CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Lurcheroo]

No. There is a difference between following rules and being plain awkward, and not allowing a first class customer in standard premium (a cheaper version of first class) when the train with first class is switched is simply being awkward and difficult. And it’s very poor customer service.

While I’m sure you’ll wish to defend your colleagues, it’s perfectly reasonable for us to criticise that on a public discussion forum, all the while we’re not rude or deliberately antagonistic - the J word, for example, is considered provocative by some these days so I take care not to use it - and it is not reasonable to suggest we should not be allowed to call inhospitable behaviour out.

I’m tempted to email TfW and ask what the rules are planned to be for that.

Again, it really all depends on how TFW decide they want it to be handled.
My point is that if the conductor is just doing as TFW instructs then I don’t feel it fair to criticise them. Criticise TFW if your unhappy with the policy, totally fair.
If for example TFW said, anyone with a 1st ticket would have to buy the SP upgrade and get their 1st ticket refunded, I could see some passengers being unhappy with that but hardly fair to give the conductor grief over it.

As much as I would stand shoulder to shoulder with my colleagues especially when they’re in the right. it’s not about that, I feel it the same for anyone doing any job. I have issues with evictions (I certainly won’t go into them here) but I wouldn’t take it up with the enforcement agents that have to do the evictions, it take it up with ‘the system’ so to speak.
I appreciate we’re all entitled to our own opinions and no opinion can really be wrong. I just feel that if more people understand that a lot of our issues are ‘systemic’ then perhaps more good could be done, But equally that could be a load of rubbish too.

I also don’t disagree about conductors using their discretion to provide a better customer experience, as I say, I was probably a bit too liberal with mine.
I’ve also seen the sheer lack of professionalism from some conductors. Ones who can’t even be bothered to go and speak to passengers when something is going on out of the ordinary. I know of ones who don’t even bother to pick up revenue equipment before starting their days work and that’s the kind of behaviour that is an problem.

If you get a response I’d be greatly intrigued to know what they say.

I would be astonished if First Class tickets weren't accepted in there.

As for claiming a partial refund, that only applies if the train you use was supposed to have 1st and doesn't.

I could see it being that you claim a partial refund instead of having to purchase an upgrade and then getting a refund like I have said above.

 

[sd0733]

Has the Standard Premium thing started as planned? Currently on a 3 car and there is absolutely no branding or signage whatsoever. Sitting here until I get told to move (if at all). The seats are brilliant - wide, comfortable, good armrest height for taller people and winged headrests. Only thing keeping me awake is the DSD and AWS from the cab right behind me!

There's no start date now, the 27th Dec was put back until more branding is added but I believe at the moment it's just declassified until further notice.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

There are 'first class' stickers on the door between standard & first on 195115. Was being guarded by the catering host earlier, anybody dare enter his private area was told to move as it was first class even with the rest of the train rather busy.

Reminded me of the coach K 'staff coach' before Avanti reduced 1st class.

There's no start date now, the 27th Dec was put back until more branding is added but I believe at the moment it's just declassified until further notice.

In that case, he on Kite159’s train was acting really quite unreasonably then. :/

 

[Caaardiff]

No. There is a difference between following rules and being plain awkward, and not allowing a first class customer in standard premium (a cheaper version of first class) when the train with first class is switched is simply being awkward and difficult. And it’s very poor customer service.

While I’m sure you’ll wish to defend your colleagues, it’s perfectly reasonable for us to criticise that on a public discussion forum, all the while we’re not rude or deliberately antagonistic - the J word, for example, is considered provocative by some these days so I take care not to use it - and it is not reasonable to suggest we should not be allowed to call inhospitable behaviour out.

I’m tempted to email TfW and ask what the rules are planned to be for that.

You're pointing fingers before that situation has even happened.

 

[sd0733]

In that case, he on Kite159’s train was acting really quite unreasonably then. :/

It does look that way. It shouldn't be blocked anyway, once it's being used effectively everyone would be upgrading on the train so pretty much nobody will hold tickets for it prior to going in there.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

You're pointing fingers before that situation has even happened.

Sorry?

 

[Lurcheroo]

You're pointing fingers before that situation has even happened.

A serial finger point, it would seem.

I don’t believe @Kite159 to be making up, so… what are you getting at?

The quote that you had posted that’s Caaardiff was responding too, you posted before Kite159 had posted …

 

[Caaardiff]

No. There is a difference between following rules and being plain awkward, and not allowing a first class customer in standard premium (a cheaper version of first class) when the train with first class is switched is simply being awkward and difficult. And it’s very poor customer service.

While I’m sure you’ll wish to defend your colleagues, it’s perfectly reasonable for us to criticise that on a public discussion forum, all the while we’re not rude or deliberately antagonistic - the J word, for example, is considered provocative by some these days so I take care not to use it - and it is not reasonable to suggest we should not be allowed to call inhospitable behaviour out.

I’m tempted to email TfW and ask what the rules are planned to be for that.

You're basically calling someone a jobsworth when they may just be following the rules issued by their company. 197115 hasn't subbed for a Mk4 yet, so the situation of being allowed into Standard Premium when the booked First Mk4 carriage is not available hasn't actually happened yet, meaning you're prejudging the situation to happen before it actually has.

I actually do agree that if a mark 4 is substituted for a 197 with SP, then 100% first customers should be allowed to at least sit there. If anything, they are still getting an upgraded product. You could argue that they are paying for a First ticket, not a Mk4 seat. So whether that First ticket allows them into a First Mk4 carriage or SP 197 carriage, there shouldn't be an entitlement to refund in any way as the product received is still above standard. TFW just need to get the branding right to avoid confusion.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Great to see 014+112 on this morning’s 1V92 from Holyhead, bringing enormous capacity on the 175 booked for it until the summer. These 197s are helping to revolutionise Wales’ rail network and will provide what I consider to be a vastly better service when all are in use and at full length.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Great to see 014+112 on this morning’s 1V92 from Holyhead, bringing enormous capacity on the 175 booked for it until the summer. These 197s are helping to revolutionise Wales’ rail network and will provide what I consider to be a vastly better service when all are in use and at full length.

I saw that too on Facebook ! Couldn’t have said it better.
I genuinely look forward to the future for TFW.
I know many loved the 175’s and I did too, but replacing the vast majority of the mainline fleet to be inter-operable is one of those few occasions on the railway that I see some ‘joined-up’ thinking.
Less chance of a short form or set swap because a sprinter got put on a 175 diagram that’s due to couple up or vice-Versa.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I saw that too on Facebook ! Couldn’t have said it better.
I genuinely look forward to the future for TFW.
I know many loved the 175’s and I did too, but replacing the vast majority of the mainline fleet to be inter-operable is one of those few occasions on the railway that I see some ‘joined-up’ thinking.
Less chance of a short form or set swap because a sprinter got put on a 175 diagram that’s due to couple up or vice-Versa.

Yes, I am always supportive of plans for more homogeneous fleets. It makes things a bit more boring for the enthusiast who ends up with less variety, but it makes for such a clean, consistent operation. Greater Anglia today is worlds apart from 2019.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's pretty good value though, appears to be about a fiver for Manchester to Llandudno.

Zoned at £7.70 for Wrexham and Shotton-Llandudno/Llanfairfechan to Manchester (Picc or Airport).
£10.50 from Bangor-Holyhead.
There do appear to be railcard discounts.

Oddly, no fare from Chester.

 

[sd0733]

There do appear to be railcard discounts.

They may show in the data, the Mk4 1st class ones do too but they aren't supposed to be sold as anything other than adult or child. I've not seen anything to the contrary so I'd say the Standard Plus will be the same.

 

[L401CJF]

Just been on 197115. The standard plus/First class whatever its called (branded as First Class on the dividing door) is actually quite nice. Doesn't take up as much space as you'd think. It also has branding applied to the catering cupboard on this one which I've not seen before.

Photos attached showing the above.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That looks good (I think it's Fainsa seat frames but with the same cushion, in black, that TPE used on the Mk5a stock rather than the thin, uncomfortable one found on 80x).

I don't see why you couldn't charge full whack 1st for that to be honest, it's far better than a lot of InterCity 1st in the UK.

Window alignment could be better thought through though, it looks like it's mostly well off.

The cupboard looks less silly with branding, but it's a shame it's not a buffet, it wouldn't take up any more space. Or just a bay of seats

I still think they should print some vinyls of Welsh scenery and stick them on those grey cab ends, they really do look beyond drab and will probably get graffitied in time.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Just been on 197115. The standard plus/First class whatever its called (branded as First Class on the dividing door) is actually quite nice. Doesn't take up as much space as you'd think. It also has branding applied to the catering cupboard on this one which I've not seen before.

Photos attached showing the above.

Looking at these photos (and I think it looks lovely) I personally think they’d have been fine to advertise this as First Class.

It’s separated from standard with doors (and is at the end of the train unlike MK4s where it’s to be soon in the middle) and the TPE style seats are very similar to (I’d say nicer than) the LNER Azuma ones, and they brand both MK4 seats and Azuma seats as the same product with no problems. Creating a third class might have been an unnecessary complication.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Dec 2023 ==

That looks good (I think it's Fainsa seat frames but with the same cushion, in black, that TPE used on the Mk5a stock rather than the thin, uncomfortable one found on 80x).

I don't see why you couldn't charge full whack 1st for that to be honest, it's far better than a lot of InterCity 1st in the UK.

EDIT: How funny, it looks like we’ve posted the same thought at the same time. Shows it’s not just a whim of mine then!

 

[GWVillager]

They may show in the data, the Mk4 1st class ones do too but they aren't supposed to be sold as anything other than adult or child. I've not seen anything to the contrary so I'd say the Standard Plus will be the same.

Interesting. So can they physically be sold with discounts, and staff are just discouraged from issuing them, or is the data essentially wrong?



I also agree with everyone that this could have been sold as first class. With an offer of snacks off the trolley and fitted curtains, I think it’d be more than acceptable.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Interesting. So can they physically be sold with discounts, and staff are just discouraged from issuing them, or is the data essentially wrong?

I also agree with everyone that this could have been sold as first class. With an offer of snacks off the trolley and fitted curtains, I think it’d be more than acceptable.

Honestly yes if you added snacks and a drink to 197 offering, now that the at-seat big impressive Pullman-style dinner shebang is no longer included, the basic First Class fare would get you absolutely nothing more on a MK4 than on a 197/1B. OK, curtains. (And probably, counter-intuitively, a broken recline instead of a working one, if my trips on VTEC & LNER were anything to go by!)

 

[L401CJF]

Just to add, I've just had a sit in the seats in standard plus, rather comfortable, nice and wide, and can be reclined or upright using the switch to the side of the base. I would be happy to pay the small upgrade fee!

 

[Lurcheroo]

Interesting. So can they physically be sold with discounts, and staff are just discouraged from issuing them, or is the data essentially wrong?



I also agree with everyone that this could have been sold as first class. With an offer of snacks off the trolley and fitted curtains, I think it’d be more than acceptable.

Honestly yes if you added snacks and a drink to 197 offering, now that the at-seat big impressive Pullman-style dinner shebang is no longer included, the basic First Class fare would get you absolutely nothing more on a MK4 than on a 197/1B. OK, curtains. (And probably, counter-intuitively, a broken recline instead of a working one, if my trips on VTEC & LNER were anything to go by!)

Feel like this is where the catering area could really have shone through but alas the ‘joined-up’ thinking did not last long enough when they were designed/spec’d.

 

[sd0733]

Interesting. So can they physically be sold with discounts, and staff are just discouraged from issuing them, or is the data essentially wrong?



I also agree with everyone that this could have been sold as first class. With an offer of snacks off the trolley and fitted curtains, I think it’d be more than acceptable.

They exist so it's not a data error as such, Not sure how or why they're there to be truthful. Its not advertised anywhere as railcard discounted so the fare is the one without the discount so nobody should be selling them as they're undercharging thr proper price.

Standard Plus was effectively a way of using the area as an upgrade only section as having no wheelchair space means it can't be used as proper First class

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Are we any closer to the rumoured introduction onto Maesteg and Cheltenham services while the 231s work Rhymneys?

 

[sd0733]

Are we any closer to the rumoured introduction onto Maesteg and Cheltenham services while the 231s work Rhymneys?

By the end of January it's planned (or at least hoped!) for some 197s on Maesteg-Cheltenham diagrams to allow the 150s to go back onto the Treherbert line when that reopens.

From that point very few 150s will be planned on the mainline as they'll be required on the Valleys so anything not 197 will likely be booked a pair of 153s or occasional 158s.

 

[Envoy]

By the end of January it's planned (or at least hoped!) for some 197s on Maesteg-Cheltenham diagrams to allow the 150s to go back onto the Treherbert line when that reopens.

From that point very few 150s will be planned on the mainline as they'll be required on the Valleys so anything not 197 will likely be booked a pair of 153s or occasional 158s.

I thought they were now going to get the Class 756’s FLIRT trains going on the electrified valleys as the tram train depot is still not ready? So, with the increasing number of 197’s on the mainline and the freeing up of 150’s, does that give enough stock to get the Vale of Glamorgan Coast Line running a half hourly service? (The situation regarding public transport to Rhoose for the airport bus shuttle is really dire. 1 train an hour and to go all the way to from airport to Cardiff by bus takes a whopping 1 hour 20 minutes).

The VOG coast line also provides a faster link between Barry and Bridgend (for west Wales) than going via Cardiff.

If enough 197’s are available, then hopefully it won't be too long until the south Pembrokeshire line gets the new trains - this freeing up more 150’s.

 

[vicbury]

By the end of January it's planned (or at least hoped!) for some 197s on Maesteg-Cheltenham diagrams to allow the 150s to go back onto the Treherbert line when that reopens.

From that point very few 150s will be planned on the mainline as they'll be required on the Valleys so anything not 197 will likely be booked a pair of 153s or occasional 158s.

Will it be two or three-car trains on Maesteg-Cheltenham? Will be very glad to see the back of the 150s! Thanks

 

[Caaardiff]

Probably a mixture so peak services will be 3 car, but 3 cars are needed more on long distance services.

 

[sd0733]

The VOG coast line also provides a faster link between Barry and Bridgend (for west Wales) than going via Cardiff.

If enough 197’s are available, then hopefully it won't be too long until the south Pembrokeshire line gets the new trains - this freeing up more 150’s.

Being honest I'm not sure what plans for 756s or timetables on the VOG are now, it's not an area I'm particularly familiar with at all.

Pembroke line is likely to be pairs of 153s for a while longer. The next batch of clearances alongside Maesteg was planned to be the diversionary routes, Swansea District and the VOG, some proving runs having already run. At least then the Mainline services can be 197s even when the mainline is shut.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Dec 2023 ==

Will it be two or three-car trains on Maesteg-Cheltenham? Will be very glad to see the back of the 150s! Thanks

Would think it'll mostly be 2s to begin, with 3s being on the longer distance runs for now

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Being honest I'm not sure what plans for 756s or timetables on the VOG are now, it's not an area I'm particularly familiar with at all.

Pembroke line is likely to be pairs of 153s for a while longer. The next batch of clearances alongside Maesteg was planned to be the diversionary routes, Swansea District and the VOG, some proving runs having already run. At least then the Mainline services can be 197s even when the mainline is shut.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Dec 2023 ==


Would think it'll mostly be 2s to begin, with 3s being on the longer distance runs for now

TfW have said they expect 756s to start on Treherbert in Summer 2024, with the 398s being phased in from winter 2024, so that 756s can go to Rhymney.

 

[vicbury]

Thanks both. My experience between Lydney and Cardiff is that two cars is just about okay on weekdays so long as services (both TfW and CrossCountry) are running okay. On Saturdays even three-car trains can get very busy, particularly when there is rugby on in Cardiff or Gloucester.

 

[craigybagel]

Are we any closer to the rumoured introduction onto Maesteg and Cheltenham services while the 231s work Rhymneys?

From what I've heard, driver training at Cardiff Mainline for 197s is about 80% complete, which is actually pretty impressive given the timelines involved. The last drivers to be trained are the ones in the lower links who don't work the routes 197s are currently covering - but they do do a lot of the Maesteg work.
I wonder if we'll see them on Cheltenham before Maesteg as a result? It would probably be easier to crew at this point.