Sunday trading laws discussion

[davews]

When our Tesco was built, 1987, there was a planning restriction forced on them by the local residents that it couldn't open on Sundays. Didn't inconvenience me and the store was often used on Sundays for filming the Tesco ads (which probably caused more disruption than if it was open normally...). When the 25 year term of the restriction expired they promptly opened the shop on Sundays - think it happened literally the Sunday after the expiration!

Being a church person born and bred I don't normally use the shop on Sundays anyway but have occasionally popped in if I was short of something. Horrible experience, packed out. I do though pop over with my glass recycling after 4pm on Sunday - the recycling bins are at the far end of the car park and you can't normally get there without being knocked down by cars! That opportunity would go away if they extended the hours.

Yes if folks want to shop on Sundays fine, but I prefer not to.

 

[Silver Cobra]

Are USDAW still as much a union with strength in the retail sector as they used to (Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers) and is anyone with membership of that union aware of the view held by union executive concerning any proposed Sunday trading hours extension that would affect their members.

I'm a member of the GMB myself, but my brother was a member of USDAW for a while. I remember the last time I looked into the subject a few years ago, USDAW still had a whole section of their website dedicated to their campaign to 'Keep Sunday Special'. In comparison, the GMB don't seem to have an actual stance on the matter.

 

[Iskra]

Supermarkets in England & Wales typically open for around 90-100 hours a week so there's plenty of opportunity to purchase supplies.

Unless you work shifts, which I’m sure many on this forum do.

Of course, various supermarkets will happily deliver my groceries to me until past 10pm on a Sunday evening, rendering Sunday Trading Laws irrelevant.

Historically in Christian countries, Sundays were a Sabbath Day. There were reported incidents in Scotland when the landing of fish from trawlers on Sundays was forbidden.

The Sabbath day in both Jewish and Muslim faiths is not a Sunday. The Torah in a modern term of speech states "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. Six days you shall labour and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God".

The religious argument is increasingly irrelevant to the majority of the population.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The religious argument is increasingly irrelevant to the majority of the population.

Of the "supposedly Christian" in name only part of the population. You would be amazed to see the numbers who turn up for Friday prayers at the local mosques, to whom Sunday ia indeed just another day of the week.

 

[Hadders]

Are USDAW still as much a union with strength in the retail sector as they used to (Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers) and is anyone with membership of that union aware of the view held by union executive concerning any proposed Sunday trading hours extension that would affect their members.

I've not had direct dealings with Usdaw for a few years but last time I did they were one of the only unions still growing their membership. Historically they're against extended Sunday Trading and I doubt this stance will change.

 

[spyinthesky]

Supermarkets are like airports where people turn into super-powered zombies.
Spreading or extending opening hours won’t change that.

 

[317 forever]

I wonder if those staunch believers of "never working on Sundays" in their own field of employment show the same belief when it comes to other workers who do work on Sundays, such as never shopping in large supermarkets on Sundays?

It is interesting you say that.

I was not pleased to fall into work that did mean working occasional Sundays. However, I came to terms with it as I do sometimes use amenities like shops or the launderette on a Sunday.

As an aside, I think shops should standardise their Bank Holiday opening hours to match Sundays. This would be easier for the public to remember (especially compared to shops having "unique" opening hours on Bank Holidays), enable their hours to align with bus timetables (usually a normal Sunday service), and give staff who work Bank Holidays a corresponding shorter working day compared to Monday-Saturday.

 

[zero]

If you don't want to shop on Sundays you don't have to.

As a compromise, I would suggest that it be a requirement to pay staff a supplement for working on Sundays.

 

[Hadders]

I would suggest that it be a requirement to pay staff a supplement for working on Sundays.

That's an interesting one! When I first started working in retail Sunday was paid at double time. We had a situation where someone working one day a week 'Saturday job' was paid single time, but another member of staff that worked Sundays only got paid double. This clearly was unfair.

A better way would be to make sure that hours in excess of a set number of hours each week (eg 39) are paid at a premium rate. That way all staff are treated the same.

 

[renegademaster]

I like the idea of everyone having the same day off, retail workers should be able to meetup with family and friends at convenient times too.

I'm not Christian but Sunday is the most logical day to have that day off because it's the established day off and nearly all white collar workers already have it off.

However I'm an enormous hypocrite because I find myself constantly shopping on Sundays, even though I work and Monday to Friday job and could go on Saturday too.

 

[Hadders]

How could everyone have the same day off?

If we did how could people meet up without transport, meaning people would need to work….

 

[renegademaster]

How could everyone have the same day off?

If we did how could people meet up without transport, meaning people would need to work….

you shouldn't make perfect the enemy of good.
Ideally in the scenario with the workers who have to work Sunday, the employer should alternate who gets the Sunday shift

 

[ChrisC]

How could everyone have the same day off?

If we did how could people meet up without transport, meaning people would need to work….

I certainly don’t have an answer to this question but just a few thoughts from my memories of the past.

Going back 50+ years to when I was a child in the 1960‘s very few shops and very little else was open on a Sunday. People did then meet up at a time when people were more reliant on public transport as not so many owned cars in those days. These days, outside of large cities and other highly populated areas, there are very few buses on Sundays. Many routes even serving quite large market towns and villages now have no Sunday service. There used to be buses on Sundays on most of these routes even though they didn’t begin running until late morning. Now most shops and entertainment venues are open on Sunday but many areas have no buses to get to them.

 

[gordonthemoron]

I’d rather they didn’t open at all on Sundays.
One thing that the Germans do very well.

There are plenty of shops open on Sunday in Germany, they’re in railway stations and airports

 

[renegademaster]

There are plenty of shops open on Sunday in Germany, they’re in railway stations and airports

A lot less than here, if you go south to Austria their interpretation of Sunday trading rules are even stricter and you'll be lucky even during the week to find a supermarket open beyond 6

 

[Gemz91]

Close shops on Sundays to encourage people to spend more time with families, socialising or participating in hobbies. I know people would in theory would still work in restaurants and cafes though.

Encourage high street retailers to remain open during the week till 8pm to encourage more people shopping after work and potentially bring some sort of life back to the high street. My local high street is dead after 5pm during the week. It would allow people more time to spend with their families at weekends, but opening later during the week would see the total amount of time shops are opened extended by 9 hours.

I try not to use shops on Sundays. Always strikes me when I do that I’m taking someone away from spending time with their families at a weekend just so I can buy some bread for my sandwiches.

Obviously this is never going to happen, and if shops are open till 8pm during the week it would take away families spending time with each other during the week.

 

[ChrisC]

I very occasionally call in at a small convenience store to buy a few essential items like milk but other than that I don’t use shops on Sundays. I’m not seriously against Sunday trading but going shopping on Sunday is something I’ve never considered doing. I don’t think I‘ve ever been in a large superstore, retail park or shopping centre on a Sunday and I have never been into a city centre for the purpose of shopping on a Sunday. I prefer to use Sundays for walking, gardening, visiting countryside or historical locations etc. If it’s really wet miserable weather I stay at home and do things around the house or even have a relaxing day reading. If I can’t get my shopping done by Saturday it can wait until Monday. I certainly don’t see wandering around city centre shops on a Sunday as a leisure activity.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Shops should stick to the six hours, but the earliest open at 08:00 (closing at 14:00) and the latest open at 14:00 (closing at 20:00) with a few open from 11:00 until 17:00. In other words, keep the opening times but extend the opening sphere.

In that way, most people will have easy access to a large store for 12 hours of the day rather than 8. Single people with their own vehicle especially might want to go shopping early on before doing their Sunday tasks, or do their Sunday tasks then go shopping late on.

 

[lachlan]

Close shops on Sundays to encourage people to spend more time with families, socialising or participating in hobbies. I know people would in theory would still work in restaurants and cafes though.

Encourage high street retailers to remain open during the week till 8pm to encourage more people shopping after work and potentially bring some sort of life back to the high street. My local high street is dead after 5pm during the week. It would allow people more time to spend with their families at weekends, but opening later during the week would see the total amount of time shops are opened extended by 9 hours.

I try not to use shops on Sundays. Always strikes me when I do that I’m taking someone away from spending time with their families at a weekend just so I can buy some bread for my sandwiches.

Obviously this is never going to happen, and if shops are open till 8pm during the week it would take away families spending time with each other during the week.

I used to work as a waiter and weekends were our busiest time. Should the restaurant have shut so I could spend the weekend with my family?

In reality we had school children and students working who couldn't do so during the week.

 

[Gemz91]

I used to work as a waiter and weekends were our busiest time. Should the restaurant have shut so I could spend the weekend with my family?

In reality we had school children and students working who couldn't do so during the week.

That’s the downfall in my plan, that it would still involve people working in restaurants and cafes so families could enjoy a meal out together on a Sunday. Maybe they would have to employ people who don’t have families or don’t like their families for my plan to work?

 

[Jamesrob637]

That’s the downfall in my plan, that it would still involve people working in restaurants and cafes so families could enjoy a meal out together on a Sunday. Maybe they would have to employ people who don’t have families or don’t like their families for my plan to work?

Many people hang out more with their colleagues and see them as family, than lots of their blood family!

 

[greatkingrat]

Shops should stick to the six hours, but the earliest open at 08:00 (closing at 14:00) and the latest open at 14:00 (closing at 20:00) with a few open from 11:00 until 17:00. In other words, keep the opening times but extend the opening sphere.

In that way, most people will have easy access to a large store for 12 hours of the day rather than 8. Single people with their own vehicle especially might want to go shopping early on before doing their Sunday tasks, or do their Sunday tasks then go shopping late on.

Are you planning on telling shops what hours they have to open? No shop will voluntarily choose to open 0800-1400, because there will be very few customers for the first couple of hours.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Are you planning on telling shops what hours they have to open? No shop will voluntarily choose to open 0800-1400, because there will be very few customers for the first couple of hours.

Also, just how would (shop) staff be expected to get there ahead of opening up at 0800 on a Sunday? Outwith the London area, there's not too many locations that have any train arrivals much before 0900 on a Sunday, and it's similar if using other modes of public transport.

 

[birchesgreen]

Also, just how would (shop) staff be expected to get there ahead of opening up at 0800 on a Sunday? Outwith the London area, there's not too many locations that have any train arrivals much before 0900 on a Sunday, and it's similar if using other modes of public transport.

Yeah its bad enough already with opening at 10am, a lot of staff have to be there beforehand forex bakery staff. I have to drive my wife to work on sundays and get up at 6am. This of course has not coloured my negative opinion on sunday trading.

 

[ValentaFan1974]

Sundays are just a normal day of the week as far as I’m concerned. I’ve never had a job which didn’t have Sundays rostered so I’m used to it. I’d welcome complete deregulation but with a protection if someone wants to opt out. Let the market forces decide.

 

[Busaholic]

That’s the downfall in my plan, that it would still involve people working in restaurants and cafes so families could enjoy a meal out together on a Sunday. Maybe they would have to employ people who don’t have families or don’t like their families for my plan to work?

That reminds me of the Chinese restaurant and takeaway trade in London in the 1970s. As part of my job with Camden Council I had helped a Chinese restaurant worker near Russell Square with his family's housing problems and he was so grateful he insisted I should join him for Sunday lunch in Leicester Square at the largest such restaurant in Europe. I had often wondered why hardly any of these establishments ever opened at Sunday lunchtimes, and I discovered why when I joined him on the first floor at 1 p.m. on the appointed day. Every seat was occupied by chefs, waiters and managers, except two on a centre table to which we were directed with everyone else's eyes on us. There we ate a selection of what I am sure was very fine food, but having to try and eat it with chopsticks for the first time with everyone's eyes on me I have to admit was challenging. Then everyone there toasted me and I really felt the impostor! Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that the collective decision of the Chinese restaurant community to eschew Sunday lunchtime opening was so that many of them could join together in this huge place. I don't remember many women or children, but a 'family'gathering occasion it most certainly was.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Are you planning on telling shops what hours they have to open? No shop will voluntarily choose to open 0800-1400, because there will be very few customers for the first couple of hours.

Well, if not 8am to 8pm, because of transport issues early in the morning especially outside of the London area, then 10am to 10pm. Transportation runs fairly late on a Sunday evening. I was only suggesting 8am to 2pm if the owners had evening church commitments or the like.

 

[jon81uk]

Shops should stick to the six hours, but the earliest open at 08:00 (closing at 14:00) and the latest open at 14:00 (closing at 20:00) with a few open from 11:00 until 17:00. In other words, keep the opening times but extend the opening sphere.

In that way, most people will have easy access to a large store for 12 hours of the day rather than 8. Single people with their own vehicle especially might want to go shopping early on before doing their Sunday tasks, or do their Sunday tasks then go shopping late on.

I doubt anywhere would bother opening before 10am that isn't already allowed to, most people have a lie-in on a Sunday and aren't out and about as early, many stores wouldn't see it as worthwhile paying the staff time on the Sunday early morning.
Allowing stores to open past 6pm will be popular in some areas, such as London west end. But generally small town retail closes at 5.30 or 6pm most days anyway. Allowing eight hours of opening anytime from 10am to 8pm might prove popular, but I expect many stores will keep the shorter hours as it can be staffed with one shift.

 

[danm14]

If you don't want to shop on Sundays you don't have to.

As a compromise, I would suggest that it be a requirement to pay staff a supplement for working on Sundays.

This is the situation in Ireland.

There are no restrictions on Sunday trading, but employees (in all sectors, not just retail) are legally entitled to a "reasonable" benefit for working on Sundays.

This can take the form of an additional payment for each Sunday worked, an increase in overall pay rate to account for Sundays worked, additional annual leave, or a combination thereof. A benefit in kind, such as providing employees with free meals on Sundays, cannot be substituted.

 

[cb a1]

And I take it that the world hasn’t ended north of the border?

I don't believe it has. Does feel kind of odd reading through this thread when to the best of my knowledge I've never met anyone in Scotland who wants to change that a supermarket can open 24/7. Even the Christian Right fringes like the Scottish Family Party aren't campaigning to change it.