Ivanhoe line (via Coalville) - potential reopening?

[70014IronDuke]

A reversal would add an unnecessary time penalty and reduce the value in reopening the stations along the route. The majority of passengers would want to use the main station in Leicester for access to the city centre and for connections beyond Leicester.

It would indeed, but, if room for a single platform could be found at the reversal point, it would add another traffic origination/destination point. (I don't think an unconnected terminus would work though.)

The restoration of services between Derby and Coalville is currently being studied under the Restoring Your Railways and Network North plans. Extension to Leicester is not part of the current proposals, due to the fact that you'd need to demolish quite a lot to build the chord and there's limited capacity at Leicester itself.

https://www.newcivilengineer.com/la...cester-could-cost-additional-271m-09-11-2023/

If that is limited in terms of terminating trains, then revert to the original "Ivanhoe Line" plan, running through Leicester to Nottingham (or Newark).

Or create a Leicster North station (around MP 101) and terminate the Burton trains in a bay there.

I've said before that the removal of the north - west chord at Knighton was one of the worst acts of official railway vandalism (in terms of infrastructure) that I can think of.

It's left the Coalville line in a similar situation to the March - Wisbech line. You can't reopen either because the cheap solutions (ie Burton to Leicester South, Wisbech to March shuttles) are not solutions, but every time you add on what you need to create a sensible solution the costs soar and nobody will give the go-ahead for such a grand scheme.

 

[zwk500]

I have looked at a satellite above the junction between MML and Leicester-Burton, there is a small area of green space north west of the current junction (east of the athletics track) of which you could build a chord through. It'd be short and tight, but looks doable.

Would that be this area:

To get a remotely sensible curve radius (c.150-200m) you're going to need to take out those industrial units. And that's before we get to the junction geometry at either end.

If that is limited in terms of terminating trains, then revert to the original "Ivanhoe Line" plan, running through Leicester to Nottingham (or Newark).

Leicester is generally pretty busy on both approaches as well as the platforms. Running through helps a bit but also introduces it's own problems.

I've said before that the removal of the north - west chord at Knighton was one of the worst acts of official railway vandalism (in terms of infrastructure) that I can think of.

Quite possibly, but it happened and we're here now.

It's left the Coalville line in a similar situation to the March - Wisbech line. You can't reopen either because the cheap solutions (ie Burton to Leicester South, Wisbech to March shuttles) are not solutions, but every time you add on what you need to create a sensible solution the costs soar and nobody will give the go-ahead for such a grand scheme.

Derby to Coalville is a sensible solution that doesn't require outrageous infrastructure costs. It avoids capacity issues on the single line section south of Coalville and the chord/reversal issue and doesn't require any additional work at Burton, with only limited upgrades on the freight line itself to get passenger trains running with stations at Castle Gresley, Ashby and Coalville. It's got a lot more legs than many reopening schemes, especially with the fact it could go back to Leicester in the strategic future. (Personally, I'd advocate the west end of the line being the first part of a Leicester tram system, but that's a different discussion).

 

[Bald Rick]

I appreciate that any new stretch of line would be very expensive in general terms, but this proposal would be relatively cheap compared with other similar projects, because it would be so short and no buildings in the way.

There are buildings in the way, assuming you want to build a curve that is actually usable. (see above).

 

[HOOVER29]

Do you think the Leicester to Burton upon Trent line should be upgraded to allow a restoration of stations and a passenger service on it? Swadlincote and Ashby-de-la-Zouch are both fairly large towns and a Leicester-Burton shuttle service calling at these stations would probably be fairly well used, particularly if it then extended to Derby or Birmingham.

I know it would require the construction of a short north to west chord in Leicester to connect the Burton line into the northbound MML (thus into Leicester Station), but there appears to be space to do this inbetween the Halfords garage and athletics track.

I live in Ashby, a stones throw from the old station & have done since 1977.

The roads are full now & when 600 new homes are finished it’ll surely be worse.

When I started driving back in 1986 the 9 miles to Burton took 20 mins
Today it’s a good run to do it in under 30-35
Same applies to Leicester
35 mins for the 22 miles
Today it can take that just to pass Coalville (5 miles)

So yes I’d welcome the reopening

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Feb 2024 ==

A reversal would add an unnecessary time penalty and reduce the value in reopening the stations along the route. The majority of passengers would want to use the main station in Leicester for access to the city centre and for connections beyond Leicester.

Could they not do a reversal at Knighton junction like they do on the Looe branch at Combe in Cornwall?

Or is there no room for such a manoeuvre?

 

[zwk500]

Could they not do a reversal at Knighton junction like they do on the Looe branch at Combe in Cornwall?

Or is there no room for such a manoeuvre?

It's technically possible but operationally extremely awkward. If you were doing it twice an hour you'd probably want to change the layout.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Derby to Coalville is a sensible solution that doesn't require outrageous infrastructure costs. It avoids capacity issues on the single line section south of Coalville and the chord/reversal issue and doesn't require any additional work at Burton, with only limited upgrades on the freight line itself to get passenger trains running with stations at Castle Gresley, Ashby and Coalville. It's got a lot more legs than many reopening schemes, especially with the fact it could go back to Leicester in the strategic future. (Personally, I'd advocate the west end of the line being the first part of a Leicester tram system, but that's a different discussion).

Well, it's certainly a doable solution for the nothern end, and don't get me wrong - I'm all for it for all the reasons you write here. I certainly hope it goes ahead.

But the OP was speaking more about the southern end of the line.

 

[zwk500]

But the OP was speaking more about the southern end of the line.

Yes, which was looked at by NR at the start of the process and discounted almost immediately. https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/local-news/ivanhoe-line-railway-not-reconnect-8748791

 

[Philip]

Would that be this area:View attachment 151609

To get a remotely sensible curve radius (c.150-200m) you're going to need to take out those industrial units. And that's before we get to the junction geometry at either end.

I was thinking having the chord a little further south of your line, it would leave the Burton line an inch (relative to your aerial view) below your white line, make a gentle left curve to cross the at about 130 degrees angle, then a big 100 degree sweep northwards into the MML. Obviously the sidings would have to be cut back to allow room for the chord. There's a narrow belt of trees inbetween the industrial unit and the MML, so you could possibly squeeze a single track chord through there and make the junction with the MML approximately parallel to the Jersey Dyers building, so that the radius isn't quite as sharp.

 

[Mr. SW]

I live not far away, so have become casually interested in this line and some months ago I had a go on Google My Maps to see what could be done.

Lester Trax – Google My Maps

Lester Trax

www.google.co.uk

This is a bit of a doodle to see what could be done. It's interactive so feel free to click the buttons. At the time I originally did it, the building outlined in pink was empty.
I've also added plots of land that could be sold.

Note the level crossing.

 

[Whistler40145]

Does any spare land exist in the area that Vic Berry's scrapyard was in Leicester?

If so, could a chord be built to eliminate reversing to gain access to the Coalville line?

 

[zwk500]

I was thinking having the chord a little further south of your line, it would leave the Burton line an inch (relative to your aerial view) below your white line, make a gentle left curve to cross the at about 130 degrees angle, then a big 100 degree sweep northwards into the MML. Obviously the sidings would have to be cut back to allow room for the chord. There's a narrow belt of trees inbetween the industrial unit and the MML, so you could possibly squeeze a single track chord through there and make the junction with the MML approximately parallel to the Jersey Dyers building, so that the radius isn't quite as sharp.

Basic maths says you can't get a curve with an acceptable radius (c.200m) in that space. I'm sorry it just doesn't fit. Have a look at @Mr. SW's map to see where the quite tight but just acceptable radii line up.

 

[Basil Jet]

The following alignment seems to affect nothing but motor industry premises. This is actually good... to build a new railway or tramway causes a loss of customers to all motor industry facilities in the area without any compensation, so demolishing a few (with compensation) helps the remaining premises to absorb the displaced custom and so avoid losses.

 

[mangyiscute]

Roughly how long would it take to travel along the single track from Coalville to Leicester?

 

[A0]

Roughly how long would it take to travel along the single track from Coalville to Leicester?

Railmiles reckons Knighton Junc - Coalville Junc is about 15 miles, so 20 mins would be a reasonable 'wet finger in air' for that, then depends what happened in Leicester.

The problem as @zwk500 points out is there's no space for a west > north curve, so it's then a case of reversal somewhere and the added time for that.

 

[yoyothehobo]

Railmiles reckons Knighton Junc - Coalville Junc is about 15 miles, so 20 mins would be a reasonable 'wet finger in air' for that, then depends what happened in Leicester.

The problem as @zwk500 points out is there's no space for a west > north curve, so it's then a case of reversal somewhere and the added time for that.

and considering the current state of the track and the earthworks along there i would say about 1 hour

 

[mangyiscute]

So an hourly frequency is the best that could be hoped for without upgrades, and if a reversal was required even that could be difficult, or require long layovers in Leicester, which has limited platform space.

 

[MarkyT]

Railmiles reckons Knighton Junc - Coalville Junc is about 15 miles, so 20 mins would be a reasonable 'wet finger in air' for that, then depends what happened in Leicester.

The problem as @zwk500 points out is there's no space for a west > north curve, so it's then a case of reversal somewhere and the added time for that.

The curve would be possible with some property acquisition, but perhaps a bigger problem is the capacity constraint of the 2 track southern approach to Leicester which has to cope with the combined traffic of the MML and Nuneaton lines already. NR has a scheme to 4 track this. When it eventually happens, that could be the optimal time to extend the service to the main station.

 

[zwk500]

The curve would be possible with some property acquisition, but perhaps a bigger problem is the capacity constraint of the 2 track southern approach to Leicester which has to cope with the combined traffic of the MML and Nuneaton lines already. NR has a scheme to 4 track this. When it eventually happens, that could be the optimal time to extend the service to the main station.

But the line is extremely unlikely to ever justify property acquisition for the potential benefits it could give.

I wonder if the best outcome from a long-term strategy would be build a Leicester South single platform station on the freight headshunt to reverse trains at. This would allow the reversal to take place at a point of potential use to passengers, off the mainline, and with minimal infrastructure changes (needing "only" a crossover and associated signalling). It's also possible to deliver it separately from any wider Leicester South remodelling.

 

[MarkyT]

But the line is extremely unlikely to ever justify property acquisition for the potential benefits it could give.

I wonder if the best outcome from a long-term strategy would be build a Leicester South single platform station on the freight headshunt to reverse trains at. This would allow the reversal to take place at a point of potential use to passengers, off the mainline, and with minimal infrastructure changes (needing "only" a crossover and associated signalling). It's also possible to deliver it separately from any wider Leicester South remodelling.

I agree that would be a practical option to investigate. If business then builds up sufficiently, a direct chord might be considered in the more distant future.

 

[Pigeon]

To get a remotely sensible curve radius (c.150-200m) you're going to need to take out those industrial units. And that's before we get to the junction geometry at either end.

The original curve had a radius of 240m odd and neatly missed both the units in that picture; however it equally neatly bisected the next building to the north.

I can't imagine that it would really be that expensive to buy them up, in comparison with the price of a glossy PDF full of made-up figures or Network Rail's thoughts about inserting a signal; nor in comparison with the considerable extra length of construction that any useful alternative route through that general area would require. And it will have to be done sooner or later because otherwise there's no way to arrange an approach to Leicester that isn't completely rubbish and hardly worth bothering with at all; and the longer these things are left the more time there is for the costs to increase disproportionately and for new kinds of money sinks to be invented to afflict railway projects with, so procrastinating over it makes it so much the harder to get done eventually.

It's left the Coalville line in a similar situation to the March - Wisbech line. You can't reopen either because the cheap solutions (ie Burton to Leicester South, Wisbech to March shuttles) are not solutions, but every time you add on what you need to create a sensible solution the costs soar and nobody will give the go-ahead for such a grand scheme.

It's the standard British single-buttock approach to more or less anything. Do only the easy bits, ignore all the hard bits and pretend they don't matter. And even on the easy bits, skimp and bodge things in a way that both restricts their usefulness and makes it maximally difficult to un-bodge it later. So what gets constructed is not so much a complete project as something resembling someone with one arm and one leg cut off and the other two limbs semi-paralysed. It can never fulfil its potential anyway because significant elements that make it make sense have been omitted; it doesn't even fulfil what potential it does have, because even the easy bits have been done badly; and ever actually completing the rest of it just doesn't get to happen at all. And a stub-end branch line that fails to connect at both ends, offers a roundabout journey in one direction only, and is entirely useless for journeys to the closer existing major destination to the blind end and for onward connectivity to London and the Home Counties area, is a fairly obviously suboptimal outcome of this approach.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Connecting chord.
How about leaving the Coalville line just to the NW of the Athletics Stadium, passing down the West side of it and then curving round the SW side and South end of that Athletics Stadium and continue NE over the Coalville line to meet the MML just South of the buildings.

Bit close to residential areas perhaps so perhaps easier to blast a way though the industrial buildings in the V of the existing junction.

 

[m0ffy]

As a resident of Coalville, I say let’s get on with it. There is an extraordinary amount of complaining in local Facebook groups about how it will ‘kill the town’ or ‘bring in undesirables’, yet the railway (and huge amounts of coal) built this town. The Stephensons even lived here briefly!

 

[Pigeon]

Connecting chord.
How about leaving the Coalville line just to the NW of the Athletics Stadium, passing down the West side of it and then curving round the SW side and South end of that Athletics Stadium and continue NE over the Coalville line to meet the MML just South of the buildings.

Bit close to residential areas perhaps so perhaps easier to blast a way though the industrial buildings in the V of the existing junction.

Still no way to get a reasonable radius unless you go through the residential areas. Not doing that makes the radius even tighter if anything.

 

[mangyiscute]

As a resident of Coalville, I say let’s get on with it. There is an extraordinary amount of complaining in local Facebook groups about how it will ‘kill the town’ or ‘bring in undesirables’, yet the railway (and huge amounts of coal) built this town. The Stephensons even lived here briefly!

unfortunately, people will always complain against things like this - for mainly stupid reasons that we all know are nonsense

 

[Bald Rick]

Looking at the properties concerned, and knowing people in the commercial property valuation business, I reckon if the three units were on the open market they‘d sell for a total of around £10m-£15m. However, if you wanted to persuade the owner to sell them, ie not on the open market (as would be the case here), you’d expect to pay a premium of around 20% on that, plus the sellers costs. The mere fact that the project has been investigated at a cursory level is enough to make the owner a ‘reluctant’ seller (as well he ir she might be, fir an extra few million). Add in your own purchasing costs, and it will be nudging £20m.

Then there will be the issue of the Order required under the Transport and Works Act, regardless of whether the land is already in railway possession or notm- assuming that once you own the property that you want to build a railway. Even for something simple like this, it would be several million, and that assumes you don‘t need similar consent for any other part if the line (which I suspect would be required).

Then there‘s the demolition costs, site remediation, and so on. All told, I’d be surprised if just getting a clean canvas to start building the 1/4 mile of new railway would be less than £30m.

 

[duffield]

As a resident of Coalville, I say let’s get on with it. There is an extraordinary amount of complaining in local Facebook groups about how it will ‘kill the town’ or ‘bring in undesirables’, yet the railway (and huge amounts of coal) built this town. The Stephensons even lived here briefly!

"Undesirables"? What do they mean? A few track-bashers like me?
I guess that's understandable.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Looking at the properties concerned, and knowing people in the commercial property valuation business, I reckon if the three units were on the open market they‘d sell for a total of around £10m-£15m. However, if you wanted to persuade the owner to sell them, ie not on the open market (as would be the case here), you’d expect to pay a premium of around 20% on that, plus the sellers costs. The mere fact that the project has been investigated at a cursory level is enough to make the owner a ‘reluctant’ seller (as well he ir she might be, fir an extra few million). Add in your own purchasing costs, and it will be nudging £20m.

Then there will be the issue of the Order required under the Transport and Works Act, regardless of whether the land is already in railway possession or notm- assuming that once you own the property that you want to build a railway. Even for something simple like this, it would be several million, and that assumes you don‘t need similar consent for any other part if the line (which I suspect would be required).

Then there‘s the demolition costs, site remediation, and so on. All told, I’d be surprised if just getting a clean canvas to start building the 1/4 mile of new railway would be less than £30m.

Would it be better to build a single track tunnel of around 750m, including approaches and crossovers?
I understand this restricts capacity in the longer term, but if the costs of acquisition are that high, surely the difference between a tunnel and building on the surface isn't more than 50%?

 

[m0ffy]

"Undesirables"? What do they mean? A few track-bashers like me?
I guess that's understandable.

Outsiders. Can’t have many of those coming here!

 

[Bald Rick]

Would it be better to build a single track tunnel of around 750m, including approaches and crossovers?
I understand this restricts capacity in the longer term, but if the costs of acquisition are that high, surely the difference between a tunnel and building on the surface isn't more than 50%?

I cant see how that would be less than £100m.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I cant see how that would be less than £100m.

But quicker than a CPO perhaps, especially if contested?