West Yorkshire "Enhanced Partnership Plus" proposal

[Tetchytyke]

With franchising your limited to what it is set out in the franchise - I cannot see how a small independant would be able to fulfil the franchise requirements without vast sums of cash to pay for additional items to meet the requirements (e.g. engine modifications).

How many independents are operating commercial services in West Yorkshire though? There are a couple out in the wilds of Pontefract with barely a handful of routes between them, but beyond that I can’t think of much.

We shouldn’t do franchising because an independent with three buses and one route in rural Hemsworth might have to buy a new bus. Hmm.

You’re also supposing a lot about emissions standards. Assuming they mandate anything, Euro VI seems likely. The Euro VI standards are now ten years old, they’re not new standards. Stringers have Mellor Stratas which are Euro VI anyway, but otherwise the cost of acquiring mid-life buses can be included in any tender.

The independents in West Yorkshire are the ones running the tenders already. TLC in Bradford already runs everything First decides not to bother with.

The £2 fare is alright in urban areas, its just in rural areas which is causing some damage as there's less people and with less people, less income is generated to retain the service even with subsidy

There aren’t any commercial services in the rural bits of West Yorkshire, though, so it doesn’t matter if they don’t break even.

Two people paying £2 is better than one person paying £3.90, also.

 

[WAB]

Full sized rear adverts promoting the £2 fare and the £4.50 Metro DaySaver would be the way to go, this would include printing it in the timetables, at bus stops and even in the toilets in shopping centres and motorway services and even on advertising hordings.

Already widespread in WY, but still the cuts continue...

I could imagine operators such as Stringers throwing in the towel and calling it a day and just because they're using slighting older equiptment which wouldn't meet another set of invented regulations.

Invented regulations which exist for a reason, namely air quality and carbon emissions. At this point, Euro VI is not so much of a big ask.

 

[Deerfold]

With franchising your limited to what it is set out in the franchise - I cannot see how a small independant would be able to fulfil the franchise requirements without vast sums of cash to pay for additional items to meet the requirements (e.g. engine modifications). I could imagine operators such as Stringers throwing in the towel and calling it a day and just because they're using slighting older equiptment which wouldn't meet another set of invented regulations.

Subsidised routes are increasingly requiring cleaner engines with Bradford City Centre routes needing them too.

The £2 fare is alright in urban areas, its just in rural areas which is causing some damage as there's less people and with less people, less income is generated to retain the service even with subsidy its not going to cover costs (this includes drivers wage and consumables).

No, I'm still not understanding what the problem is - the companies are receiving money to offset the reduced fares. Transdev seem very keen on the fares and are promoting routes heavily (perhaps other companies could learn from this).

Full sized rear adverts promoting the £2 fare and the £4.50 Metro DaySaver would be the way to go, this would include printing it in the timetables, at bus stops and even in the toilets in shopping centres and motorway services and even on advertising hordings.

They all sound to be good ideas - there are adverts at bus stops. Apart from Transdev ones and the Dalesbus leaflet, I've not seen timetables in West Yorkshire since before Covid. I don't think that helps. Companies other than Transdev don't seem to see this as a problem. They put them on their websites. Except when they're wrong. Or unavailable.

Overall I'd rather see more independants running in West Yorkshire.

They seem to struggle with the current system. I can't see it getting any easier under this system.

 

[noddingdonkey]

First were offering a £2.00 flat fare on their app long before either the Mayor or government's initiatives. First then offered a £1.40 evening flat fare on the app.

Fares themselves are not the way to get people out of their cars and onto the bus; the frequency needs to be sufficient that people don't need to plan their lives around the timetable. And maybe a bit of pride in the fleet, like mid-life interior refurbs rather than cascading 15 year old vehicles from Leeds to Huddersfield complete with 15 years worth of grime on the seats.

 

[GusB]

Could we keep the discussion focussed on the partnership proposals, please? It's not a general West Yorkshire bus discussion. Thanks

 

[Deerfold]

This scheme is very reminiscent of First's promise to provide a network of New Routemasters instead of the proposed tram. That never happened and frequencies have dropped significantly on routes that parallel the proposed tram route. It feels like First are willing to make lots of non-legally enforceable promises to avoid franchising. I'm just surprised that Transdev are in partnership with them (not that I'm surprised they don't want franchising).

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The issue with West Yorkshire (and North East) is that no major agreement was reached and that legally binding assurances obtained. I'm a firm believer in saying to operators that if they want to the bus infrastructure, they must be bound to levels of service provision and investment.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The issue with West Yorkshire (and North East) is that no major agreement was reached and that legally binding assurances obtained.

Absolutely.

I’m not convinced you can get these legally binding agreements without franchising though.

After franchising collapsed in the north east we got all sorts of promises about partnership working from the big three operators. It’s fair to say Arriva and GNE haven’t really followed through on anything much. In West Yorkshire I’d expect Arriva and First to be similarly underwhelming.

 

[domcoop7]

Realistically, the only hope of First getting what they want would have been if the judicial review succeeded on the Manchester franchising. Manchester franchising would have still gone ahead, probably, but would have delayed and required further consultation and would have allowed the big bus groups to say in other regions "listen to our proposals, and we'll get something up and running now, otherwise we take it to court, it will cost you hundreds of thousands and add another three years to your plans".

But it didn't - they lost. So any threats of judicial review sound hollow. The other regions have a template process to follow - if they do everything that Greater Manchester did, the court will uphold it.

I should say at this stage, the reason I mention judicial review is that nobody actually thinks any Labour-controlled Combined Authority is ever going to agree to a commercial partnership in priority to Franchising. There's more chance of Bradford getting twinned with Tel Aviv than there is of Tracey Brabin agreeing to that. So without the threat of legal action, First are just p-ing in the wind.

When the original Franchising laws were passed under Labour in the early 2000s, and Tyne and Wear's proposal failed to meet the financial tests, it immediately ended the existing plans for Franchising in Greater Manchester (and presumably other areas, but I don't know enough about anywhere else). They were waiting for a trailblazer. Under the amended rules, Greater Manchester is the trailblazer, and without question every Labour-held Combined Authority will follow suit.

(The fun times come when Sir Keith wins the next election, and there are six or seven Metro Mayors with franchised buses on the way, all of whom see how Greater Manchester got the best part of a billion quid from a Tory government, all of whom are very much to the left of the National Labour party and all of whom will be demanding their £1bn for their bus networks. Which of course I think I can safely predict they aren't going to get, unless some of the cancelled HS2 / NPR money is refunnelled into bus franchising instead of putative rail improvements)

 

[Kaliwax]

I live in an area where Arriva have made massive cuts just outside of Wakefield. 2 years ago we had 4 buses an hour Arriva and Ross Travel each way, Independent stripped back one of the routes to run only to Castleford from Pontefract and withdrew the other and Arriva cut our routes dramtically. We went from 4 buses an hour during the day and a bus every hour in the evening now we have one bus an hour, no evening service and once every 2 hours on a Sunday

A lot of angry people with Arriva where I live, they'll be all for the franchising, they're all disgusted with Arriva. I can't see this enhanced bus partnership being a thing either. I don't know which way or what would be best to solve the issues in West Yorkshire.

 

[Fisherman80]

Out of curiosity,just what powers do the WYCA have because they really don't seem fit for purpose when it comes to bus travel. What enhancements would there really be?
It's great when the mayor is taking credit for the 60 and a few other enhancements but I never see her bringing bus companies to account when they are cutting services and in the case of Bradford hardly any buses from the city centre after 11pm.
What is really frustrating is the lack of accountability for service cuts.

 

[Kaliwax]

Tried to contact everyone when my services got cut, all I got basically was them passing the parcel at each other and blaming each other. Will any accountability be held under this enhanced partnerships or is it false promises, to try and get away from franchising. You could say the same with franchising trying to get people away from the idea of enhanced partnerships.

I can't see Arriva willing to work with other operators or Metro. I think they was massively against Franchising

 

[RT4038]

Out of curiosity,just what powers do the WYCA have because they really don't seem fit for purpose when it comes to bus travel. What enhancements would there really be?
It's great when the mayor is taking credit for the 60 and a few other enhancements but I never see her bringing bus companies to account when they are cutting services and in the case of Bradford hardly any buses from the city centre after 11pm.
What is really frustrating is the lack of accountability for service cuts.

But what kind of 'accountability' are you looking for with service cuts? An enhanced partnership can't force bus companies to run loss making services. Local Authorities can subsidise loss making but socially necessary services, but funds are limited and they have to prioritise, but that will be no different with franchising (possibly even worse....)

 

[Deerfold]

Out of curiosity,just what powers do the WYCA have because they really don't seem fit for purpose when it comes to bus travel. What enhancements would there really be?
It's great when the mayor is taking credit for the 60 and a few other enhancements but I never see her bringing bus companies to account when they are cutting services and in the case of Bradford hardly any buses from the city centre after 11pm.
What is really frustrating is the lack of accountability for service cuts.

The Mayor has no powers to bring bus companies to account. She can talk to them and that's about it. That's largely the argument for having franchising.
WYCA would specify what should run and companies would receive less money and even be fined (in a contractual sense) for not running that service.

 

[J.C.]

Tried to contact everyone when my services got cut, all I got basically was them passing the parcel at each other and blaming each other. Will any accountability be held under this enhanced partnerships or is it false promises, to try and get away from franchising. You could say the same with franchising trying to get people away from the idea of enhanced partnerships.

I can't see Arriva willing to work with other operators or Metro. I think they was massively against Franchising

Exactly the same happened when I complained about First removing the last service on the 521 in north Halifax. It made it not worth complaining, which is basically what they want.

 

[Kaliwax]

Will Franchising or Enhanced Partnerships make a huge difference to areas, which have had frequencies and evening services cut in the last few years?

 

[Fisherman80]

The Mayor has no powers to bring bus companies to account. She can talk to them and that's about it. That's largely the argument for having franchising.
WYCA would specify what should run and companies would receive less money and even be fined (in a contractual sense) for not running that service.

I'm not really educated on how the bus industry works, deerfold. Would it be similar to how they run buses in London, where bus companies bid to run certain routes with strict criteria like service frequency, first/last services of the day and types of buses used?

 

[Deerfold]

I'm not really educated on how the bus industry works, deerfold. Would it be similar to how they run buses in London, where bus companies bid to run certain routes with strict criteria like service frequency, first/last services of the day and types of buses used?

It'll be closer to that than the current system.
Though the awards will be by depot rather than route (often a similar number compared with London bus routes).

I'd hope contacts would work similarly where they're paid per mile run with bonuses for preventing bunching and running a very high percentage of contracted mileage and penalties for large amounts of missing mileage and poor service control.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Oct 2023 ==

I can't see Arriva willing to work with other operators or Metro. I think they was massively against Franchising

Arrive can choose to bid for a franchise (or more) or stop operating in that area.

They chose not to bid in Manchester, but they only had a small presence there.

We'll see if they bid for Merseyside.

 

[Kaliwax]

If the Yorkshire ones go ahead, I wonder if Go Ahead or Stagecoach would make a bid.

 

[Steve440]

If the Yorkshire ones go ahead, I wonder if Go Ahead or Stagecoach would make a bid.

Why wouldn't they? Of course they will.

 

[Kaliwax]

Why wouldn't they. Of course they will.

Arriva didn't bother in Manchester did they

 

[RT4038]

Arriva didn't bother in Manchester did they

But I think that was due to an investment embargo by the owners (who were seeking sale and had no desire/ability to invest) at the time. Ownership has now changed, so this difficulty may no longer apply.

 

[Deerfold]

But I think that was due to an investment embargo by the owners (who were seeking sale and had no desire/ability to invest) at the time. Ownership has now changed, so this difficulty may no longer apply.

Ownership is due to change next April if there's no regulatory problems.

 

[WAB]

Lots of posters on First buses in Leeds at the moment, trumpeting an Enhanced Partnership over franchising.

 

[Leeds1970]

Lots of posters on First buses in Leeds at the moment, trumpeting an Enhanced Partnership over franchising.

They can't run the current enhanced service the mayor has provided additional funds for. In south Leeds on Belle Isle Road, for example, there is supposed to be a bus roughly every 8 mins between 7am and 7pm but i can stand at the stop for anything between 10 and 45 minutes, especially in the mornings as the buses are out on school contracts which means First is effectively getting a double handout for some buses.

 

[noddingdonkey]

The posters are in Huddersfield too. The big problem with the enhanced partnership proposal is the lack of accountability, at least if the Mayor is in charge they are answerable to the ballot box.

 

[RT4038]

The posters are in Huddersfield too. The big problem with the enhanced partnership proposal is the lack of accountability, at least if the Mayor is in charge they are answerable to the ballot box.

It'll all come down to funding - reliability and service enhancements cost money. No doubt they will be looking very closely at the Manchester franchising for guidance as to which way to go.

 

[markymark2000]

The posters are in Huddersfield too. The big problem with the enhanced partnership proposal is the lack of accountability, at least if the Mayor is in charge they are answerable to the ballot box.

There is no accountability though at the ballot box, especially in 'red wall' areas. Go and look at TFL and look at Manchester, there is zero accountability. Especially Manchester, the amount of broken promises there is amazing yet people still worship the ground that the mayor walks on because they are too busy fanboy/girl/theying to open their eyes and see what is going on. It's all about scoring political points. I won't go into too much detail but look at what has been delivered with franchising in Manchester and look at the broken promises and no one is calling out Andy Burnham for the reliability and lies.

 

[Deerfold]

There is no accountability though at the ballot box, especially in 'red wall' areas. Go and look at TFL and look at Manchester, there is zero accountability. Especially Manchester, the amount of broken promises there is amazing yet people still worship the ground that the mayor walks on because they are too busy fanboy/girl/theying to open their eyes and see what is going on. It's all about scoring political points. I won't go into too much detail but look at what has been delivered with franchising in Manchester and look at the broken promises and no one is calling out Andy Burnham for the reliability and lies.

Franchising has barely started in Manchester with most of the area still to start.
What promises have been broken?

 

[markymark2000]

Franchising has barely started in Manchester with most of the area still to start.
What promises have been broken?

It was originally stated that tap on tap off would be from day 1. I can't find the quote right now but I will try and find it. Tap on isn't happening until 2025 (which is funny considering that it's something which is in a lot of other areas and operators have delivered it). They also promised better live information for passengers and that hasn't been delivered. In fact, the app is full of ghost buses so it tells people a bus is coming but it doesn't exist, it's just placing a bus where it thinks it should be.

Mr Burnham said through the Bee Network app, real-time information on buses would be offered.

A new era begins for Greater Manchester's buses - with you in the driving seat

"In the old world that we are leaving behind, if you are standing at a bus stop and your bus doesn't turn up or is late, there's just nothing you can do because the private operators have had the run of the road. They have been able to suit themselves. In this new system, the buses have to work...

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

The rest of the things are just failures of the system rather than broken promises (reduced service on Vantage V1 in the evening so they could move the resource elsewhere, ticket machines that hardly work. Reliability couldn't be much worse. There's now a shed load of agency drivers who in many cases don't know much other than the very specific route they are shown and so they can't help customer as much with general enquiries and it's harder for diversions as they don't know the area. The new buses were riddled with issues like the next stop information not working).