CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[GWVillager]

I am sorry but I think TfW is just unnecessarily creating problems for itself with the Standard Plus or pseudo First Class what ever it wants to call it. They should call it something that the general public can easily understand and relate to and price it accordingly. Only people in the know would understand the subtle difference. To also only have certain 3 car units with this option further complicated matters. TfW needs to get it's act together and ensure the option is only on certain routes on which the ordinary passenger knows it will be available. If the list in the press release is what is proposed then so be it. The Regulator is trying to simplify ticket options but TfW appears to be adding a complication. End of rant.

I think the low price of Standard Plus will work in its favour. I agree with sd, I can see it being regularly full, and I'm sure people will get to grips with it soon, especially if they're on board with the idea.

 

[Lurcheroo]

I’m with SD here, it doesn’t add complication. It’s an on board upgrade only.
As I’m an insider I asked a friend who doesn’t use rail travel which would be most to least expensive, standard, standard premium and first, they got it right because they are clearly distinct and obvious for the pricing order based on name.

The press release is terrible, standard premium on the Cambrian, where they currently can not go as they are not fitted with ERTMS. Shockingly bad by the TFW PR team.

Whilst personally I think it should have been introduced later but en-masse that's not the decision taken so Whilst at first it seems it will be rather a mixed deployment,

My guess is, they’re just desperate to get every unit into service that they can at this point.

 

[sd0733]

My guess is, they’re just desperate to get every unit into service that they can at this point

I'd get them in service too, just think having 1 unit at the start is likely to cause more disappointment where people try it once then can't get it for several trips as its different units and it may have been beneficial to wait for at least a handful of units before launching it and in the meantime just declassify like it now is!

Works both ways I know, as people also get used to sitting in there then having to pay for it suddenly also grates so it's not an easy choice!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The press release is terrible, standard premium on the Cambrian, where they currently can not go as they are not fitted with ERTMS. Shockingly bad by the TFW PR team.

I mean I agree it's poor, as is everything the TOC does, but it's not a huge deal. It's not like people are going to turn up at Barmouth and then be utterly heartbroken by the fact their inevitable 158 only has standard seating.

 

[Anonymous10]

People seem to have taken to Standard Premium on Avanti, always looks busy when I see it. There's also Premium Economy on most airlines these days.

Whilst I'd agree that the press release is extremely poor; including routes that aren't 197s even but missing those that already have Standard Plus fares. Where I don't agree is that it's adding complication. If a passenger wants it then they'll upgrade if they don't then they'll stay where they are and ignore its existence.
Whilst personally I think it should have been introduced later but en-masse that's not the decision taken so Whilst at first it seems it will be rather a mixed deployment, eventually it should become more dependable, really it introduces passenger choice not complexity.

The fares are (in my opinion) extremely competitive For example £13 upgrade Manchester to Cardiff. I think at those prices eventually capacity in there could be the biggest issue!

I'd happily pay the £13 supplement for one.

 

[Rhydgaled]

On paper, Swansea to Manchester only.

(I’m sure a set will ‘escape’ at some point and the business zone will get declassified)

That's interesting since 14 units seemed slightly generous for the full hourly service between Swansea and Manchester (9 or 10 diagrams) they were originally expected to cover. With mark 4s now doing half the Cardiff-Manchester runs, even fewer 197/1 diagrams will now be required to cover Manchester-Swansea.

Would make more sense for that 197 with "Standard Plus" to run declassified until more of that batch enter service.

The original plan was of course to introduce the whole fleet - some with first class declassified and others in a 'first-class ready' condition then launch first class all at once in Dec 2024 or Jan 2025. I am therefore slightly surprised that it is now being launched this year, even though it is now classified as 'Standard Plus' instead of 'First Class'. Presumably the intitial proposal for some 'first class ready' units has been dropped?

If one of these turns up alone to run one of the peak trains off Manchester then this will certainly happen. Likewise peak workings from Cardiff.

Has Swansea-Manchester been cleared in full for 5-car and 6-car operation of 197s yet? If not, then the 'Standard Plus' unit(s) won't be able to run in multiple with anything else on that route yet.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I'd happily pay the £13 supplement for one.

Yes so would I for that price.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

That's interesting since 14 units seemed slightly generous for the full hourly service between Swansea and Manchester (9 or 10 diagrams) they were originally expected to cover. With mark 4s now doing half the Cardiff-Manchester runs, even fewer 197/1 diagrams will now be required to cover Manchester-Swansea.


The original plan was of course to introduce the whole fleet - some with first class declassified and others in a 'first-class ready' condition then launch first class all at once in Dec 2024 or Jan 2025. I am therefore slightly surprised that it is now being launched this year, even though it is now classified as 'Standard Plus' instead of 'First Class'. Presumably the intitial proposal for some 'first class ready' units has been dropped?


Has Swansea-Manchester been cleared in full for 5-car and 6-car operation of 197s yet? If not, then the 'Standard Plus' unit(s) won't be able to run in multiple with anything else on that route yet.

Swansea to Shrewsbury has been cleared, just Shrewsbury to Manchester needs clearing for 6 car next.

 

[nigelsporne]

I bow to your superior knowledge. I wish TfW all the best in their venture.

 

[BenBracken]

2 car in Pembrokeshire is consistent with what has been going there? I assume that the additional trains that start at Swansea/Carmarthen still run and it is not just the trains coming down from Manchester.

Presumably some 3's will run amongst all of that, and no doubt ones with this gimmick class whilst trains without are on the Manchester because it is too hard to split a pool (as apparently it was when there were Northern 150s to avoid booking on Manchester services)

Been keeping tabs on services to Milford Haven in the first week of operation. There have consistently been three car units, which mirrored what the 175s used to do quite regularly. Been very little sign of 197s on the Fishguard services, despite TfW saying they were due to start this week.

 

[Anonymous10]

2 car in Pembrokeshire is consistent with what has been going there? I assume that the additional trains that start at Swansea/Carmarthen still run and it is not just the trains coming down from Manchester.

Presumably some 3's will run amongst all of that, and no doubt ones with this gimmick class whilst trains without are on the Manchester because it is too hard to split a pool (as apparently it was when there were Northern 150s to avoid booking on Manchester services)

Milford has historically been a mix of 3 and 2 car trains until the 175s went and Pembroke Dock in summer is also usually around 3 coaches on peak services due to the tourist demand for tenby.

 

[Snow1964]

I have gone back few pages, so apologies if it is earlier, now that we have had December timetable change, virtually at Christmas break and just week before end of 2023. Does anyone have upto date summary how many of the 77 units are in service, many thanks.

 

[CardiffKid]

I have gone back few pages, so apologies if it is earlier, now that we have had December timetable change, virtually at Christmas break and just week before end of 2023. Does anyone have upto date summary how many of the 77 units are in service, many thanks.

https://www.ukraillog.co.uk/fleet-data/dmu/197

Type "Active" into the Search Fleet box and it will show all the ones that have carried passengers.

 

[sd0733]

I have gone back few pages, so apologies if it is earlier, now that we have had December timetable change, virtually at Christmas break and just week before end of 2023. Does anyone have upto date summary how many of the 77 units are in service, many thanks.

There's currently 40 units accepted:

30/51 2 Cars (197001/002/004-021-042-051)
10/26 3 cars (197101/104-106/108-112/115)

197102, 103 and 197107 should have been accepted by now as the last standard only 3 cars but have since gone back to the Workshop at Crewe so seem to have dropped down the queue somewhat.

 

[Snow1964]

There's currently 41 units accepted:

30/51 2 Cars (197001/002/004-021-042-051)
11/26 3 cars (197101/103-106/108-112/115)

197102 and 197107 should have been accepted by now as the last standard only 3 cars but have since gone back to the Workshop at Crewe so seem to have dropped down the queue somewhat.

Thanks

 

[Western 52]

Does anyone know what the maximum number of 197 cars in one formation can be? I know they won't normally run with more than 6, but how many could work in multiple?

 

[Lurcheroo]

Does anyone know what the maximum number of 197 cars in one formation can be? I know they won't normally run with more than 6, but how many could work in multiple?

So in passenger service, maximum of 3 coupled together, so 3 x 3 cars would make 9 cars total. If anywhere will be cleared for 9 cars, is pretty doubtful.
For an empty stock move, 4 can be coupled together so a theoretical maximum of 12.

 

[Western 52]

So in passenger service, maximum of 3 coupled together, so 3 x 3 cars would make 9 cars total. If anywhere will be cleared for 9 cars, is pretty doubtful.
For an empty stock move, 4 can be coupled together so a theoretical maximum of 12.

I guess we will see some longer formations when 197s have to rescue failed class mates.

 

[Lurcheroo]

I guess we will see some longer formations when 197s have to rescue failed class mates.

yep, in theory a 3 car could rescue a 5 car and potentially still run in passenger service (depending on the fault).

 

[Western 52]

yep, in theory a 3 car could rescue a 5 car and potentially still run in passenger service (depending on the fault).

As the plan is 5 car sets on the Marches, a failed 5 car could not therefore be rescued by another 5 car which may be following?

 

[Lurcheroo]

It definitely could if the passengers were dropped off. 4 sets together shouldn’t be carrying passengers and I don’t know if exceptions are made for rescues.
I’m sure there are some services on event days in Cardiff or Manchester that could warrant being more than 6 cars.

 

[sd0733]

So in passenger service, maximum of 3 coupled together, so 3 x 3 cars would make 9 cars total. If anywhere will be cleared for 9 cars, is pretty doubtful.
For an empty stock move, 4 can be coupled together so a theoretical maximum of 12.

AFAIK the 3 coupled in service is just for 3x2 cars. Theres no stop boards for above 6 cars and ASDO isn't approved above a 6 car formation, theres also no route acceptance planned for above 6 coaches.

From what I was told anything above a 6 car that ends up running through rescues etc will have to run as a ECS move.

To be honest though it was quite a while ago so things could have changed in the last few months but at that time that's what was said.

 

[BenBracken]

https://www.ukraillog.co.uk/fleet-data/dmu/197

Type "Active" into the Search Fleet box and it will show all the ones that have carried passengers.

Thanks, this is useful info. The majority have Chester as the depot. How come none in Canton? Are they not set up to maintain them? Will the Cambrian ones be based at Mach?

 

[Lurcheroo]

AFAIK the 3 coupled in service is just for 3x2 cars. Theres no stop boards for above 6 cars and ASDO isn't approved above a 6 car formation, theres also no route acceptance planned for above 6 coaches.

From what I was told anything above a 6 car that ends up running through rescues etc will have to run as a ECS move.

To be honest though it was quite a while ago so things could have changed in the last few months but at that time that's what was said.

On our driver training we were just told that the class as a whole can have 3 in multiple for passenger work and 4 in multiple for empty but as you say I suspected that nothing would be cleared for more than 6, so that would be the actual maximum even if 9 would be theoretically possible. I think the fact that ASDO is only approved for a max of 6 is pretty telling.

Side note, have you heard anything about any other units getting ERTMS, specifically 3 cars ?
There were minutes of a meeting that a TFW representative said 3 cars should be on the Cambrian as far as they knew.
Also the web page for standard plus says Cambrian.
I suspect both are errors as obviously that can’t happen at current but wonder if something is in the works ?

 

[Anonymous10]

Thanks, this is useful info. The majority have Chester as the depot. How come none in Canton? Are they not set up to maintain them? Will the Cambrian ones be based at Mach?

The 197s will be at chester and mach.
Class 756 and 231 for Canton, believe they'll stable 197s overnight though.
Class 398 for taffs Well.
Class 153 currently unclear.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Dec 2023 ==

On our driver training we were just told that the class as a whole can have 3 in multiple for passenger work and 4 in multiple for empty but as you say I suspected that nothing would be cleared for more than 6, so that would be the actual maximum even if 9 would be theoretically possible. I think the fact that ASDO is only approved for a max of 6 is pretty telling.

Side note, have you heard anything about any other units getting ERTMS, specifically 3 cars ?
There were minutes of a meeting that a TFW representative said 3 cars should be on the Cambrian as far as they knew.
Also the web page for standard plus says Cambrian.
I suspect both are errors as obviously that can’t happen at current but wonder if something is in the works ?

Only way they could get standard plus on all those routes would be to have it in all 197/1s

 

[Caaardiff]

As the plan is 5 car sets on the Marches, a failed 5 car could not therefore be rescued by another 5 car which may be following?

Don't forget a 5 car set will be 2+3 so effectively 2 units, so although there is a possibility, the likelihood of both of them failing and both needing rescuing is very unlikely.

 

[sd0733]

Side note, have you heard anything about any other units getting ERTMS, specifically 3 cars ?
There were minutes of a meeting that a TFW representative said 3 cars should be on the Cambrian as far as they knew.
Also the web page for standard plus says Cambrian.
I suspect both are errors as obviously that can’t happen at current but wonder if something is in the works ?

Not heard anything specifically about different units being fitted. Could make sense to get some 3s over on the Cambrian particularly in Summer though.

From discussions we had with the tech guys in the very early testing days all the sets have the background wiring and sockets for ERTMS (hence why it comes up on the TMS as a fault) and that it's more of a "laptop job than a workshop job" to install/remove ERTMS, so the fleet shouldn't be set in stone if it is decided to change it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Dec 2023 ==

The 197s will be at chest and mach.
Class 756 and 231 for Canton, believe they'll stable 197s overnight though.
Class 398 for taffs Well.
Class 153 currently unclear.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Dec 2023 ==

Yes, 197s will stable at Canton overnight, along with Holyhead, Llandudno Jcn, Chester, Crewe, Shrewsbury, Hereford and Carmarthen.

153s are currently planned to be based at Landore.

 

[Anonymous10]

Not heard anything specifically about different units being fitted. Could make sense to get some 3s over on the Cambrian particularly in Summer though.

From discussions we had with the tech guys in the very early testing days all the sets have the background wiring and sockets for ERTMS (hence why it comes up on the TMS as a fault) and that it's more of a "laptop job than a workshop job" to install/remove ERTMS, so the fleet shouldn't be set in stone if it is decided to change it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Dec 2023 ==


Yes, 197s will stable at Canton overnight, along with Holyhead, Llandudno Jcn, Chester, Crewe, Shrewsbury, Hereford and Carmarthen.

153s are currently planned to be based at Landore.

Many thanks, I thought this was currently uncertain though? Until chrysalis rail at Landore agreed they'd be willing to do overnight work?

May be completely wrong.

 

[craigybagel]

From discussions we had with the tech guys in the very early testing days all the sets have the background wiring and sockets for ERTMS (hence why it comes up on the TMS as a fault) and that it's more of a "laptop job than a workshop job" to install/remove ERTMS, so the fleet shouldn't be set in stone if it is decided to change it.

I've been making this point since the 197s were ordered to show that they're not going to single handedly destroy the entire Cambrian coast line. Some people still don't believe me....

Many thanks, I thought this was currently uncertain though? Until chrysalis rail at Landore agreed they'd be willing to do overnight work?

May be completely wrong.

Basically the choice is between persuading Landore to do overnight work, or accept the logistical challenges and expenses of having the units go to Canton or Crewe instead. As far as I know the former option is still the plan.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

There's currently 41 units accepted:

30/51 2 Cars (197001/002/004-021-042-051)
11/26 3 cars (197101/103-106/108-112/115)

197102 and 197107 should have been accepted by now as the last standard only 3 cars but have since gone back to the Workshop at Crewe so seem to have dropped down the queue somewhat.

109 is out. I haven't seen 103 out!