UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[trebor79]

Even if companies come along that will offer to do battery repairs and servicing (and I am sure they will increase in numbers) the industry needs to stop practices such as tying a battery to a specific car, and not allowing batteries to be moved, from say a written off car with a working battery. I believe Tesla does this, and like Apple it means you are in effect forced to deal with the car maker - who can then force you to buy a brand new battery.

In such circumstances, that means insurers will be basic risk on the cost of a new battery for a Tesla that, thanks to the nice little protection racket, will have an eyewatering price.

Is not the moral of that story "don't buy a Tesla"? There are many reasons why one should not, not least not giving money to Musk.

Other manufacturers are likely to behave more conventionally I'd have thought.

How is replacement of a traction battery any different to say replacement of a gearbox or engine in an ICE vehicle? You're going to have to go tot the OEM in all three cases?

I won't buy another Tesla because they've removed the indicator stalks which is ridiculous and a deal breaker for me. And there are things I don't like at all about the one I have. But it does the job I bought it for with aplomb and I never even think about where I'm going to charge. They really have set the bar in terms of how the vehicle and charging infrastructure should be made to "just work".
WRT to Musk's politics, I pay not attention and couldn't care less. For all I know the people running VW etc might be equally horrendous but just keep quiet about it. Weren't the family who own BMW supposed to be quite obnoxious? In any case, it's not a reason for me to cut my nose off and buy a vehicle that isn't as good for my purposes as the one I have

 

[jon0844]

Do other car makers stop you going to a breakers yard and getting a second hand engine or gearbox and fitting it to your car? You cannot fit any battery to a Tesla - it must be paired up with the vehicle.

Now, sure, you have a BMS and I get that it would need to be calibrated, but only Tesla will do that. No third party access. Sure, you might be able to get anyone to service it - but nobody else can really repair it.

Now, for all I know, BMW, Audi or Mercedes may have found a way to restrict 'foreign' parts being fitted to an ICE car also. It's not a good thing, any more than the subscriptions for accessing certain features fitted to your car - which BMW has partially reversed, but I have no doubt will still occur in due course and become accepted by people who will be happy to get features they can pay for later (and keep paying for, given most people will subscribe monthly and not pay the hefty 'lifetime' fee that doesn't even transfer to a new owner, so when you sell the car you can't say it can do this and that, as the new owner will need to pay again).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I won't buy another Tesla because they've removed the indicator stalks which is ridiculous and a deal breaker for me.

How does one indicate?

 

[MotCO]

How does one indicate?

Hand signals? Or don't they bother - just like Beemer drivers!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hand signals? Or don't they bother - just like Beemer drivers!

There is the old joke that BMW indicators are an expensive optional extra that most people don't specify, I suppose, but a car *not having* them?

 

[Speed43125]

How does one indicate?

Buttons on the steering wheel. Similar, incidentally, to modern Paddle Shift Ferraris.

I agree particularly on roundabouts, the physical, stationary stalk is clearly the superior method.

 

[MotCO]

Buttons on the steering wheel. Similar, incidentally, to modern Paddle Shift Ferraris.

Is that like the phone and radio buttons on the steering wheel? I can't answer the phone when going round a roundabout since I don't know where the button has got to!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Buttons on the steering wheel. Similar, incidentally, to modern Paddle Shift Ferraris.

I agree particularly on roundabouts, the physical, stationary stalk is clearly the superior method.

That'd put me right off. It's surprisingly hard to do muscle memory on wheel buttons as they're not always in the same physical place, because the wheel moves (obviously).

I dislike flappy paddle gearboxes anyway (what's the point? You either want a manual for full control, or you want an auto for convenience) but that would make those worse too. Good job I'll never have the cash for a Ferrari!

 

[jon0844]

How does one indicate?

With great difficulty if you turn the wheel (like, say, a roundabout) as you use buttons on the wheel and so they move and can be unreachable and upside down.

Elon is clearly a buffoon, but quite likely someone who wouldn't indicate so probably doesn't think it's an issue.

Some fans have said the car could indicate automatically based on the navigation you've set, but clearly there are times when you need to indicate that the navigation won't know about - and what if you choose to deviate from the route?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some fans have said the car could indicate automatically based on the navigation you've set, but clearly there are times when you need to indicate that the navigation won't know about - and what if you choose to deviate from the route?

Or change lanes, where you're meant to indicate BEFORE doing so, not during as some people do!

It's just an utterly stupid idea, just like having to go through several layers of menu to change the fan speed. There's nothing wrong with a stalk.

 

[trebor79]

Do other car makers stop you going to a breakers yard and getting a second hand engine or gearbox and fitting it to your car? You cannot fit any battery to a Tesla - it must be paired up with the vehicle.

Now, sure, you have a BMS and I get that it would need to be calibrated, but only Tesla will do that. No third party access. Sure, you might be able to get anyone to service it - but nobody else can really repair it.

Now, for all I know, BMW, Audi or Mercedes may have found a way to restrict 'foreign' parts being fitted to an ICE car also. It's not a good thing, any more than the subscriptions for accessing certain features fitted to your car - which BMW has partially reversed, but I have no doubt will still occur in due course and become accepted by people who will be happy to get features they can pay for later (and keep paying for, given most people will subscribe monthly and not pay the hefty 'lifetime' fee that doesn't even transfer to a new owner, so when you sell the car you can't say it can do this and that, as the new owner will need to pay again).

The 12 year old Renault Scenic I scrapped had a sat nav and radio that were coded to the car, despite the fact that they were built into the dash and every Scenic without them had a different dash design so you couldn't fit a stolen one anyway. I bought it second hand but said to the independant dealer "I'll buy it if you fix the sat nav", which he did but it cost him over a grand as he had to have the replacements coded to the car.
No good reason for it at all, other than a way for Renault to stiff anyone who needed a replacement or forgot the pin code after disconnecting the battery

How does one indicate?

Buttons on the steering wheel. Similar, incidentally, to modern Paddle Shift Ferraris.

That'd put me right off. It's surprisingly hard to do muscle memory on wheel buttons as they're not always in the same physical place, because the wheel moves (obviously).

Yup. Which is why I'll not be buying any more Teslas. Deal breaker. Some third party company is making a kit but I suspect it'll be some battery operated stick on crap like the buttons they make "s3xy buttons" so I'm not having that and in any case you shouldn't need to buy 3rd party tat to bring proper usability to a new car. Buttons might be OK in America where they tend not to have roundabouts and most junctions are right angles on straight roads. No good at all for UK.

Some fans have said the car could indicate automatically based on the navigation you've set, but clearly there are times when you need to indicate that the navigation won't know about - and what if you choose to deviate from the route?

Well, I've seen the blue line on the sat nav showing me to go the wrong way round a roundabout on more than one occasion, so I wouldn't trust the car to indicate for me, let alone auto steer.

 

[renegademaster]

Is not the moral of that story "don't buy a Tesla"? There are many reasons why one should not, not least not giving money to Musk.

Other manufacturers are likely to behave more conventionally I'd have thought.

I'm not aware of the other manufactures being any better.
Tesla has released their patents at least

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not aware of the other manufactures being any better.

Other manufacturers don't line the pockets of Elon Musk.

 

[renegademaster]

Other manufacturers don't line the pockets of Elon Musk.

That has nothing to do with their friendliness to right of repair. Tesla is miles better than rest, it's just repairing batteries isn't exactly an easy task.
Most ICE cars have the same vendor lock-in problem, just with ICE the components that fail most often are little parts while with electric it's the part worth 50% of the cars value.

Standards will help but a big expense is the safety precautions that needed to be taken when fixing batteries, plus warranty requirements never like you using third party parts

 

[AM9]

That has nothing to do with their friendliness to right of repair. Tesla is miles better than rest, it's just repairing batteries isn't exactly an easy task.
Most ICE cars have the same vendor lock-in problem, just with ICE the components that fail most often are little parts while with electric it's the part worth 50% of the cars value.

Standards will help but a big expense is the safety precautions that needed to be taken when fixing batteries, plus warranty requirements never like you using third party parts

Wouldn't a battery failure, (very rare as they are) be fixed under the battery warranty?

 

[507021]

There is the old joke that BMW indicators are an expensive optional extra that most people don't specify, I suppose, but a car *not having* them?

An outdated joke, as I think you'll find that type of BMW driver has jumped ship to Audi.

 

[stuu]

An outdated joke, as I think you'll find that type of BMW driver has jumped ship to Audi.

Actually, and totally on topic, I have found recently that Teslas seem to be driven in the manner of BMWs in the past - full beams in the outside lane, jumping between lanes on roundabouts, no indicating (although perhaps that's because they can't find the button)

 

[paul1609]

But how likely is the battery to be damaged in the first place?
I saw a Fully Charged video about the BYD Seal the other day. They showed a test BYD had done to test the structural battery. They did the side impact test into a pole set into the floor on BOTH sides of the car, doors wrecked, car written off etc. They then removed the battery from the test car, showed it was completely pristine externally, then fitted it to another undamaged Seal and drove it away.

With either of our EV's I'm pretty sure that normal shunts and bumps from the side wouldn't affect the battery which is under the floor. By the time the battery is getting damaged, the car's going to be a write off anyway.

Some batteries are not really repairable anyway. The battery pack on my Model 3 for example is sealed with glue and membranes that get destroyed by disassembly. The Model S I believe has (or had) a pack that can be disassembled, but even then, breaking and making the connections to the individual cells and modules is very specialist and (certainly in the case of the Model 3) not really something that can be done by hand. Battery repair is non-trivial anyway. It's not as simple as just swapping out some damaged cells for new ones.
Really, the solution is likely to be that you just put a new battery in and the old one is sent for recycling. Similar to if the timing belt on your ICE breaks it's cheaper to just fit a new/second hand engine rather than attempt to rebuild the smashed up one (if indeed you keep the vehicle at all). The EV battery recycling industry is in its infancy but will scale rapidly as more raw material becomes available to it.

As I understand it to accomodate fast charging the batteries are no longer just batteries they are batteries that include quite sophisticated electronics. The battery in Jaguars is called a Traction Battery Module but other manufacturers are the same basically in an accident they are failing because of a short condition or shock to this electrical equipment. The electronics are sealed with the actual batteries and nobody can currently repair them. This doesnt require physical damage to the battery but the only repair option is to replace the battery module. If what you see on the internet is true a lot of I paces are currently off the road awaiting replacement battery modules from Korea.

 

[507021]

Actually, and totally on topic, I have found recently that Teslas seem to be driven in the manner of BMWs in the past - full beams in the outside lane, jumping between lanes on roundabouts, no indicating (although perhaps that's because they can't find the button)

Absolutely, I've noticed this too. During the time I drove an EV (only went back to ICE as my requirements have changed), I noticed it's nearly always an Audi or Tesla sat on charge in the EV bays despite having over 80% battery remaining. I mean, do they really need to take up a charger which could be used by someone who actually needs to charge their car?

 

[PeterC]

Absolutely, I've noticed this too. During the time I drove an EV (only went back to ICE as my requirements have changed), I noticed it's nearly always an Audi or Tesla sat on charge in the EV bays despite having over 80% battery remaining. I mean, do they really need to take up a charger which could be used by someone who actually needs to charge their car?

Maybe that explains why I often see a queue for the Tesla chargers at South Mimms

 

[paul1609]

Maybe that explains why I often see a queue for the Tesla chargers at South Mimms

That's the Tesla M25 Boy Racers Club charging their mums cars before the morning. Also frequently seen on the A27 near Chichester.

 

[trebor79]

Absolutely, I've noticed this too. During the time I drove an EV (only went back to ICE as my requirements have changed), I noticed it's nearly always an Audi or Tesla sat on charge in the EV bays despite having over 80% battery remaining. I mean, do they really need to take up a charger which could be used by someone who actually needs to charge their car?

In the case of the Audi, probably they do yes. Shockingly low efficiency and the charge curve actually stays quite high even towards the top end of the charge.

Maybe that explains why I often see a queue for the Tesla chargers at South Mimms

There are only 4 and they are max 130kW which is the lowest I've seen for Tesla Supercharger, and in reality you get half that if the bay next is occupied (which it basically always is as it's such a small site at a busy location).
I avoid it.

 

[jon0844]

Absolutely, I've noticed this too. During the time I drove an EV (only went back to ICE as my requirements have changed), I noticed it's nearly always an Audi or Tesla sat on charge in the EV bays despite having over 80% battery remaining. I mean, do they really need to take up a charger which could be used by someone who actually needs to charge their car?

Don't some companies charge a penalty per minute (after, say, a five minute grace period) if you remain in a space? If not, they should.

Of course, it's harder to deal with ICE cars that just park in a charging bay - as it would likely need a real human being to issue a penalty notice and comply with all the necessary regulations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Don't some companies charge a penalty per minute (after, say, a five minute grace period) if you remain in a space? If not, they should.

You kill the whole convenience idea if you do that, as you can no longer park, plug in and go about your normal business, you have to stay nearby to move the car when charged.

I'd not buy an EV if that was the rule everywhere.

 

[bspahh]

Don't some companies charge a penalty per minute (after, say, a five minute grace period) if you remain in a space? If not, they should.

Tesla charge an extra fee 5 minutes after the charging has finished. Its 50p/minute or £1 a minute if the station is 100% occupied.

https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/support/charging/supercharger/fees

I would check the terms of other charging systems for how long you can stay. They can be different for different speeds of charger.

 

[PeterC]

Of course, it's harder to deal with ICE cars that just park in a charging bay - as it would likely need a real human being to issue a penalty notice and comply with all the necessary regulations.

Or even EVs that just park in a charging bay. There was one EV owner who did this regularly at my local supermarket.

 

[jon0844]

You kill the whole convenience idea if you do that, as you can no longer park, plug in and go about your normal business, you have to stay nearby to move the car when charged.

I'd not buy an EV if that was the rule everywhere.

I think it is dependent on the type of charging location. Some places will offer rapid charging for people who will stay in the vehicle or wait in a shop (getting a coffee, toilet break etc) and then there are places where people may wait longer - and indeed slow chargers at shopping centres, railway stations where people can and will park all day potentially.

The new car park at the NEC has a mix of rapid chargers (presumably with a time limit) and slower chargers for attendees at exhibitions etc.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2023 ==

Or even EVs that just park in a charging bay. There was one EV owner who did this regularly at my local supermarket.

They'll be the same idiots that park in a parent and child space because they've got a child even though the child isn't with them.

 

[StKeverne1497]

Actually, and totally on topic, I have found recently that Teslas seem to be driven in the manner of BMWs in the past - full beams in the outside lane, jumping between lanes on roundabouts, no indicating (although perhaps that's because they can't find the button)

With my commute now being nearly all in darkness, I've noticed a glut of cars and small vans with "dazzling" headlights. Don't get me started on "white-white" or "blue-white" lights, but I'm most annoyed by the ones which dazzle you, however far away they are, behind or in front. It is not - as far as I can tell - because the driver has put the full beam on, it's something to do with the way the lights are set up. And while it's not exclusively Teslas, it does seem to me as if the vast majority of cars with this problem are in fact Teslas.

Speaking as someone who had to have his car's (normal, Halogen) headlights adjusted before it would pass the MoT test this year.

 

[trebor79]

With my commute now being nearly all in darkness, I've noticed a glut of cars and small vans with "dazzling" headlights. Don't get me started on "white-white" or "blue-white" lights, but I'm most annoyed by the ones which dazzle you, however far away they are, behind or in front. It is not - as far as I can tell - because the driver has put the full beam on, it's something to do with the way the lights are set up. And while it's not exclusively Teslas, it does seem to me as if the vast majority of cars with this problem are in fact Teslas.

Speaking as someone who had to have his car's (normal, Halogen) headlights adjusted before it would pass the MoT test this year.

Yep. Tesla driver here and I have noticed that I get "flashed" by oncoming vehicles way more often than I used to.The dipped setting does seem to illuminate more of the road than I am used to, and I have noticed it lights up roadside signs etc more than I am used to.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yep. Tesla driver here and I have noticed that I get "flashed" by oncoming vehicles way more often than I used to.The dipped setting does seem to illuminate more of the road than I am used to, and I have noticed it lights up roadside signs etc more than I am used to.

I find automatic lights to be much of the problem. When dipping manually you do so as soon as you see lights coming round a corner, whereas automatic lights don't seem to dip until they see oncoming headlights, which means you're momentarily blinded. I'd ban them to be honest.