Northern Rail Penalty Fare Notice

[Yinyang25]

Hi,

I’ve received a fine for boarding a train at the wrong station. The reason on my fine is (other) boarded at wrong station on advance ticket (split journey).

I’ve not seen anyone receive a ticket for this reason and would like some advice please.

So I had a ticket for York - Harrogate, however due to running late, I got a lift to an easier to get the station, Poppleton, and boarded there. This is the stop after York. I didn’t assume this to be an issue as I still had a ticket for the full journey.

As the conductor came round to check tickets he asked from tickets from Poppleton which I showed him my ticket and my railcard. He then asked why I boarded at Poppleton to which I explained running late for work ect.

He explained that he was penalty fare staff, showed me his ID to which I apologised for the genuine mistake and told him I know for future and wouldn’t do it again, and offered to buy a new ticket. He said he was attempting to catch repeat offenders and that I wouldn’t get a fine but he needed some details which I provided.

He then printed off a fine, took a photo and explained if it’s paid in 21 days it’ll be £50 and a price of a new ticket.

Do I have grounds to appeal this and what you would recommend putting?

 

[John R]

What was the cost of your advance ticket? The cost of a single from Poppleton to Harrogate is 9.30, which may be more than the fare you paid.

 

[Watershed]

The member of staff was completely wrong to issue you with a Penalty Fare. As you say, you held a valid ticket for the train you were on and thus he had no grounds for doing so.

The correct and only sanction for breaking your journey where not permitted is to have to pay the difference to the cheapest fare that permits break of journey, i.e. a walk-up single (Off-Peak or Anytime depending on the time of travel). Thus what he could legitimately have done - even though it would have been extremely harsh - was to charge you this difference.

But breaking your journey where not permitted doesn't make your ticket completely invalid and hence you should appeal the Penalty Fare on this basis. We can proofread any draft you want to share before submitting your appeal. You have 21 days to submit an appeal from when you received the Penalty Fare.

Once a Penalty Fare has been appealed, then unless the Penalty Fare is withdrawn before the appeal is decided (or is due to be decided), it effectively becomes a purely civil matter and the operator is barred from prosecuting you in relation to this incident under the usual legislation (section 5(3)(a) of the Regulation of Railways Act or the Railway Byelaws).

 

[AlterEgo]

Not a valid reason for a penalty fare. The correct resolution is to excess the ticket to one which allows break of journey.

 

[gray1404]

Could you please upload a copy of the penalty fare notice with your personal details retracted.

 

[RPI]

As someone who issues PF's myself (not for Northern), I sometimes look in disbelief at some of these threads where PF's get issued in circumstances like this!

 

[Yinyang25]

What was the cost of your advance ticket? The cost of a single from Poppleton to Harrogate is 9.30, which may be more than the fare you paid.

My advance ticket cost was £3.40, which I can understand is less and I was happy to pay for a brand new ticket at £9.30, I just can’t believe I’ve received a PFN from this.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Dec 2023 ==

The member of staff was completely wrong to issue you with a Penalty Fare. As you say, you held a valid ticket for the train you were on and thus he had no grounds for doing so.

The correct and only sanction for breaking your journey where not permitted is to have to pay the difference to the cheapest fare that permits break of journey, i.e. a walk-up single (Off-Peak or Anytime depending on the time of travel). Thus what he could legitimately have done - even though it would have been extremely harsh - was to charge you this difference.

But breaking your journey where not permitted doesn't make your ticket completely invalid and hence you should appeal the Penalty Fare on this basis. We can proofread any draft you want to share before submitting your appeal. You have 21 days to submit an appeal from when you received the Penalty Fare.

Once a Penalty Fare has been appealed, then unless the Penalty Fare is withdrawn before the appeal is decided (or is due to be decided), it effectively becomes a purely civil matter and the operator is barred from prosecuting you in relation to this incident under the usual legislation (section 5(3)(a) of the Regulation of Railways Act or the Railway Byelaws).

Thank you, I’m glad you agree that it was unfair and incorrect to issue a PFN. I said to him I was happy to pay the £9.30 for a new ticket however he continued to issue the penalty.

Looking at Northern’s terms, it is incorrect to break a journey on an advanced single ticket, so I’m worried my appeal will be disregarded down to a genuine mistake. Once I have wrote my appeal I’ll post it on here for feedback, thank you for that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Dec 2023 ==

Not a valid reason for a penalty fare. The correct resolution is to excess the ticket to one which allows break of journey.

I’m just not sure if it’s allowed under Northern’s guidelines because they seem to have a rule on breaking journeys.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Dec 2023 ==

Could you please upload a copy of the penalty fare notice with your personal details retracted.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Dec 2023 ==

As someone who issues PF's myself (not for Northern), I sometimes look in disbelief at some of these threads where PF's get issued in circumstances like this!

I’m glad you’re not all the same! It does make me wonder if they work on commission.

 

[sheff1]

As someone who issues PF's myself (not for Northern), I sometimes look in disbelief at some of these threads where PF's get issued in circumstances like this!

Quite. Yet when PFs were introduced we were assured that authorised collectors of PFs would be fully trained in the correct procedures.
Not, of course, that I would believe any assurance from the government, RDG or TOCs

 

[WesternLancer]

Looking at Northern’s terms, it is incorrect to break a journey on an advanced single ticket, so I’m worried my appeal will be disregarded down to a genuine mistake. Once I have wrote my appeal I’ll post it on here for feedback, thank you for that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Dec 2023 ==


I’m just not sure if it’s allowed under Northern’s guidelines because they seem to have a rule on breaking journeys.

I suspect that whilst it is incorrect to break a journey on an Advance ticket, what ppl (experts here) are saying to you is that the railway company is then incorrect in issuing you a Penalty Fare, and instead should have issued you an excess fare (which is cheaper in this case)

This is why you will need help from experts here in getting your Appeal wording 100% correct - because there is every chance that the staff at the independent appeal service who will examine your appeal may well not know this either, just like the staff member on your train did not seem to know.

What you can be sure of though is the experts on this forum really will know correctly (and will correct me if I have understood this wrong!)

 

[fandroid]

Looking at Northern’s terms, it is incorrect to break a journey on an advanced single ticket, so I’m worried my appeal will be disregarded down to a genuine mistake. Once I have wrote my appeal I’ll post it on here for feedback, thank you for that.


I’m just not sure if it’s allowed under Northern’s guidelines because they seem to have a rule on breaking journeys.

It is incorrect to break your journey with an advance ticket. But it's also incorrect under the Penalty Fare regulations for Northern Rail to issue a penalty fare. The difference in fare is what should have been requested

 

[John R]

So several posters have said that the correct process would have been for an excess fare to have been issued, rather than a penalty fare. I think it would help the OP enormously if there is something that could be quoted from the various legislation (or NCoT) that can be included in their response to support their assertion to that effect in their appeal. Else I worry it will just be rejected.

 

[jamiearmley]

I am not 100% sure, because it's not something that I deal with in my day-to-day duties, but when an advance ticket is excessed to a flexible ticket is there not a £10 admin fee? Such a fee would mean that a new fare is the sensible option In this specific case.

Further, the national rail conditions of carriage direct users of Advance tickets to the " special conditions for Advance tickets" on the national rail website. These conditions, when accessed, states that changes to advance tickets cannot be made on board the train.

The above is just my musings, I'd be interested to see what people think.

Moderator note: the above is not correct; as it has been replied to, we have retained this content but crossed it out.

However, I do note that the OP refers a few times to 'Northern's terms'.

I don't believe that Northern has a special conditions for Advance tickets that only they enforce. The conditions for advance tickets are national - and apply to all train companies and all trains equally.

 

[spag23]

I don't believe that Northern has a special conditions for Advance tickets that only they enforce. The conditions for advance tickets are national - and apply to all train companies and all trains equally.

And the NRCoT actually states:
"Please note that neither a Train Company’s staff, nor a Licensed Retailer’s staff has the authority to waive or change the Conditions unless they are specifically allowed to do so within the Conditions"

 

[Watershed]

I am not 100% sure, because it's not something that I deal with in my day-to-day duties, but when an advance ticket is excessed to a flexible ticket is there not a £10 admin fee? Such a fee would mean that a new fare is the sensible option In this specific case.

When changed to a different date or time, yes. But in this case the OP travelled on their booked train so this doesn't apply.

Further, the national rail conditions of carriage direct users of Advance tickets to the " special conditions for Advance tickets" on the national rail website. These conditions, when accessed, states that changes to advance tickets cannot be made on board the train.

The restriction on BoJ is described separately to the section dealing with changes of date or time, making it clear that a non-permitted BoJ isn't considered a "change".

Condition 16.3 of the NRCoT sets out the only penalty for a non-permitted BoJ - having to pay the difference to the cheapest valid ticket that permits break of journey, i.e. a walk-up single.

If the intention were for the ticket to be considered invalid, rendering the passenger liable to pay a Penalty Fare, the NRCoT would have to say so - but they don't.

The above is just my musings, I'd be interested to see what people think.

However, I do note that the OP refers a few times to 'Northern's terms'.

I don't believe that Northern has a special conditions for Advance tickets that only they enforce. The conditions for advance tickets are national - and apply to all train companies and all trains equally.

I've certainly not come across any other TOCs attempting to enforce Advance break of journey rules as strictly as this (let alone incorrectly by means of a Penalty Fare). So whilst it may be a national condition, Northern are still outliers in the way they enforce it.

 

[Yinyang25]

Breaking Your Train Journey | National Rail

Many train tickets allow you to break your journey – getting off the train at a station somewhere on the route between your start and end stations before continuing your travel.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

There is the link to the terms of Northern Rail to which I am referring to.

I am not 100% sure, because it's not something that I deal with in my day-to-day duties, but when an advance ticket is excessed to a flexible ticket is there not a £10 admin fee? Such a fee would mean that a new fare is the sensible option In this specific case.

Further, the national rail conditions of carriage direct users of Advance tickets to the " special conditions for Advance tickets" on the national rail website. These conditions, when accessed, states that changes to advance tickets cannot be made on board the train.

The above is just my musings, I'd be interested to see what people think.

However, I do note that the OP refers a few times to 'Northern's terms'.

I don't believe that Northern has a special conditions for Advance tickets that only they enforce. The conditions for advance tickets are national - and apply to all train companies and all trains equally.

 

[anothertyke]

I've certainly not come across any other TOCs attempting to enforce Advance break of journey rules as strictly as this (let alone incorrectly by means of a Penalty Fare). So whilst it may be a national condition, Northern are still outliers in the way they enforce it.

But do other TOCs have big discounts on short distance fares you can buy up to five mins before departure? In my opinion this is a problem of Northern's own making. £3.60 York to Harrogate vs £9.30 Poppleton to Harrogate is ridiculous. So then stuff happens.

 

[John R]

But do other TOCs have big discounts on short distance fares you can buy up to five mins before departure? In my opinion this is a problem of Northern's own making. £3.60 York to Harrogate vs £9.30 Poppleton to Harrogate is ridiculous. So then stuff happens.

Agree advance fares for this type of journey are ridiculous, and completely contrary to the original intention of them as I understand it. But that's probably for another thread!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Dec 2023 ==

So I think the OP should appeal, quoting 16.3 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel, on the grounds that the correct action to take was to issue an excess fare, not to issue a Penalty Fare.

16.3 If you start, break or resume your journey at an intermediate station where you are not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. The price for this will be the difference between the amount paid for the Ticket you hold and the lowest price Ticket available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to start, break or resume your journey at the station concerned

 

[gray1404]

I rather think in a case like this it might have been worth having a word with the guard on boarding.

The Northern Advance fares are great. The amount of impromptu trips I have made on them that I would not have made otherwise because you can get them last minute is many.
Use them exactly as intended. Board and get off at the right station and on the correct train and you won't have a problem. If your booked train is canceled board the one before or after but have a word with the guard when they do their check and you'll get the nod.

Moving forward the OP is lucky that the rules are that an excess should have been issued so they should appeal on that basis.

 

[John R]

I rather think in a case like this it might have been worth having a word with the guard on boarding.

The OP said they didn't realise that what they were doing wasn't allowed.

 

[RPI]

But do other TOCs have big discounts on short distance fares you can buy up to five mins before departure? In my opinion this is a problem of Northern's own making. £3.60 York to Harrogate vs £9.30 Poppleton to Harrogate is ridiculous. So then stuff happens.

XC and GWR have similar, such journeys as Exeter to Plymouth, Newton Abbot and Totnes to Plymouth.

Also on the Exeter-Cardiff corridor, such journeys as Worle-Newport

 

[spag23]

£3.60 York to Harrogate vs £9.30 Poppleton to Harrogate is ridiculous.

So would it be worth (money and any time actually travelled) adding a Poppleton to York return, and doing a "bounce" off York?

 

[anothertyke]

I rather think in a case like this it might have been worth having a word with the guard on boarding.

The Northern Advance fares are great. The amount of impromptu trips I have made on them that I would not have made otherwise because you can get them last minute is many.
Use them exactly as intended. Board and get off at the right station and on the correct train and you won't have a problem. If your booked train is canceled board the one before or after but have a word with the guard when they do their check and you'll get the nod.

Moving forward the OP is lucky that the rules are that an excess should have been issued so they should appeal on that basis.

And don't board at Starbeck and get the one before!

 

[Yinyang25]

How does this sound?



Dear Sir/Madam,

I wish to appeal the penalty fare I was incorrectly issued on 14.12.23.

According to "The National Rail Conditions of Travel", page 13, 16.3: "If you start, break or resume your journey at an intermediate station where you are not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. The price for this will be the difference between the amount paid for the Ticket you hold and the lowest price Ticket available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to start, break or resume your journey at the station concerned."
https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e...572570/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel.pdf

I purchased a York to Harrogate ticket through the Northern app the evening before. However, on the morning, due to traffic into the city I accepted an offer of a lift to Poppleton, the intermediate station one stop nearer to Harrogate, rather than miss the train altogether and be late for work.

On board, a ticket inspector informed me that my ticket was not valid and issued me with a penalty fare notice, "Issue Reason: Other (PFN)" "Grounds Info: Boarded at wrong station on advance ticket (broke journey)"

As quoted in the opening paragraph, "The National Rail Conditions of Travel" clearly state that in this circumstance I was only liable to pay an excess fare.

Thank you for your time.

Yours faithfully,
---------------------.

 

[spag23]

Perhaps end with the action you require: "In view of this wrongly issued penalty fare, I look forward to your refunding it"

 

[John R]

The letter looks ok to me. Nice and straightforward. You shouldn't need to give the context of why you didn't board at York, as it's not relevant to the reason for your appeal, but I don't see a problem with leaving it in.

 

[island]

Perhaps end with the action you require: "In view of this wrongly issued penalty fare, I look forward to your refunding it"

The OP does not appear to have paid the penalty fare so this wouldn’t be appropriate. Even if they had, there are far more congenial ways to put it.

 

[WesternLancer]

The OP does not appear to have paid the penalty fare so this wouldn’t be appropriate. Even if they had, there are far more congenial ways to put it.

Indeed

perhaps better to end with the clear statement such as:

" I would be most grateful if you could uphold my Appeal and cancel the Penalty Fare that I was issued on board the train, which I believe was issued in error and contrary to the Conditions I have quoted above"

 

[yorkie]

It's incorrect for a Penalty Fare to be issued.

The correct remedy is to excess the ticket.

 

[yorkie]

From a previous thread:

Penalty Fare Notice - Burley Park to Harrogate Return

My son was issued with a Penalty Fare Notice this morning travelling from Burley Park to Harrogate - from what he says he had bought a Leeds to Harrogate Advance Single (£2.90 with Railcard - I assume he was going to get the same fare back later today) but boarded at Burley Park. Burley Park is...

www.railforums.co.uk

This Penalty Fare should be appealed if he was on the correct train.

The only circumstances someone can be Penalty Fared is as follows:

10.1 Train Companies are required to ensure that warning notices are clearly displayed at stations where Penalty Fares apply. You may be charged a Penalty Fare if:

10.1.1 You travel on a train service without a valid Ticket or Permit to Travel; or
10.1.2 You travel in first class accommodation with a standard class Ticket; or
10.1.3 You travel on a train service at a time when your service-specific Ticket is not valid (unless Condition 9.4 applies); or
10.1.4 You travel with a Train Company for which your Ticket is not valid; or
10.1.5 You do not have the necessary supporting document(s), where required (for example a valid Railcard or photocard).

The appropriate disposal for someone who has a ticket which covers their entire journey, but who breaks their journey when not otherwise entitled by their ticket is an excess to the ticket which does allow that break of journey. Likewise, for change of route excesses; being off route is not a Penalty fare matter.

Additionally, the industry has its own guidance that as long as clear fare evasion is not suspected, passengers should be permitted to start late or finish short on Advances without hindrance.

The contractual entitlement to the excess is at NRCOT 16.3:

16.3 If you start, break or resume your journey at an intermediate station where you are not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. The price for this will be the difference between the amount paid for the Ticket you hold and the lowest price Ticket available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to start, break or resume your journey at the station concerned.

And at 9.5:

9.5 Where you:
...
9.5.3 break your journey when you are not permitted to do so; you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

Appeal this and cite that.

A long-standing fundamental principle is that an authorised collector must not charge a penalty fare if this would conflict with the rights given to the person by the National Rail Conditions of Travel.

Furthermore, the Penalty Fares Guidelines 2018 document, states:

4. NON-PENALTY FARE TICKETLESS TRAVEL
Not every occasion a passenger travels without a valid ticket can result in a Penalty Fare being issued. In these situations, an Operator may,
• sell the correct ticket if facilities were not available at the start of a journey,
• charge the difference in fare from the ticket held to the correct ticket, or
• in some cases, report ticketless travel for prosecution.

This document is silent on what those circumstances are, therefore the only logical conclusion is to refer to the Conditions of Travel.

 

[Watershed]

How does this sound?



Dear Sir/Madam,

I wish to appeal the penalty fare I was incorrectly issued on 14.12.23.

According to "The National Rail Conditions of Travel", page 13, 16.3: "If you start, break or resume your journey at an intermediate station where you are not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. The price for this will be the difference between the amount paid for the Ticket you hold and the lowest price Ticket available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to start, break or resume your journey at the station concerned."
https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e...572570/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel.pdf

I purchased a York to Harrogate ticket through the Northern app the evening before. However, on the morning, due to traffic into the city I accepted an offer of a lift to Poppleton, the intermediate station one stop nearer to Harrogate, rather than miss the train altogether and be late for work.

On board, a ticket inspector informed me that my ticket was not valid and issued me with a penalty fare notice, "Issue Reason: Other (PFN)" "Grounds Info: Boarded at wrong station on advance ticket (broke journey)"

As quoted in the opening paragraph, "The National Rail Conditions of Travel" clearly state that in this circumstance I was only liable to pay an excess fare.

Thank you for your time.

Yours faithfully,
---------------------.

That looks good in general. I would perhaps slightly amend the last two paragraphs to become the following:

On board, a ticket inspector claimed that my ticket was not valid and issued me with a Penalty Fare Notice, "Issue Reason: Other (PFN)", "Grounds Info: Boarded at wrong station on advance ticket (broke journey)". This is not a valid reason for issuing a Penalty Fare under the Penalty Fares Regulations. I was travelling on my booked train and therefore my ticket was not invalid.

As quoted in my opening paragraph, the National Rail Conditions of Travel clearly states the outcome if a passenger breaks their journey where not permitted - that they are liable to pay the difference to the cheapest ticket that permits break of journey, i.e. an Anytime Day Single in this case. The Conditions of Travel do not refer to a Penalty Fare being able to be issued in these circumstances.

This is backed up by the rail industry's Penalty Fares Guidelines document from 2018, which states that:

4. NON-PENALTY FARE TICKETLESS TRAVEL​

Not every occasion a passenger travels without a valid ticket can result in a Penalty Fare being issued. In these situations, an Operator may,​

• sell the correct ticket if facilities were not available at the start of a journey,​

• charge the difference in fare from the ticket held to the correct ticket​

This case is one such occasion, and therefore the correct course of action would have been to charge the difference in fare. I would therefore ask that you allow this appeal and cancel the invalid Penalty Fare.