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UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

trebor79

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I find automatic lights to be much of the problem. When dipping manually you do so as soon as you see lights coming round a corner, whereas automatic lights don't seem to dip until they see oncoming headlights, which means you're momentarily blinded. I'd ban them to be honest.
Agree.
But I don't use the automatic high beam, because it's yet another of the Tesla automations that is absolutely useless. It's actually very good at dipping the lights when a human would, before the oncoming vehicle rounds the bend and gets dazzled. But they then stay dipped for a ridiculously long time after the other car has passed, so you're left barrelling along a country road at 60mph unable to see more than a few feet in front of you.
Fortunately it's the one automation that stays off when you turn it off, unlike the stupid wipers and dipped headlights.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Agree.
But I don't use the automatic high beam, because it's yet another of the Tesla automations that is absolutely useless. It's actually very good at dipping the lights when a human would, before the oncoming vehicle rounds the bend and gets dazzled. But they then stay dipped for a ridiculously long time after the other car has passed, so you're left barrelling along a country road at 60mph unable to see more than a few feet in front of you.
Fortunately it's the one automation that stays off when you turn it off, unlike the stupid wipers and dipped headlights.

Does it dip for cyclists and pedestrians? I suspect most don't, which is quite dangerous.

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I think it is dependent on the type of charging location. Some places will offer rapid charging for people who will stay in the vehicle or wait in a shop (getting a coffee, toilet break etc) and then there are places where people may wait longer - and indeed slow chargers at shopping centres, railway stations where people can and will park all day potentially.

I get the former, but if I'm stopping for a coffee I'm not watching the charge percentage, I'm having a coffee and will leave when I've finished it.

This is a symptom of inadequate charger provision. Realistically with full adoption they're going to be needed in near enough every space at service areas.
 

MotCO

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They'll be the same idiots that park in a parent and child space because they've got a child even though the child isn't with thethem
I have two children - does it matter if they are in their 30s ?

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Yep. Tesla driver here and I have noticed that I get "flashed" by oncoming vehicles way more often than I used to.The dipped setting does seem to illuminate more of the road than I am used to, and I have noticed it lights up roadside signs etc more than I am used to.
Are the lights set up too high? I have a manual adjustment to allow for heavy loads on the rear etc.
 

Bletchleyite

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I have two children - does it matter if they are in their 30s ?

These spaces are clearly intended for the use of parents with young children where the additional width is necessary to ease getting them out of the car, because they either can't get out themselves or they're too young to understand about not slamming the door back and putting a dent in the next car (so they're for the benefit not only of families but also those parked next to them).

If people need to resort to chapter and verse about when it's appropriate to use one, then there really is something lacking. Just think about why they exist and it's easy.
 

trebor79

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Does it dip for cyclists and pedestrians? I suspect most don't, which is quite dangerous.
Dunno because I don't use it. But the car can "see" pedestrians and pushbikes (to an extent - not until they are quite close IME), so I guess it could
I get the former, but if I'm stopping for a coffee I'm not watching the charge percentage, I'm having a coffee and will leave when I've finished it.
That's why Tesla give you 5 minutes grace before starting idle fees if the station is more than 50% occupied. But it's quite easy to game by just increasing the charge limit to 90% or 100% from the app if I need more time (not that I often do) as the last 20% of the battery takes as long or longer to fill as the previous 80%
This is a symptom of inadequate charger provision. Realistically with full adoption they're going to be needed in near enough every space at service areas.
No, I don't think so. Reality is I need to stop for a break more often than the car needs to be charged, in summer at least. Eg I drove from home near Norwich to Charnock Richard services in the summer. Started with 90% battery and arrived there 238 miles (at normal motorway speed) later with 11% battery having stopped at Norton Canes for a meal and comfort break but no charge.
Coming home I left from just north of Preston with 85% battery. Tesla told me to stop at Rugby to charge, but when I got there is was busy so I just drove on. Stopped at Cambridge for comfort and tea but no charge and pulled into Elvedon supercharger site with 4% battery after 258 motorway miles for a quick 5 minute top up to get me home. I also stopped at Norton Canes again and somewhere else for a break etc. Really quite remarkable to have driven that distance on the energy contained in about 5.5 litres of petrol and I wasn't slipstreaming lorries or driving at 60mp or anything daft like that, just drove normally. Just shows how ridiculously inefficient the internal combustion engine is.

This time of year I would need a charge stop on those journeys, but I'd probably only need to charge for 15 minutes or so. My regular commute to London and back is consuming 40% each way whereas it was 29-32% in the summer. Having said that, the only supercharging I've done recently is sub 5-minute top ups at Elveden to get me home, but I've started just charging to 90% and paying 7.5p/kWh instead of the 36-47p at the Supercharger.
 
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Bletchleyite

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No, I don't think so. Reality is I need to stop for a break more often than the car needs to be charged, in summer at least. Eg I drove from home near Norwich to Charnock Richard services in the summer. Started with 90% battery and arrived there 238 miles (at normal motorway speed) later with 11% battery having stopped at Norton Canes for a meal and comfort break but no charge.

...

Coming home I left from just north of Preston with 85% battery. Tesla told me to stop at Rugby to charge, but when I got there is was busy so I just drove on. Stopped at Cambridge for comfort and tea but no charge and pulled into Elvedon supercharger site with 4% battery after 258 motorway miles for a quick 5 minute top up to get me home.

I can't ever contemplate the idea of that little slack. I refuel my diesel car when it gets to 25%. The light has only been on once in the time I've owned it when I was a bit tired and thus not paying attention to the fuel level. You never know when something unexpected might come up, e.g. a closed charger/petrol station, power cut or need to do an extra trip e.g. if you get to your hotel and have been "bumped" to another as occasionally happens because like airlines hotels overbook expecting some no-shows.

I would certainly do the same with an EV. In some ways more so, because a charge takes time, whereas filling a tank of diesel takes about 5 minutes.
 

trebor79

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[getting to a charger with 11% or 4% battery]

I can't ever contemplate the idea of that little slack. I refuel my diesel car when it gets to 25%. The light has only been on once in the time I've owned it when I was a bit tired and thus not paying attention to the fuel level. You never know when something unexpected might come up, e.g. a closed charger/petrol station, power cut or need to do an extra trip e.g. if you get to your hotel and have been "bumped" to another as occasionally happens because like airlines hotels overbook expecting some no-shows.

I would certainly do the same with an EV. In some ways more so, because a charge takes time, whereas filling a tank of diesel takes about 5 minutes.
It's a different mindset. I ran my ICE the same way you do to avoid having to go out of my way on a long journey, pay motorway prices etc

With an EV, arriving at a rapid charger with a low SOC is better, because it will charge more quickly. My Tesla will charge at 250kW, but it's down to 100kW at 50% and 60kW at 80%. So filling that first half of the battery takes maybe 15 minutes and (winter - summer) will add 140 - 180 miles of range in that time. Easily enough for another two to three hours on the motorway by which time I want to stop again anyway.

There's a bank of Superchargers in the hotel car park at Charnock Richard, so I plugged in at 11% and went and checked in. By the time I'd done that and dumped my stuff in the room it was at 90% so unplugged, moved it to a normal space and went to bed.

I feel totally comfortable running it down to a low SOC. I know in summer it does about 3.5 miles per % at 70mph, and in the very cold weather it will do a little less than 2.5 per % after the initial efficiency hit early in the journey. I can actually get in for say a 150 mile journey and it will give me it's prediction of arrival SOC and I'll think "yep, that's about right or "no chance, it'll be x" and I'm always right within a % or so. It's very predictable and much more accurate than a fuel gauge.
Plus my electricity at home is an order of magnitude cheaper than any I can buy en route, so I won't stop to charge unless I absolutely need to.

That long drive from Preston I gained a little on the car consumption prediction, such that when it said I'd have to wait 5 minutes at Rugby I thought "sod it, I've got 33%, it's 93 miles to Elveden and that'll be quiet, let's skip this one" using my rule of thumb. If I'd got it wrong there are a couple of other options I could have dived into as an emergency top up, but they're about double the supercharger price and more than ten times my overnight electricity rate.

So yes, different mindset. Reality is I've never been inconvenienced by having to charge and journeys take no longer than by ICE, and I arrive feeling less fatigued. I drive 1,000 miles a week some weeks and there's absolutely nothing that could convince me to go back to ICE.
 

jon0844

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I get the former, but if I'm stopping for a coffee I'm not watching the charge percentage, I'm having a coffee and will leave when I've finished it.

This is a symptom of inadequate charger provision. Realistically with full adoption they're going to be needed in near enough every space at service areas.

Your app warns you, but others have stated how you can 'buy' more time and it should only be at sites with limited capacity. Over time, if we get more car parks like that at the NEC, it becomes unnecessary.
 

MotCO

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These spaces are clearly intended for the use of parents with young children where the additional width is necessary to ease getting them out of the car, because they either can't get out themselves or they're too young to understand about not slamming the door back and putting a dent in the next car (so they're for the benefit not only of families but also those parked next to them).

If people need to resort to chapter and verse about when it's appropriate to use one, then there really is something lacking. Just think about why they exist and it's easy.
I had my tongue firmly in my cheek.
 

Bald Rick

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Or even EVs that just park in a charging bay. There was one EV owner who did this regularly at my local supermarket.

Whilst I am an EV fan, I have been frustrated twice in recent weeks by EVs parked at the petrol pumps of a busy petrol station…. (I blame the driver, not the car).


I refuel my diesel car when it gets to 25%. The light has only been on once in the time I've owned it when I was a bit tired and thus not paying attention to the fuel level.

Wow - think of sll the time you’ve wasted! I usually fill mine up when the range remaining is 10 miles or less, exceptions being when I know I have a long journey to make and the opportunity to fill up cheaply won’t be there in those last few miles. Or if the price is about to go up significnatly. I‘m with Clarkson on this, I have better things to do in life than finding / queuing / paying for fuel at petrol stations , so do it as little as possible.
 

bspahh

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Wow - think of sll the time you’ve wasted! I usually fill mine up when the range remaining is 10 miles or less, exceptions being when I know I have a long journey to make and the opportunity to fill up cheaply won’t be there in those last few miles. Or if the price is about to go up significnatly. I‘m with Clarkson on this, I have better things to do in life than finding / queuing / paying for fuel at petrol stations , so do it as little as possible.
I'll make a point of filling up if the low fuel light comes on, when there are ~10 litres (100 miles) left, and earlier than that if I pass somewhere that is particularly cheap.
At 25%, I'd be able to go another 175 miles, which seems a lot.

After fuel shortages a couple of times in the last 2 decades, I'd rather not run on fumes in case theres another one.
 

jon0844

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Whilst I am an EV fan, I have been frustrated twice in recent weeks by EVs parked at the petrol pumps of a busy petrol station…. (I blame the driver, not the car).

Before pay at pump, I remember being stuck at many a petrol station with a shop that encouraged people to fill up, go inside, spend ten minutes (maybe an exaggeration but it certainly felt like that) shopping, paying and then walking back slowly via the boot. Many stations are simply too small to allow for people to overtake.
 

PeterC

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Whilst I am an EV fan, I have been frustrated twice in recent weeks by EVs parked at the petrol pumps of a busy petrol station…. (I blame the driver, not the car).
I have never seen that done with an EV but I have known drivers park at a pump just to use the shop are they frightened of reversing in/out of the parking bays, bloody minded or just stupid?
 

Energy

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I have never seen that done with an EV but I have known drivers park at a pump just to use the shop are they frightened of reversing in/out of the parking bays, bloody minded or just stupid?
To be fair a lot of petrol stations have terrible parking and put even less thought into where people walk, forcing people to walk across the forecourt.
 

Deafdoggie

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I can't ever contemplate the idea of that little slack. I refuel my diesel car when it gets to 25%. The light has only been on once in the time I've owned it when I was a bit tired and thus not paying attention to the fuel level. You never know when something unexpected might come up, e.g. a closed charger/petrol station, power cut or need to do an extra trip e.g. if you get to your hotel and have been "bumped" to another as occasionally happens because like airlines hotels overbook expecting some no-shows.

I would certainly do the same with an EV. In some ways more so, because a charge takes time, whereas filling a tank of diesel takes about 5 minutes.
I know what you mean, but in my EV I don't like getting much below 20% when "out" but I'm happy to get lower when I'm heading home, as I know I can charge there without issue.
 

trebor79

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I know what you mean, but in my EV I don't like getting much below 20% when "out" but I'm happy to get lower when I'm heading home, as I know I can charge there without issue.
What EV have you got? Going to a low SOC before rapid charging is a massive time saver with some vehicles. My Tesla will charge 4 times more quickly at 10% than 80%, and over twice as quickly at 10% than 50%.
Our Kia Niro the difference isn't so great, about 70kW at best at low SOC versus about 40kW at 80%. But I can't recall the last time we charged that away from home anyway.
 

Deafdoggie

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It's a Leaf. On Chademo it isn't massively fast at any time! But, the flip side is that it means it doesn't slow down at all till at least 93%
 

Bletchleyite

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I know what you mean, but in my EV I don't like getting much below 20% when "out" but I'm happy to get lower when I'm heading home, as I know I can charge there without issue.

True, that is different, but I wouldn't be running down to near-zero percentages because you never know if you'll need to divert or do another emergency journey, or there could be a power cut or electrical fault.

If I had a hypothetical petrol station at home (which an EV driver effectively does) I reckon I'd be OK with using 10% or so as the threshold when heading home from relatively close by, but not below that.
 

trebor79

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True, that is different, but I wouldn't be running down to near-zero percentages because you never know if you'll need to divert or do another emergency journey, or there could be a power cut or electrical fault.
This is like the hypothetical "but what if I suddenly need to take great auntie Mabel to hospital 150 miles away soon after I've returned?"
Times I've been unable to charge because there's a power cut or fault affecting all chargers. Zero.
Times in my ICE vehicles I was unable to refuel because the petrol station was having a delivery, had no fuel, was closed due to staff shortage, was closed because it was outside their opening hours. Many.

The Tesla system will notify you (and automatically reroute to another charger) if the site you are heading for goes offline. Other vehicles have similar functionality with third party charge networks. It did just that to me a few weeks ago when I was planning a pit stop for Rugby, about 15 miles out it said the site was closed and rerouted me. I rocked up anyway as I needed a wee. Some Tesla techs were there doing routine maintenance and told me which of the banks of chargers were actually working, so I got my charge anyway.
If I had a hypothetical petrol station at home (which an EV driver effectively does) I reckon I'd be OK with using 10% or so as the threshold when heading home from relatively close by, but not below that.
I've got home with less than 5% on multiple occasions. No point buying expensive electricity just to take it home with me where I can fill up for pennies. I know how much battery the car uses between set landmarks and home, and there's a supercharger site within about 20 miles radius to the north, south and west, along with third party chargers. So where ever I'm heading from, I can always dive in for a pit stop if it looks dicey.
 

Alex McKenna

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Given the significant obstacles involved with using electric cars and the massive change in infrastructure that would be required do you think it’s practical.

I’m especially thinking of those that live in blocks of flats that have no choice but to park on the street or those who do long distance commuting and it may not be practical to stop mid journey to charge up.
About 60% of households DO have space for home charging, and the remaining 40% can either use top-up charging wherever they travel to (work, shops, parking spaces); or use lamp-post chargers or other solutions to charge from their house. Thousands of EV owners in that situation seem to cope rather well - just ask one. The "Fully Charged" channel is there to dispell all those pro-petrol FUDs. Fact is - EVs in UK are gaining ground at such a rate - now coming up to 20% of new cars - next year probably 30%, as are most states in Europe. Norway is now about 90% EV. They seem to have no problem... and neither will we.
 

Bletchleyite

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This is like the hypothetical "but what if I suddenly need to take great auntie Mabel to hospital 150 miles away soon after I've returned?"

It's not quite, because unlike my ICE at 25% fuel level it also prevents a local journey - e.g. "oh, the bread's mouldy, need to go to the 24hr supermarket for more".

I am NOT going to wilfully take the risk to run my vehicle down to sub 10%, never, ever, just isn't happening. "Thou shalt change thy mindset" isn't going to sell EVs. Give me a 300 mile actual EV range and I'll be able to happily use my standard 25% policy, and that sort of range is coming soon or probably already exists on some Teslas.
 

Bantamzen

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About 60% of households DO have space for home charging, and the remaining 40% can either use top-up charging wherever they travel to (work, shops, parking spaces); or use lamp-post chargers or other solutions to charge from their house. Thousands of EV owners in that situation seem to cope rather well - just ask one. The "Fully Charged" channel is there to dispell all those pro-petrol FUDs. Fact is - EVs in UK are gaining ground at such a rate - now coming up to 20% of new cars - next year probably 30%, as are most states in Europe. Norway is now about 90% EV. They seem to have no problem... and neither will we.
Its true that many homes have space, whether they have the finances to buy an EV and a charging point is another matter. As for those that don't (I'm not sure where you get your figures from by the way), I'd ask where are these lamp post or other solutions? Where I live there are certainly none, and a cursory glance at a charging point map shows around 7-8 charging stations for a population of around 18K. This probably explains why EVs aren't as popular where I am, as the area has a mix of homes with driveways, terraced homes and apartment blocks. I have seen one EV owner living in an apartment using an extension lead hanging out of their 2nd floor window, across a section of grass, pavement and finally to their car. Probably not an ideal solution.

My point is that just because some areas are better appointed with charging facilities, doesn't mean that everywhere else is. Many areas have a long way to go before EVs are going to be truly viable for everyone.
 

jon0844

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Just like an ICE vehicle, an EV seems to be very conservative when showing remaining charge/range - and many YouTube videos show what happens when a car gets to 0% - it reduces power, but in some cases can carry on driving in a limp mode for many miles. I think one vehicle did almost 50 miles at a vastly reduced speed on a track.
 

Deafdoggie

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It's not quite, because unlike my ICE at 25% fuel level it also prevents a local journey - e.g. "oh, the bread's mouldy, need to go to the 24hr supermarket for more".

I am NOT going to wilfully take the risk to run my vehicle down to sub 10%, never, ever, just isn't happening. "Thou shalt change thy mindset" isn't going to sell EVs. Give me a 300 mile actual EV range and I'll be able to happily use my standard 25% policy, and that sort of range is coming soon or probably already exists on some Tesla
I guess it depends on many factors. Generally if I'm that low it's because I'm on a motorway journey and I'll check the traffic before passing the last motorway services before home. We live within 2 miles of the motorway junction so it's not too bad and I'd rather get home than stop to charge so close to home.
But some people drive petrol cars with the low fuel warning light on all the time!
 

trebor79

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It's not quite, because unlike my ICE at 25% fuel level it also prevents a local journey - e.g. "oh, the bread's mouldy, need to go to the 24hr supermarket for more".
Well in my case I just jump into the other EV.
I am NOT going to wilfully take the risk to run my vehicle down to sub 10%, never, ever, just isn't happening. "Thou shalt change thy mindset" isn't going to sell EVs. Give me a 300 mile actual EV range and I'll be able to happily use my standard 25% policy, and that sort of range is coming soon or probably already exists on some Teslas.
Those cars exist yes. And of course if somebody wants to load up with expensive DC rapid electricity to arrive home with an expensive comfort blanket that's their choice. But it's not an optimal way to use an EV. If you just apply a petrol mindset to how you manage your "tank", you'll charge more often and way more expensively than you need to. But that's a cost/benefit assessment that can only be made by the individual.
"If thou changes your mindset you can reduce your fuel costs to less than 10% of ICE" does sell EVs.
 

Deafdoggie

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Its true that many homes have space, whether they have the finances to buy an EV and a charging point is another matter. As for those that don't (I'm not sure where you get your figures from by the way), I'd ask where are these lamp post or other solutions? Where I live there are certainly none, and a cursory glance at a charging point map shows around 7-8 charging stations for a population of around 18K. This probably explains why EVs aren't as popular where I am, as the area has a mix of homes with driveways, terraced homes and apartment blocks. I have seen one EV owner living in an apartment using an extension lead hanging out of their 2nd floor window, across a section of grass, pavement and finally to their car. Probably not an ideal solution.

My point is that just because some areas are better appointed with charging facilities, doesn't mean that everywhere else is. Many areas have a long way to go before EVs are going to be truly viable for everyone.
I believe there are many residential lamppost chargers in London. But I've never seen any anywhere else. Certainly up North they remain a dream.
 

Bletchleyite

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Well in my case I just jump into the other EV.

Your options are certainly widened if you're a two car household. Of course not everyone is.

Those cars exist yes. And of course if somebody wants to load up with expensive DC rapid electricity to arrive home with an expensive comfort blanket that's their choice. But it's not an optimal way to use an EV. If you just apply a petrol mindset to how you manage your "tank", you'll charge more often and way more expensively than you need to. But that's a cost/benefit assessment that can only be made by the individual.

Indeed. To be fair my view does tally with my approach to rail ticketing, where I largely don't do Advances due to the convenience and reassurance* of walk-up fares.

* Of a wide set of options in disruption and not relying on discretion.

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I believe there are many residential lamppost chargers in London. But I've never seen any anywhere else. Certainly up North they remain a dream.

They're separate posts but there are some by me.
 

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