SWR fine turned court case

[chillibiscuit]

Hi All ,

I just received a letter saying I'm being prosecuted for an unpaid train fine from July 2023. I've been given the option to plead guilty and avoid going to court with a 33% discount to the fine but I would receive a criminal record that would dissolve after 11 years. On the other hand I could plead not guilty and fight the case in court but I'd imagine that would come with legal fee's. I've talked to a solicitor and they said there's a possibility to plead not guilty and then put in a settlement offer with SWR to settle it outside of court but they are saying it would cost me £800 for their services on top of whatever the settlement was.

For context the train was a 5 min journey with a fare of £3.80 (Clandon to London Road Guildford). I was late for work and had to run to get on the train so i didn't have time to stop and buy a ticket from the machine , in my head i thought i would buy a ticket off the train guard as i usually do but due to the short journey i didn't see him. As soon as i disembarked i was approached by a revenue protection officer that asked me to present a ticket. I explained the series of events that had lead up to me being stuck in this situation but he was having none of it. Shortly after receiving the fine i went online and disputed it and i never heard anything back so i assumed the fine had been overturned until i received this letter.

Does anyone have any idea on how i can avoid getting a criminal record from this or know anyone i can speak to regarding the matter?

Any advice is welcome!

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Welcome to the forum!

For some reason, your communications with the railway seem to have broken down. So you need to urgently get in touch with them. You may have contact details on the papers that were issued in the first place, but otherwise I think (from looking at https://www.southwesternrailway.com/travelling-with-us/ticket-checks-and-revenue-protection - SWR's 'Ticket checks and revenue protection' page) you need to contact their Customer Services Team - see https://www.southwesternrailway.com/contact-and-help/contact-us. As waiting for a response doesn't seem to have worked, you need to be the one driving the effort to get in touch: you can't afford to wait for them to get back to you.

 

[swt_passenger]

Did this start out as a penalty fare, ie £100 + fare, reduced to £50 + fare if paid on time?
What were your reasons for appealing it?

 

[chillibiscuit]

Welcome to the forum!

For some reason, your communications with the railway seem to have broken down. So you need to urgently get in touch with them. You may have contact details on the papers that were issued in the first place, but otherwise I think (from looking at https://www.southwesternrailway.com/travelling-with-us/ticket-checks-and-revenue-protection - SWR's 'Ticket checks and revenue protection' page) you need to contact their Customer Services Team - see https://www.southwesternrailway.com/contact-and-help/contact-us. As waiting for a response doesn't seem to have worked, you need to be the one driving the effort to get in touch: you can't afford to wait for them to get back to you.

Thanks for your reply and your warm welcome!

I've drafted an email in regards to the situation to send to the prosecution department would you (And anyone else reading this) mind giving it a once over and letting me know anything you think i should take out / add in?

Thanks in advance!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jan 2024 ==

Did this start out as a penalty fare, ie £100 + fare, reduced to £50 + fare if paid on time?
What were your reasons for appealing it?

yup it did , i said that i didn't have the chance to purchase the ticket without missing the train and i wasn't given the opportunity to do so after boarding. not a great argument but it was the truth.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Hmmm, I'm not sure if the tone of your email will go down well but I'm sure the experts here will advise

 

[Starmill]

Saying you decided to "chance it" due to it being a very short journey time makes it sound like you knew you were required to buy a ticket before boarding, but decided not to anyway because you thought it was likely you wouldn't be challenged.

In other words: you may have admitted guilt already if you send that very poorly worded email.

Buying a ticket onboard hasn't previously been an option either, it's only there in cases where it's not possible to get the correct ticket at your starting station (e.g. you can't use the ticket machine because of a disability, or the station doesn't have a machine at all).

 

[pedr]

Because of the complex systems in place for dealing with ticketing irregularities it is very important for you to be clear about what happened with the inspector and what exactly you did online.

Did the inspector issue you with a penalty fare, with a requirement to pay £100 plus the fare, reduced if paid quickly? Or was the interaction different from that somehow? Do you have whatever paperwork the inspector gave you? If so, uploading it here with identifying information/reference numbers obscured will help.

 

[swt_passenger]

Because of the complex systems in place for dealing with ticketing irregularities it is very important for you to be clear about what happened with the inspector and what exactly you did online.

Did the inspector issue you with a penalty fare, with a requirement to pay £100 plus the fare, reduced if paid quickly?

This was answered ‘yes’ in post #4.

 

[pedr]

This was answered ‘yes’ in post #4.

In which case the prosecution may be improper, if an appeal was actually made.

It is odd that there would be absolutely no response to an appeal, though, so it is possible that was sent to the wrong place, or somehow not fully submitted/transmitted.

 

[spag23]

Hmmm, I'm not sure if the tone of your email will go down well but I'm sure the experts here will advise

I have to agree. Virtually every sentence (where finished) paints the OP in a bad light.
For the moment, you need to restrict yourself to identifying and remedying the communications breakdown. Any substantive plea can come later.
Equally importantly, can you post (redacted) copies of all your previous correspondence with them.
I'm assuming the TOC (Train Operating Company) has the correct address for you, and that the summons hasn't come "round the houses" to you from a previous (or incorrect) address.

 

[Sultan]

Can you upload the letter you have received, redacting any data that may identify you personally? London Road, Guildford, is often targeted by Revenue Protection Officers, it being seen as a soft target for fare evasion in comparison to Guildford main. You say in your opening post that 'i thought i would buy a ticket off the train guard as i usually do'. This implies that you do it regularly. Is this the first time that you haven't seen the guard from which to purchase a ticket (within the 5-minute journey time)? You've been very fortunate on previous occasions if you've been able to purchase a ticket consistently by this method within such a small time-frame.

Sadly your lateness is not a defense to not being in possession of a valid ticket before boarding the train, and there are at least 2 ticket machines and also a ticket office staffed Monday to Friday 6.25 to 11am, according to South West Trains website.

Clandon Train Station | South Western Railway

Find information on Clandon train station. View live departures and arrivals, station facilities, accessibility information and book cheap train tickets.

www.southwesternrailway.com

I'm guessing that the correspondence you have received is after South West Trains have attempted to communicate with you much earlier asking for reasons why you didn't have a valid ticket but they haven't matched up any reply from you, so it has now reached the stage immediately prior to going to court. You say you went on line to dispute the fine, but have heard nothing until now. If this is true, you may wish to reply saying this and asking if there is any possibility for it not to go to court - they may offer a settlement although they do not have to if they feel that has already been offered and you chose not to do that. Others on the forum can help you word such a response but without seeing the latest correspondence that may be difficult to get right.

 

[chillibiscuit]

Saying you decided to "chance it" due to it being a very short journey time makes it sound like you knew you were required to buy a ticket before boarding, but decided not to anyway because you thought it was likely you wouldn't be challenged.

In other words: you may have admitted guilt already if you send that very poorly worded email.

Buying a ticket onboard hasn't previously been an option either, it's only there in cases where it's not possible to get the correct ticket at your starting station (e.g. you can't use the ticket machine because of a disability, or the station doesn't have a machine at all).

Yes i understand , i am just very stressed at the moment and have no idea what im meant to write. Upon re reading the email it comes across as confrontational instead of apologetic. I'm just scanning the letter through and will post on here shortly.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jan 2024 ==

Can you upload the letter you have received, redacting any data that may identify you personally? London Road, Guildford, is often targeted by Revenue Protection Officers, it being seen as a soft target for fare evasion in comparison to Guildford main. You say in your opening post that 'i thought i would buy a ticket off the train guard as i usually do'. This implies that you do it regularly. Is this the first time that you haven't seen the guard from which to purchase a ticket (within the 5-minute journey time)? You've been very fortunate on previous occasions if you've been able to purchase a ticket consistently by this method within such a small time-frame.

Sadly your lateness is not a defense to not being in possession of a valid ticket before boarding the train, and there are at least 2 ticket machines and also a ticket office staffed Monday to Friday 6.25 to 11am, according to South West Trains website.

Clandon Train Station | South Western Railway

Find information on Clandon train station. View live departures and arrivals, station facilities, accessibility information and book cheap train tickets.

www.southwesternrailway.com

I'm guessing that the correspondence you have received is after South West Trains have attempted to communicate with you much earlier asking for reasons why you didn't have a valid ticket but they haven't matched up any reply from you, so it has now reached the stage immediately prior to going to court. You say you went on line to dispute the fine, but have heard nothing until now. If this is true, you may wish to reply saying this and asking if there is any possibility for it not to go to court - they may offer a settlement although they do not have to if they feel that has already been offered and you chose not to do that. Others on the forum can help you word such a response but without seeing the latest correspondence that may be difficult to get right.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jan 2024 ==

Can you upload the letter you have received, redacting any data that may identify you personally? London Road, Guildford, is often targeted by Revenue Protection Officers, it being seen as a soft target for fare evasion in comparison to Guildford main. You say in your opening post that 'i thought i would buy a ticket off the train guard as i usually do'. This implies that you do it regularly. Is this the first time that you haven't seen the guard from which to purchase a ticket (within the 5-minute journey time)? You've been very fortunate on previous occasions if you've been able to purchase a ticket consistently by this method within such a small time-frame.

Sadly your lateness is not a defense to not being in possession of a valid ticket before boarding the train, and there are at least 2 ticket machines and also a ticket office staffed Monday to Friday 6.25 to 11am, according to South West Trains website.

Clandon Train Station | South Western Railway

Find information on Clandon train station. View live departures and arrivals, station facilities, accessibility information and book cheap train tickets.

www.southwesternrailway.com

I'm guessing that the correspondence you have received is after South West Trains have attempted to communicate with you much earlier asking for reasons why you didn't have a valid ticket but they haven't matched up any reply from you, so it has now reached the stage immediately prior to going to court. You say you went on line to dispute the fine, but have heard nothing until now. If this is true, you may wish to reply saying this and asking if there is any possibility for it not to go to court - they may offer a settlement although they do not have to if they feel that has already been offered and you chose not to do that. Others on the forum can help you word such a response but without seeing the latest correspondence that may be difficult to get right.

 

[Starmill]

Can you confirm that you definitely lodged the appeal in line with the instructions on the notice please? They follow the subheading "You have the right to appeal".

 

[RPI]

Did you appeal via the penalty fare appeal process displayed on the notice? Or did you just email SWR customer services?

 

[chillibiscuit]

Can you confirm that you definitely lodged the appeal in line with the instructions on the notice please? They follow the subheading "You have the right to appeal".

I can confirm yes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jan 2024 ==

Did you appeal via the penalty fare appeal process displayed on the notice? Or did you just email SWR customer services?

I followed the instructions on the penalty fair given to me

 

[John R]

Did you use a “signed for” service when sending it, to prove receipt?

 

[chillibiscuit]

Did you use a “signed for” service when sending it, to prove receipt?

It was online , I used the link provided on the fine

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I see that you need to respond to the SJPN by 21 days after the date of posting, and the date of posting was 9 January 2024. So you will need to get your plea in by 30 January 2024.

That gives you a short window from today to 30 January to try and sort things out. My suggestion as I said up-thread is to make urgent contact with SWR's prosecutions unit. I see that page 1 of the SJPN gives you an email address for them.

I would concentrate first on getting them to communicate with you. So you should apologise for falling out of contact (strictly, it might not be your fault that communication broke down, but as you're trying to restart things it's probably better to make a minor concession on that in the hope of getting things going again) and ask if - even at this late stage - it would be possible for the railway to consider settling this matter out of court. When/if you get a response, then you will be able to go into details of why the sanction should be as limited as possible.

If you do that, and do manage to get the railway talking to you, I also think that you will want to consider the tone and content of the rest of what you want to say. Again, you will have to remember who holds the cards in this game (the railway) and then think carefully how, from a position of weakness, you will be able to negotiate a satisfactory conclusion. But as you say, having just received the SJPN you're in a bit of a flap. So concentrate for the moment on reopening channels and then consider what best to say!

 

[Sultan]

OK, so you have until 30th January to respond, although I would suggest it is done earlier. But what to say? This is last-chance cafe territory. Although not exhaustive, and please await for others to reply also, here are some things to consider.

1) Was the penalty fare issued correctly? Based on the info we have, yes it was. The only technicality that I can see might say it wasn't is if the signage (posters) at the time (on 14th July 2023) were in accordance with the regulations. It might be worth checking when you are next at Clandon where the penalty fare notices are positioned and also what they say. It's a long shot, given the time elasped, but there is a small chance that they haven't been updated since and providing photographic evidence of them to this forum might provide information that others on the forum can say if the penalty fare was correctly issued. Time isn't on your side though, so only consider this if you can post pictorial evidence in the next day or so.
2) On the assumption that the penalty fare was issued correctly, you could engage in one last attempt with SWT prior to pleading guilty officially that you wish to avoid court and request you be allowed to pay the £180 + £3.80 to prevent this from happening. They are within their rights to proceed to court, but you have nothing to lose trying (assuming you haven't corresponded before). Again, others will help you with the wording if they also believe it's worth trying. I wouldn't delay this too long though.

Do you happen to know what happened to the previous 2 correspondence that would have provided you the opportunity to discharge the case by payment of the penalty requested?

 

[chillibiscuit]

Do you happen to know what happened to the previous 2 correspondence that would have provided you the opportunity to discharge the case by payment of the penalty requested?

I'm not sure I understand what you are referring to by the previous 2 correspondence?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jan 2024 ==

OK, so you have until 30th January to respond, although I would suggest it is done earlier. But what to say? This is last-chance cafe territory. Although not exhaustive, and please await for others to reply also, here are some things to consider.

1) Was the penalty fare issued correctly? Based on the info we have, yes it was. The only technicality that I can see might say it wasn't is if the signage (posters) at the time (on 14th July 2023) were in accordance with the regulations. It might be worth checking when you are next at Clandon where the penalty fare notices are positioned and also what they say. It's a long shot, given the time elasped, but there is a small chance that they haven't been updated since and providing photographic evidence of them to this forum might provide information that others on the forum can say if the penalty fare was correctly issued. Time isn't on your side though, so only consider this if you can post pictorial evidence in the next day or so.
2) On the assumption that the penalty fare was issued correctly, you could engage in one last attempt with SWT prior to pleading guilty officially that you wish to avoid court and request you be allowed to pay the £180 + £3.80 to prevent this from happening. They are within their rights to proceed to court, but you have nothing to lose trying (assuming you haven't corresponded before). Again, others will help you with the wording if they also believe it's worth trying. I wouldn't delay this too long though.

Do you happen to know what happened to the previous 2 correspondence that would have provided you the opportunity to discharge the case by payment of the penalty requested?

I will have a look today and go take pictures of the penalty fare signs to be uploaded right away. Until this is done any help with drafting an email would be greatly appreciated as clearly after my first draft I'm no good at all!

 

[Starmill]

Cases like this one are very frustrating. If you had paid the £53.80 instead of submitting the appeal, that would have been the end of the matter then and there. You could have then made further representations to try to get your £50 back through other means, albeit this was unlikely to be successful.

Can you advise if you have the evidence that the appeal was submitted to hand? Do they issue any confirmation of having received an appeal?

 

[John R]

It was online , I used the link provided on the fine

Ah, thanks. In which case, given the charge sheet says no appeal was received, did you get an email receipt on submission?

 

[island]

It was online , I used the link provided on the fine

Do you have any documentary evidence that you submitted an appeal via the correct appeal process?

This is very important. If you appealed the Penalty Fare properly, then as of 21 days after the appeal it is no longer legal for you to be prosecuted.

It is imperative that you search for any evidence you have to show you appealed it via the proper appeal process.

I will have a look today and go take pictures of the penalty fare signs to be uploaded right away.

Do not do this, it is irrelevant and can't help you at this stage of proceedings.

 

[chillibiscuit]

Ah, thanks. In which case, given the charge sheet says no appeal was received, did you get an email receipt on submission?

Yes i got an email confirmation , it asked me to verify my email and quoted me the notice in question.

 

[swt_passenger]

It was online , I used the link provided on the fine

The text of the penalty fare notice (at the bottom of the first sheet 9 in the SJPN package), says the appeal has to be sent in writing to a Kings Lynn postal address. Was your notice issued on the day different to that?

 

[chillibiscuit]

The text of the penalty fare notice (at the bottom of the first sheet 9 in the SJPN package), says the appeal has to be sent in writing to a Kings Lynn postal address. Was your notice issued on the day different to that?

I don't believe so , I followed the option above that where it says I can do it through the website. I've attached the email i received confirming they had my appeal and email.

 

[Sultan]

I'm not sure I understand what you are referring to by the previous 2 correspondence?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jan 2024 ==

The 'Statement of Facts' page on your uploaded correspondence says that SWT attempted to communicate with you twice after their belief that you had not paid or (officially) appealed the penalty. We don't know what happened to them.

I'll bow to @island saying not to revisit Clandon station to see what signage there but personally it is something I would do in your position, as I'm assuming it is a station you regularly use. It doesn't mean I would use it, but it would at least mean I have it.

 

[chillibiscuit]

Do you have any documentary evidence that you submitted an appeal via the correct appeal process?

This is very important. If you appealed the Penalty Fare properly, then as of 21 days after the appeal it is no longer legal for you to be prosecuted.

Is there anywhere I can find this in writing?

 

[Sultan]

Yes i got an email confirmation , it asked me to verify my email and quoted me the notice in question.

Did you verify the email though?

 

[chillibiscuit]

The 'Statement of Facts' page on your uploaded correspondence says that SWT attempted to communicate with you twice after their belief that you had not paid or (officially) appealed the penalty. We don't know what happened to them.

I'll bow to @island saying not to revisit Clandon station to see what signage there but personally it is something I would do in your position, as I'm assuming it is a station you regularly use. It doesn't mean I would use it, but it would at least mean I have it.

Oh right , i cant remember receiving anything as its been 7 months since it happened and im sure i would've paid.

Clandon not so frequently but London road station i use a lot yes

Did you verify the email though?

Yes I did.