. I looked up online where it might go from and Google pointed me to a Gatwick Express poster that seemed to be out of date and showed the railway station, footways and roads but not the airport building clearly enough.
The airport building helps one orientate themselves.
So I thought as it's close to the time I will just use the exit to the taxis, coaches and buses but that exit was closed.
Turns out you need to wait at a rail replacement reception point in the station but beyond the barriers and they collect you.
On top of this and fortunately for myself, the bus, well coach, was late.
We were then taken through what looked like a service enteance/exit to the outside area and to the bus
There was a sign saying local buses but I assume it was just a route for staff to access them.
I could see no simple way for passengers to enter the station though, other than a long walk through the airport itself, unless they are directing passengers through here but I didn't see any card readers or ticket barriers.
Given they are not running the trains, the leatst they could do is make a short route for passengers to enter the station. Not everyone wants the airport for a flight.
Now they may actually be doing this but I couldn't see where.
I could have gone by train in my case but that isn't open so easily for passers going via or to Reading, unless they wish to pay extra to travel through London.
They should be making the work flow as simple as possible. After all what is the point of the large circulating area above platforms 3 to 7? That would be for another thread so I will leave it there.
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It's all very well to say "it's only a week", but the last extended closure on the NDL was as recently as mid November, so there have been two long closures of the line in under three months.
Given there have been 3 week long+ closures in about a year, I doubt there will be any more for some time on this line.
Of course if the leisure travel is now more important, perhaps they want to prioritise that over the commuters and thus larger but less often closers will be preferable but equally I appreciate leisure travel doesn't bring in as much revenue as the commuters previously did.
With the best will in the world, the number of people using the North Downs Line who are affected by the additional bus replacement between Guildford and Gatwick is small. It isn't term time so students and schoolchildren aren't affected. My colleagues who commute from Guildford are just working at home this week. Anyone going to Gatwick from west of Reading will already have been put off by bus replacement. Just who is going to raise this to the level of a national scandal?
How many people even know that the reason there aren't trains between Guildford and Redhill this week is because Network Rail haven't cleared Turbos to run empty between Basingstoke and Guildford, which seems to be what you are calling a scandal? How many people know it was a late change of plan?
Yes, but that involves influencers getting aware of issues. Someone turning up at Gatwick wanting Guildford or Reading just finds they have to catch a bus and gets on with it. They might post somewhere on social media that they have to get a bus, but at what point does that become out of the ordinary in the way you are suggesting?
The fact that buses are running on the line this week means awkward journeys for people directly affected for a week, but I'm not convinced it destroys GWR's brand image.
Even on this social media, there isn't that much interest in the issue.
Where is there a suitable siding or stabling location that isn't electrified and has suitable road access between Ash and Gatwick?
Clearly water tanking has happened for steam locomotives at Shalford and Gomshall over the years, but they aren't exactly the appropriate place for fueling and maintenance.
It's all very well to say "it's only a week", but the last extended closure on the NDL was as recently as mid November, so there have been two long closures of the line in under three months.
Indeed this is the most naff thing about this closure that the works weren't coordinated especially as both jobs were located in Wessex route. Pre NRCs i suspect GWR would have pushed back against this but in todays world they have no incentive to worry about lost revenue.
I take it all the Turbo's that ww4e modified shouldn't have been here at this time as the 769s would have been in use. So it goes back to that project not working or have I got that wrong? Would the 769s have been cleared?
I couldn't answer this I'm afraid, but seeing as the modified Turbos have not been cleared, I very much doubt the 769s would have been (no incentive, etc etc).
I just watched the GWR video from 4 days ago, shared in a post, formally known as a tweet, on X, formally known as Twitter.
In it they say they have arranged ticket acceptance on trains via Basingstoke and Clapham Junction for passengers travelling from North Camp, Farnborough North and Guildford.
Out of interrest, why didn't they arrange ticket acceptance on trains via Londom for passemgers travelling from Reading? After all, people from Guildford can already travel via Clapham Junction, using other tickets, just as people from Reading can already travel via London, using other tickets. Yet Reading has no additional ticket acceptance but Guildford does.
701179 (Fare route) On the 10th and between 12 and 18 February, when the route between Reading and Guildford is closed. Customers travelling with tickets priced on (00615) VIA GOMSHALL will be valid for travel via Guildford on Rail Replacement buses between Reading and Gatwick Airport. This fare route easement applies in both directions.There are no trains between Reading, Wokingham and Guildford at the moment. This easement lets you use "via Gomshall" tickets on the bus between Guildford and Gatwick. The text is ambiguous (is "between Reading and Gatwick Airport" a description of the bus or the journey?), but the data only affects journeys which go from or to Gatwick and from, to or via Reading.
XB gains links between Gatwick Airport and Guildford.This link (which doesn't appear in the copy of the map on data.atoc.org) may be to do with a rail replacement bus, although I didn't think the maps were checked for bus journeys. There's no rail route between Gatwick and Guildford which doesn't pass through at least one other routeing point, so you can't follow this link on a train. The map is used for Gatwick-Reading journeys amongst others.
I assume this map change was intended to allow travel on the RRBs from Guildford to Gatwick but, as Kieron points out, maps aren't checked for bus journeys so this has no impact (and TrainSplit will still show "sold out" for the buses).
No point in me going back to GWR about this since the RRBs end in two days now.
GWR have now gotten easements added to allow travel with VIA GOMSHALL tickets to/from Gatwick on the RRBs... but only from Reading and beyond.
People travelling from Guildford will still be "forced" by journey planners to take the stopper and change for a train at Redhill.
I assume this map change was intended to allow travel on the RRBs from Guildford to Gatwick but, as Kieron points out, maps aren't checked for bus journeys so this has no impact (and TrainSplit will still show "sold out" for the buses).
No point in me going back to GWR about this since the RRBs end in two days now.
To be fair, I asked them on the afternoon of the 12th, the change was made on the 13th, and it went live for the 14th (retailers pull updates from RDG only once per day).
To be fair, I asked them on the afternoon of the 12th, the change was made on the 13th, and it went live for the 14th (retailers pull updates from RDG only once per day).
Have I understood this correctly? There is an hourly bus from Guildford Gatwick but the journey planners don't show it? And there are technically no valid tickets available to travel on them?
Have I understood this correctly? There is an hourly bus from Guildford Gatwick but the journey planners don't show it? And there are technically no valid tickets available to travel on them?
If there was truly something that allowed Turbos to morph into 159s it would have been more useful to have found it before now!
Suspect the reality is just that there aren't sectional running times for them after Basingstoke. If it is a Turbo, presumably it is the first one via Woking in a long time?
I think the root of all this is the declining ability of the railway to provide the flexibility to operate part/alternative routes. Stock gauge clearance becomes ever more specific and service flexibilty drops accordingly. It is a creeping feature of today's railway that substitute buses are turned to all too often (if they are actually available, of course). Not very long ago, the concept of not running trains over a substantial part of a route like this (i.e. at least Gatwick to Guildford in this case) would have been almost inconceivable, but now... The railway is steadily gaining a hard-to-shake reputation for unreliability, with more and more service suspensions for engineering, weather, etc., such that many passengers' subconcious thoughts may well be putting rail travel into the 'avoid if possible' category. As a career railwayman and staunch supporter of the mode from a strategic viewpoint, it is saddening,
I suspect it’s a hangover schedule from when cycling units that way was the plan - the gauging issue has not been resolved. If it were ad-hoc organised it would be a VSTP not an STP schedule.
Real-time train running information for 5Z88 2159 departure from Reading Traincare Depot to Guildford on 16/02/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.
www.realtimetrains.co.uk
As for the stranded train, here is a couple of photos taken on Wednesday evening.
