Platform misinformation - Alnmouth 29/12/23

[HST43257]

TLDR:
After signalling delays during the day, Alnmouth station staff said southbound LNER train would depart from P2, but ignored my warnings of the train being routed as usual into P1 and as a result some people probably missed it. What should’ve happened differently?

Full:
This morning (Fri 29 Dec 2023) there were some signal issues around Wooden Gate Jn I believe. These have had some lasting effect but I’m led to believe that they’ve more or less cleared it now. Does anyone know exactly what went on? Anyway:

So we (myself and my family) turned up at Alnmouth station at 1450ish with multiple cancellations and delays on the boards, but crucially my 1500 London service was reporting on time and running. Whilst making our way to my zone we overheard the platform staff member tell people that our train and all others for the rest of the day will depart from Platform 2, the northbound platform. No platform alteration announcement, just a singular station staff member telling people about it - I believe the station may have been short staffed (unless its the new normal)? But shortly after, the LNER trains 1 and 0.5 hours earlier than ours came through Platform 1. Then, we noticed on Open Train Times that our train was routed through as usual into Platform 1 as well.

Soon after we enquired with the station staff member asking what was going on, with everyone (50+ passengers) on P2 and the train routed into P1. We tried to show her OTT but she dismissed any claim we had that the train could be on the usual P1, saying she was ”100% sure it was on P2”. Lo and behold, there it came rolling in on P1! She still dismissed it as ”the third delayed train” which was non existent but we knew it had to be our train based on headcodes and the very fact that the side of the train said ”1500 London: next stop Morpeth“ or something.

So we made our way over to P1, much to the confusion of the staff member and a fair few passengers who understandably were following the staff advice. But then after 30 seconds or so of the train in the platform she wasn’t quite sure anymore about the situation, so she spoke to an on-train staff member who confirmed it was the 1500 - shock horror! By this point we were on the train (only ones from Alnmouth so far) and the staff member went frantically to call everyone else to the train, meaning people going all the way from the north end of P2, over the footbridge at the south end of the platforms, and onto the train. The train sat in the platform for a reasonable 4 minutes or so before we went on our way, but of course there was luggage aplenty and some people used both lifts. I reckon most (if not all) people on foot made it, but I’m 95% sure that some lift users didn’t make the train.

So I’ve got a few questions. Should I have been more stubborn in getting my point across to the station staff member? Should I have tried to communicate to passengers nearby to alert them to the need to move across to P1? (On that one, I stuck to my general plan of let station staff do their job, but I don’t know anymore given that they were wrong and I could have helped someone make a train that they missed.) The staff member didn’t seem to be using any real form of communication outside of their ticket office with anyone else, how can this be right - Is this the staff member’s fault and the on-work-phone system exists, or does the tech need upgrading to meet a sensible standard?

 

[Dr Hoo]

What does TLDR mean, please?

 

[Freightmaster]

What does TLDR mean, please?

Definition of TL;DR

too long; didn't read —used to say that something would require too much time to read… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

(a 'quick and dirty' summary of a longer post)




MARK

 

[sheff1]

Personal experience over recent years (strangely the very period when accurate real time information is far more widely available than pre-internet) means that at times of disruption I always take with a pinch of salt 'advice' from staff other than the driver/guard of the train I want. Lost count of the number of times I would have been further delayed/inconvenienced if I had followed incorrect advice from staff (or automated announcements/screens).

I generally would not pass on the actual info to other passengers when I have it as they would rightly blame me should I be mistaken (not happened yet, but never say never - in which case any consequences I suffered would affect me alone and be my own fault). The exception would be if I had been in conversation with another passenger in which case I might say "I believe xxx and am going to do yyy but don't blame me if it goes wrong", leaving the choice of whether they follow up to them.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Definition of TL;DR

too long; didn't read —used to say that something would require too much time to read… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

(a 'quick and dirty' summary of a longer post)




MARK

Thanks, Mark. (I am not a regular social media user, other than these forums.)

It would normally mean something like Thameslink Delay Repay on here. Doh!

 

[bramling]

TLDR:
After signalling delays during the day, Alnmouth station staff said southbound LNER train would depart from P2, but ignored my warnings of the train being routed as usual into P1 and as a result some people probably missed it. What should’ve happened differently?

Full:
This morning (Fri 29 Dec 2023) there were some signal issues around Wooden Gate Jn I believe. These have had some lasting effect but I’m led to believe that they’ve more or less cleared it now. Does anyone know exactly what went on? Anyway:

So we (myself and my family) turned up at Alnmouth station at 1450ish with multiple cancellations and delays on the boards, but crucially my 1500 London service was reporting on time and running. Whilst making our way to my zone we overheard the platform staff member tell people that our train and all others for the rest of the day will depart from Platform 2, the northbound platform. No platform alteration announcement, just a singular station staff member telling people about it - I believe the station may have been short staffed (unless its the new normal)? But shortly after, the LNER trains 1 and 0.5 hours earlier than ours came through Platform 1. Then, we noticed on Open Train Times that our train was routed through as usual into Platform 1 as well. Soon after we enquired with the station staff member asking what was going on, with everyone (50+ passengers) on P2 and the train routed into P1. We tried to show her OTT but she dismissed any claim we had that the train could be on the usual P1, saying she was ”100% sure it was on P2”. Lo and behold, there it came rolling in on P1! She still dismissed it as ”the third delayed train” which was non existent but we knew it had to be our train based on headcodes and the very fact that the side of the train said ”1500 London: next stop Morpeth“ or something. So we made our way over to P1, much to the confusion of the staff member and a fair few passengers who understandably were following the staff advice. But then after 30 seconds or so of the train in the platform she wasn’t quite sure anymore about the situation, so she spoke to an on-train staff member who confirmed it was the 1500 - shock horror! By this point we were on the train (only ones from Alnmouth so far) and the staff member went frantically to call everyone else to the train, meaning people going all the way from the north end of P2, over the footbridge at the south end of the platforms, and onto the train. The train sat in the platform for a reasonable 4 minutes or so before we went on our way, but of course there was luggage aplenty and some people used both lifts. I reckon most (if not all) people on foot made it, but I’m 95% sure that some lift users didn’t make the train.

So I’ve got a few questions. Should I have been more stubborn in getting my point across to the station staff member? Should I have tried to communicate to passengers nearby to alert them to the need to move across to P1? (On that one, I stuck to my general plan of let station staff do their job, but I don’t know anymore given that they were wrong and I could have helped someone make a train that they missed.) The staff member didn’t seem to be using any real form of communication outside of their ticket office with anyone else, how can this be right - Is this the staff member’s fault and the on-work-phone system exists, or does the tech need upgrading to meet a sensible standard?

Personally I would have just stayed quiet and boarded the train based on OTT. If a staff member is giving out wrong information to others than that’s between them and their TOC. If people aren’t happy then they can lobby for better staff training.

 

[BrianW]

Personally I would have just stayed quiet and boarded the train based on OTT. If a staff member is giving out wrong information to others than that’s between them and their TOC. If people aren’t happy then they can lobby for better staff training.

Passengers (customers), platform staff and announcements/ screens deserve to have 100% accurate information, and time in which to respond to it. As recognised, those with luggage or otherwise of limited mobility and Dependent upon lifts (or long ramps) are people too. It seems that this train was held for a time in platform, though maybe not long enough for all despite 'hurrying along'. Hopefully 'lessons will be learned', tickets accepted appropriately., and people treated as people.

 

[bramling]

Passengers (customers), platform staff and announcements/ screens deserve to have 100% accurate information, and time in which to respond to it. As recognised, those with luggage or otherwise of limited mobility and Dependent upon lifts (or long ramps) are people too. It seems that this train was held for a time in platform, though maybe not long enough for all despite 'hurrying along'. Hopefully 'lessons will be learned', tickets accepted appropriately., and people treated as people.

In this case it does seem that the problem was more that station staff weren’t able to correctly interpret information which was already available to them. It may well be the case that the signaller didn’t pass on the correct up-to-date information, but this is something which is always going to be an issue at times, especially during a failure situation when signalling and/or control staff are likely to be busy.

The industry has buried its head in the sand on this, essentially so they can get away with providing station staff with bare-minimum operational training / knowledge. And this sort of thing is the outcome.

It isn’t really for other passengers to get involved, not least because if one does get it wrong for whatever reason then one is likely to be on the receiving end of potentially a lot of aggro, possibly worse.

 

[Llanigraham]

It isn't up to the signaller to pass information like that!
And they probably don't have time to do it, either.

 

[43066]

Personally I would have just stayed quiet and boarded the train based on OTT. If a staff member is giving out wrong information to others than that’s between them and their TOC. If people aren’t happy then they can lobby for better staff training.

Same here. They were lucky the train waited, as the issue may well not have been obvious to the train crew who had been routed into their usual platform.

The industry has buried its head in the sand on this, essentially so they can get away with providing station staff with bare-minimum operational training / knowledge. And this sort of thing is the outcome.

There’s an element of luck in terms of whether one encounters a member of staff who is an enthusiast (or just more clued up than the average) who will likely consult OTT or similar, and be well ahead of issues such as this. It’s surprising how few staff are aware of “unofficial” sites and, as you say, the training is decidedly patchy.

Of course there’s no getting away from the generally poor state of staff morale at the moment, which is a key factor in how motivated and proactive staff will be, especially during disruption.

 

[HST43257]

Same here. They were lucky the train waited, as the issue may well not have been obvious to the train crew who had been routed into their usual platform.

I hear that the main reason the train even waited was because my friend also travelling (different part of the train) alerted the TM or someone else to the situation, train crew had seen the empty platform (aside from us) and were ready to leave but waited after they heard.

 

[43066]

I hear that the main reason the train even waited was because my friend also travelling (different part of the train) alerted the TM or someone else to the situation, train crew had seen the empty platform (aside from us) and were ready to leave but waited after they heard.

Good for your friend!

 

[swt_passenger]

Is this thread relevant to the problem:

Alnmouth Signalling Issues 29/12

Hi, A family member who uses Alnmouth reported today that a staff member at the station informed them that one of the signals in/around Alnmouth station had collapsed in the high winds recently thanks to the storm. Can anyone shed any light on this or have any details what has happened? Trains...

www.railforums.co.uk

A damaged signal post, causing bidirectional working.

I suppose having an unusual setup, with Alnmouth being signalled from a signal box just off the end of the up platform, must mean it’s incredibly difficult to liaise with station staff…

 

[ComUtoR]

The Platform staff are working on the information they have at hand. It's unfair to blame them if the information they have is wrong. The position on the ground may also be changing at a pace where information cannot keep up. On more occasions that I care to remember; a service has arrived into a platform that changed at the absolute last second.

Apps like Open Train times are not staff issue and most staff are using resources that they are required to use and not be on their personal phones etc. The apps themselves aren't always reliable either, which is probably why they aren't used in an operational setting. Feel free to check the RTT thread to see how many times its 'accuracy' is called into question or where the data is changed the next day after its been updated.

Platform staff may also have additional information neither public or known. I guarantee many Driver have pulled into a platform, only to be told on arrival that there's been a last minute stock change or came in with a fault and you're now CAPE.

So I’ve got a few questions. Should I have been more stubborn in getting my point across to the station staff member?

Maybe take a polite approach and show them the app and provide the additional information ? In this case you tried but sometimes this can can come across as confrontational; especially when staff are under pressure and things are going wrong.

Should I have tried to communicate to passengers nearby to alert them to the need to move across to P1? (On that one, I stuck to my general plan of let station staff do their job, but I don’t know anymore given that they were wrong and I could have helped someone make a train that they missed.)

For every occasion you are right, are you prepared to accept the ones where you are wrong ? If you are directing people to a different platform than the staff, do you believe that this is a sensible option, given that the resulting confusion may have unintended consequences ?

The staff member didn’t seem to be using any real form of communication outside of their ticket office with anyone else, how can this be right - Is this the staff member’s fault and the on-work-phone system exists, or does the tech need upgrading to meet a sensible standard?

This was the first time you mentioned the ticket office. I'm confused who was giving out the wrong information. Ticket Office staff member or Platform staff?

If you have a reasonable suggestion as to what tech can be used and how, I'm open for that debate. Maybe something for the Speculation section. Nothing is going to be as fast as the Signaller regulating at the last second and I don't believe there is anything currently available that deals with stuff on the fly or the plethora of alterations and short term planning that happens on a daily basis

 

[The exile]

There are far too many examples of information systems (be they human or PIS) giving out information which is not only wrong but blatantly impossible until the very last minute. While things can of course change at the last minute in some places, trains can’t leapfrog each other in plain line or pass through platforms which are already occupied - yet that is what platform displays would have us believe on a regular basis.

 

[800001]

All I read from the initial post is, regardless of what the issue/error was, that you just want to lay all the blame on the member of staff on the platform.

From my knowledge of what was happening at Alnmouth today, from what the platform member of staff said, at the time she was correct, all services were using platform 2 due to a damaged signal, services headlining southbound were operating bi-directional.

At some point there was a tempory fix which allowed southbound services to run on the correct time.

The platform member of staff may of been that busy they either had missed the message to say the southbound line had reopened, or been too busy assisting customers.

 

[ComUtoR]

There are far too many examples of information systems (be they human or PIS) giving out information which is not only wrong but blatantly impossible until the very last minute. While things can of course change at the last minute in some places, trains can’t leapfrog each other in plain line or pass through platforms which are already occupied - yet that is what platform displays would have us believe on a regular basis.

We are becoming more and more reliant on technology and with that we are losing the ability to think or understand why things go wrong or the limitations of the technology. It's also far to easy to get angry about it and go all social media warrior or seek blame in others to hide our own insecurities or personal failings.

*Stuff happens.


*Naughty word substituted

 

[Horizon22]

It isn't up to the signaller to pass information like that!
And they probably don't have time to do it, either.

I've known signallers make calls to the (designated) station telephone before, but this is a) not overly common and b) not during a mass diversionary incident.

Platform changes are probably one of the most annoying things, especially as they can happen so last minute, and even if the route is set up, you would need someone with a hawk-eye view on a) a signal map and b) the power and time to change the CIS (it will change automatically but probably only 30 seconds out once the train hits the TD berth). Even control rooms can't do this all the time. A thread like this comes up every month.

Anyway, at least they allowed people to walk over to the platform and held the train briefly.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Dec 2023 ==

There are far too many examples of information systems (be they human or PIS) giving out information which is not only wrong but blatantly impossible until the very last minute. While things can of course change at the last minute in some places, trains can’t leapfrog each other in plain line or pass through platforms which are already occupied - yet that is what platform displays would have us believe on a regular basis.

If you could design such a system that can continuously calculate all routes and platforms accurately and in a timely manner, you'd be very wealthy!

 

[Spandau]

Some people might feel this all results from the disjointed nature of the ‘privatised railway’. A Northern station staff member overseeing a CrossCountry service that has been replatformed thanks to Network Rail.

 

[HST43257]

For every occasion you are right, are you prepared to accept the ones where you are wrong ? If you are directing people to a different platform than the staff, do you believe that this is a sensible option, given that the resulting confusion may have unintended consequences ?

My thoughts entirely. As I am simply a member of the public I have no obligation to make info known and confuse the matter. I don’t think it’s my job to speak to passengers, only potentially to pull the staff member aside to speak about it

This was the first time you mentioned the ticket office. I'm confused who was giving out the wrong information. Ticket Office staff member or Platform staff?

Same person. Station understaffed. I think there were 2 people present, one stuck behind the ticket office window (not referred to at all) and the one I keep referring to was initially in the ticket office then went onto the platform.

Nothing is going to be as fast as the Signaller regulating at the last second and I don't believe there is anything currently available that deals with stuff on the fly or the plethora of alterations and short term planning that happens on a daily basis

I think in this situation I have later learnt that there was about a 10-15 minute gap between the message going out about lines being reopened (business as usual largely) and our train arriving. She had a work phone in her hand throughout her time on the platform (which I expect started shortly before the message was put out) then didn’t check it once, despite a well behaved set of customers hardly bombarding her much. Besides, the trains crawling through before mine should’ve been a decent enough clue that something should have changed.

 

[Horizon22]

Some people might feel this all results from the disjointed nature of the ‘privatised railway’. A Northern station staff member overseeing a CrossCountry service that has been replatformed thanks to Network Rail.

And they'd be wrong. Especially as this has nothing to do with the topic as it was an LNER train.

 

[GordonT]

A bit harsh to castigate the staff member for being sceptical of online sourced info (even if correct in this instance) as very often it will merely relay the "booked" operation rather than keeping up with ad hoc workarounds. In disruption it is certainly desirable for regular accurate tannoy announcements to be made with details of trains and platforms and perhaps the absence of these was the main failing?

 

[bramling]

A bit harsh to castigate the staff member for being sceptical of online sourced info (even if correct in this instance) as very often it will merely relay the "booked" operation rather than keeping up with ad hoc workarounds. In disruption it is certainly desirable for regular accurate tannoy announcements to be made with details of trains and platforms.

Something like OTT will show what the signal berths are doing, and in some cases even shows when routes are set. A decent member of station staff ought to be able to interpret this, including being able to tell when the data is potentially dodgy. Unfortunately it seems many station staff are now unable to do anything other than “ring control”.

 

[Horizon22]

Unfortunately it seems many station staff are now unable to do anything other than “ring control”.

Something control will find deeply frustrating when many station staff have a company issued phone/tablet which will answer 95% of all queries and instead block up phone lines when controllers are busy with numerous other tasks.

Sometimes as appears to have happened here, the information has changed at relatively short-notice. Unfortunately this will always happen to someone somewhere (e.g. someone is always on the incident train) and it takes time to flow to all areas.

 

[bramling]

It isn't up to the signaller to pass information like that!
And they probably don't have time to do it, either.

This is possibly a negative consequence of privatisation, as well as centralisation of control. In times past it was standard practice for signallers to work in collaboration with station staff.

 

[ComUtoR]

My thoughts entirely. As I am simply a member of the public I have no obligation to make info known and confuse the matter. I don’t think it’s my job to speak to passengers, only potentially to pull the staff member aside to speak about it

Its difficult as neither side know the full picture of what's happening. I was on a train the other week, on a night out, where it stopped randomly and nothing came over the PA. OTT was useless as it only showed all the trains in their berths and the only information I could glean from my internal email was that a train had failed. I would be loathe to second guess any regulation but using OTT I could watch the routes being set and then trains moving. It had no bearing on what actually happened and my internal voice was trying hard not to call out the Driver because I know 100% they had zero information to hand to pass on.

Same person. Station understaffed. I think there were 2 people present, one stuck behind the ticket office window (not referred to at all) and the one I keep referring to was initially in the ticket office then went onto the platform.

Thank you.

I think in this situation I have later learnt that there was about a 10-15 minute gap between the message going out about lines being reopened (business as usual largely) and our train arriving.

Hindsight is 20-20

She had a work phone in her hand throughout her time on the platform (which I expect started shortly before the message was put out) then didn’t check it once, despite a well behaved set of customers hardly bombarding her much.

My work phone is pretty much worthless. I'm limited to what's installed and to what's blocked or not. This is very much a red herring in that we see only what we want to. I never look for the person with their mobile or go to any ticket office window or single point customer service location. When I want information from Platform staff there is a way to find the person who will generally know what's happening or can find the information pretty quickly. At my TOC I know who the Supervisors are and where the local control points are; which is handy in a pinch.

Besides, the trains crawling through before mine should’ve been a decent enough clue that something should have changed.

If you have ever worked anywhere for a considerable length of time you will understand why this is meaningless. Not to knock you in any way and with all due respect considered.

If you saw things like this every day and knew that it changes rapidly or you had limited knowledge or just knew you needed to make a plan A, B, C, and the emergency OMG Plan sitting in the back of your head; it would be very different. Outside looking in is always easy and we are quick to judge. Inside looking out is very different. You are generally calculating all kinds of possibilities and if I was the Platform staff in question I would have had some kind of contingency in my pocket ready. Work with what you know and keep the back up plan ready. If I sent everyone over to P2 and then had a last minute change to P1 then I'd hold the train and let the Driver know. Hold the TRTS till I could confirm everyone was over and then leave the delay attribution to someone else. You may be seeing this for the first time thinking how crazy it is. The staff are probably thinking its just another day a the office. I think that disconnect doesn't always help with our differing perspectives.

As a Driver it took me a long while to suck it up when everything goes crazy and to some extent I still find it frustrating. My absolute worst is being CAPED when I was sitting in the cab all set up and ready to go and the announcement saying I was cancelled due to no Driver !

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Dec 2023 ==

Some people might feel this all results from the disjointed nature of the ‘privatised railway’. A Northern station staff member overseeing a CrossCountry service that has been replatformed thanks to Network Rail.

And they'd be wrong. Especially as this has nothing to do with the topic as it was an LNER train.

But its funny because...

TOC staff, NR Control (local), Different TOC Managed station or TOC Managed/NR Operated, Service from TOC2, External Control from [rnd] place.

Consider where you used to work (I think) and the Terminal stations it worked. 'Disjointed' really does fit. Even with the joint control points, you still have people phoning in from their respective places and then the PED.. and the TS.. needing to communicate and (can't think of the NR person at that place) still needing to pass on information. Then add in the various departments this needs to filter down to. Pass Services/Ops. It's not got any better with "technology"

Seriously; if anyone could legitimately solve the communication issues on "The Railway". You would make billions and that isn't an over-exaggeration.

 

[unslet]

Were the information screens working?

 

[sheff1]

The Platform staff are working on the information they have at hand. It's unfair to blame them if the information they have is wrong.

The OP says the staff member insisted she was "100% sure" even when offered 'evidence' to the contrary which should have introduced at least a slight doubt encouraging her to pay very close attention to any arriving train (fully accept not taking an unofficial source as gospel - I certainly don't). Instead, she apparently then went on to initially deny that the train arriving in the opposite platform with "1500 to Kings Cross" displayed on side was the 1500 to Kings Cross.

 

[ComUtoR]

The OP says the staff member insisted she was "*100% sure" even when offered 'evidence' to the contrary which should have introduced at least a slight doubt encouraging her to pay very close attention to any arriving train (fully accept not taking an unofficial source as gospel - I certainly don't). Instead, she apparently then went on to initially deny that the train arriving in the opposite platform with "!500 to Kings Cross" displayed on side was the 1500 to Kings Cross.

The problem here is that nobody knows what information the staff member had. Personally, and anecdotally, I've been told very specifically that I will be going into platform X by the Signaller and then the signal clears to a completely different platform. I've seen apps tell me a train is about to arrive on platform X but as I watch the unit clear the points its obvious its on a totally different platform. I've even been sitting on a platform when a service is late out the sidings and I looked down at my diagram... I'm sure any Driver or Platform staff can attest to being given information that is 100% correct but is totally wrong or has changed in a blink of an eye. As I said, its easy to see outside looking in and judging that member of staff. My experience (20yrs if that counts) is completely different. Ass, U, Me is relevant here. Apps aren't accurate and staff shouldn't take them as gospel. Caveat Emptor; neither should passengers take them as 100%

Ultimately, it's about dealing with conflicting information. Which should take president. Passenger and public facing apps or direct internal information or official apps ?

Its a no win situation that my colleagues deal with on a regular basis. I couldn't do it and those that can, get my every respect.


*based on the 'evidence' she had

 

[sheff1]

The problem here is that nobody knows what information the staff member had. Personally, and anecdotally, I've been told very specifically that I will be going into platform X by the Signaller and then the signal clears to a completely different platform. I've seen apps tell me a train is about to arrive on platform X but as I watch the unit clear the points its obvious its on a totally different platform. I've even been sitting on a platform when a service is late out the sidings and I looked down at my diagram... I'm sure any Driver or Platform staff can attest to being given information that is 100% correct but is totally wrong or has changed in a blink of an eye. As I said, its easy to see outside looking in and judging that member of staff. My experience (20yrs if that counts) is completely different. Ass, U, Me is relevant here. Apps aren't accurate and staff shouldn't take them as gospel. Caveat Emptor; neither should passengers take them as 100%

Ultimately, it's about dealing with conflicting information. Which should take president. Passenger and public facing apps or direct internal information or official apps ?

I accept entirely what you say in the opening paragraph and have witnessed such things myself.

When it comes to conflicting info I too believe the evidence of my own eyes above anything else. If a train advertising itself as the 1500 to Kings Cross arrived at a two platform station at the expected (delayed) time for such a train I would not immediately deny that it was the 1500 to Kings Cross because of information I previously had - obviously one cannot solely rely on a train display being correct but when, as in this case, other supporting evidence (type of train, expected arrival time etc) is available it seems rather perverse to deny the physical evidence in front of you.