Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[The_Train]

loads of operators don't fill their services all day so you have to strike a balance surely

Imagine if we had trains where the amount of carriages could be amended through the day to suit demand?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Imagine if we had trains where the amount of carriages could be amended through the day to suit demand?

Like 5-car 810s?

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't know the exact reason. But I'm guessing that it's because between Bedford and London it's 100 max under the wires.

That is definitely the reason, it’s come up a few times before. It’s why there’s an upgrade underway on the original wired section between St Pancras and Bedford

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Imagine if we had trains where the amount of carriages could be amended through the day to suit demand?

I grew up on the Southern and splitting and joining went on all over the region but it did come at big cost of extra train crew to do that so has largely died out in favour of leaving stating formations as they are all day. Also gives you a bit of resilience if the service gets perturbed and you need to hoover up extra passengers.

 

[Edvid]

Though the 810s won't be in service for a year or so I'm quite curious to see what 125mph is like on the Midland juice; as a Luton resident it'll likely be Sundays only for me.

Could it also be because the demand from yet another train would be too much for the electricity supply?

Probably; the supply at Long Meadow Farm (near Sundon) currently stretches 44 miles to Corby, which isn't good for much beyond Thameslink and the half-hourly EMR Connect service. No APCO zones either (yet).

 

[43066]

They are currently building 7 car for Avanti.

Of course - I forgot about those. So many variants it’s easy to lose track .

The 810s are unique, aside from adding trailers extending them with more motor cars may be difficult.

There’s also the issue that the EMR versions are having different power systems AIUI to achieve 222-equalling performance on diesel, so adding another coach to a nine car would worsen the power to weight ratio, without completely changing motor coaches etc. As you say with the meridians it’s easier as they’re one engine per vehicle.

No doubt changing unit formations plus power plant arrangements plus vehicle lengths (and all the associated software upgrades) would all have added even more cost.

Though the 810s won't be in service for a year or so I'm quite curious to see what 125mph is like on the Midland juice; as a Luton resident it'll likely be Sundays only for me.

Much like 125mph off the Midland juice but with less vibration, I imagine (and hope).

 

[The_Train]

Like 5-car 810s?

No, like single carriages coupled together so you don't have to remove or add in multiples of 5. Then again, I'm going back to a bygone era when capacity was decided based on usage and not decided by bean counters

 

[Killingworth]

No, like single carriages coupled together so you don't have to remove or add in multiples of 5. Then again, I'm going back to a bygone era when capacity was decided based on usage and not decided by bean counters

When lines of spare carriages were held in large station central roads ready for fairly quick use and many more manky old coaches were held in odd sidings across the nation to be used for a few summer Saturday services and football specials, like these held in 5 now all but forgotten sidings at Dore. Old, but at least they'd link up with almost every other coach and locomotive and you could walk the length of a 14 car train.

Maintaining such a large fleet for occasional use was one of Beeching's shock/horror observations - plus maintaining all those holding sidings. I doubt he'd see the sense of so many incompatible micro fleets ordered to meet markets maybe 5- 35 years ahead.

 

[Bald Rick]

Could it also be because the demand from yet another train would be too much for the electricity supply? I seem to remember this being the reason why TPE have to run (some or all of?) their 802s in diesel along the ECML.

The Power supply is more than adequate. Its so they can make full use of the speed profile. (Albeit whenever i see them they see to be on the slows).

 

[43066]

No, like single carriages coupled together so you don't have to remove or add in multiples of 5. Then again, I'm going back to a bygone era when capacity was decided based on usage and not decided by bean counters

If we’re deciding capacity purely on usage we still wouldn’t be using individually coupling coaches these days, surely? Given how busy many EMR trains are if anything it would mean longer fixed formations (perhaps along the lines of the mix of five and ten cars suggested above).

 

[snowball]

The Power supply is more than adequate. Its so they can make full use of the speed profile. (Albeit whenever i see them they see to be on the slows).

You seem to be talking about the southern MML, but you were replying to a post about the northern ECML (though in an MML thread).

 

[Bald Rick]

You seem to be talking about the southern MML, but you were replying to a post about the northern ECML (though in an MML thread).

The post i replied to was suggestimg power supply issues on the southern MML…

 

[QSK19]

You seem to be talking about the southern MML, but you were replying to a post about the northern ECML (though in an MML thread).

No, I was referring to the electricity capacity on the MML and merely using TPE’s 802s as an example of what I meant - ie they run in diesel mode under the wires because there isn’t enough electricity. @Bald Rick then kindly provided an answer.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Feb 2024 ==

The post i replied to was suggestimg power supply issues on the southern MML…

Spot on.

 

[snowball]

Sorry, I misread QSK19's post.

 

[QSK19]

Sorry, I misread QSK19's post.

No problem - I tend to write dissertations anyway

 

[sharpley]

810001 passed by me through Melton Mowbray station a few minutes ago. Seems to be a few movements scheduled out of Old Dalby this morning on RTT.

 

[Verulamius]

810001 passed by me through Melton Mowbray station a few minutes ago. Seems to be a few movements scheduled out of Old Dalby this morning on RTT.

Seems to be heading to Newark and then shuttling back and forth to Peterborough today.

 

[800001]

Seems to be heading to Newark and then shuttling back and forth to Peterborough today.

It’s been doing that all week.

 

[Laketop]

Realtimetrains have it pathed as diesel until Peterborough, but then electric between Peterborough and Newark. I recall seeing it on a run yesterday but the pantograph was down.

Was it running electric today?

 

[800001]

Realtimetrains have it pathed as diesel until Peterborough, but then electric between Peterborough and Newark. I recall seeing it on a run yesterday but the pantograph was down.

Was it running electric today?

Diesel.
It’s not ready for electric testing yet.

 

[K.o.R]

From Doncaster it goes down the MML via Beighton and the Erewash line, but only Hull Trains practices this as they're the only ECML operator that were allowed paths

a 9-car 80x fits with 6 meters to spare, and a single 5 also fits. it's a double 5 that wouldn't, hence the slightly shorter 810 vehicles so a double 810 does fit in the platforms

I was talking about how does a train on the ECML actually travel to St Pancras, as there is no immediately obvious link to the non-HS1 platforms from the ECML. Turns out it's actually a sizeable detour!

 

[Trainman40083]

I don't know the exact reason. But I'm guessing that it's because between Bedford and London it's 100 max under the wires.

The OHLE south of Bedford is currently being upgraded.

 

[baz962]

The OHLE south of Bedford is currently being upgraded.

Of course. I'm well aware , but the question posed was why don't Hull trains run pan up and currently the max linespeed for pan up running is 100 between Bedford and London.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I was talking about how does a train on the ECML actually travel to St Pancras, as there is no immediately obvious link to the non-HS1 platforms from the ECML. Turns out it's actually a sizeable detour!

Indeed. The detour is used when there is a possession on the ECML somewhere south of Doncaster.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Of course. I'm well aware , but the question posed was why don't Hull trains run pan up and currently the max linespeed for pan up running is 100 between Bedford and London.

Would an 80x be able to change to electric power anywhere in the MML without stopping?

 

[baz962]

Would an 80x be able to change to electric power anywhere in the MML without stopping?

That I'm unaware of. Sorry bud

 

[43066]

Would an 80x be able to change to electric power anywhere in the MML without stopping?

That I'm unaware of. Sorry bud

The plan is that the 810s will be able to changeover on the move.

No idea whether the necessary balises are installed as yet, so won’t be relevant to Hull Trains (who I see are clogging up St. Pancras again today ).

 

[cactustwirly]

There are twenty four trains from Waterloo to Weymouth each day, I do not think you can compare it with the Highland Chieftain.

I'm not advocating for new stock and on-board service (though a trolley for that and Exeter really would be welcomed back), but when Weymouth has nothing, I think EMR customers moaning that they have a trolley instead of a buffet on their 90 minute express to Nottingham is somewhat entitled.

The Weymouth service is just a commuter service, you can't compare it to EMR's Intercity services.
It's like removing the shop on Avanti or LNER for London to Manchester or Leeds.

 

[InTheEastMids]

That I'm unaware of. Sorry bud

Exactly, so this is the other part of why Hull Trains are running entirely on diesel.

Presumably the current plan is now a single changeover point at Wigston?

 

[Snow1964]

Presumably the current plan is now a single changeover point at Wigston?

Yes once southern part (Bedford-Cricklewood) is upgraded

There might be few months where some 810s enter service, but upgrade isn't finished. They have choice, run slower or run few miles on diesel.

However not lot of point switching to diesel if pathed behind a 100mph Thameslink train. Need to be able to run faster than 100mph for few minutes otherwise no point doing changeovers as will lose some time coasting during changeovers