Poppies removed from Hale Station - because they could confuse train drivers

[Mcr Warrior]

Any truth in the rumour that Network Rail intend to shoot any Robins landing on NR property?

Nah. Have you just asked this using ChatGPT?

 

[ExRes]

Nah. Have you just asked this using ChatGPT?

Isn't AI what Robins leave behind?

 

[43066]

Absolutely, it's all hairdressers, actuaries, artisan bakers, and particle physicists these days isn't it?

Sadly, judging by what our customer hosts serve up, there are few artisan bakers working where I am!

For the station illustrated here they could have been turned 90 degrees to face the opposite platform. But no, they had to be ripped down and a huge "Nanny Knows Best" press release written and sent out to all who might print it.

As a fellow PPL you wouldn’t expect airport runway signs, or taxiway markings to be obscured by poppies, would you? It’s no different here. Turning them ninety degrees may or may not help, but just adds to the general platform detritus/clutter, of which there is already too much.

The platform is an operational environment. By all means display the poppies, but do it in the waiting room.

 

[JGurney]

I've seen cyclists reminded to not turn their lights on until they've left the station, which makes a lot of sense. Putting reminder stickers in bike areas on the trains themselves would perhaps be sensible I think.

While I have never been asked to take off flourescent cycling clothing while around stations, I started doing so after a couple of occasions when I was approached by other passengers who thought I was a railway staff member because of it. One started shouting at me about a delayed train and took no notice when I told him I didn't work for the railway.

 

[Vespa]

I drove and saw poppies on the roadside on lamposts I wasn't confused.

 

[driverd]

Sounds like usual (present day) H&S BS. If a driver confused those with a signal, then I would call in to question the TOC's driver selection and training processes. Is it not time we (as a country) took back control of what is a genuine risk, and what is not....sorry, a tad grumpy today, but my point stands.

And in the extremely unlikely circumstance a driver did mistake it for red, that's the safest aspect you can assume and won't cause any danger. I can literally not think of any time that thinking that is a red signal would compromise safety.

Just to share my experience back when I was a guard - VTEC as it was at the time saw it fit to attach large white plates to the pillars at stations displaying carriage letters in red circles. This was for customers to locate their carriage.

At a given station, these aligned perfectly with the red at the end of the platform. I came incredibly close to dispatching the train against the red, as the signal aspect fell perfectly in line with the red circles. It was very similar to the scenario at Hale.

I like to think of myself as a decent rail employee - in 12 years I've never had a safety of line incident as either a driver or before that, a guard, but I think this is the closest I've come. It's not a case of H&S gone mad, it's a genuine risk that can easily catch you out.

 

[AlterEgo]

What is the point of putting them all on the pillars like that?

There isn’t really a point and almost anywhere would be better, safer and less tacky. Remembrance didn’t used to be like this; it was more low key and solemn even 20 years ago.

 

[PeterC]

There isn’t really a point and almost anywhere would be better, safer and less tacky. Remembrance didn’t used to be like this; it was more low key and solemn even 20 years ago.

It seems to be in inverse proportion to the percentage of the population who actually served.

 

[emsworth]

I drove and saw poppies on the roadside on lamposts I wasn't confused.

Although I respect your viewpoint, it's crucial to take into account the different settings in which roadside poppies and those at a train station occur. Northern Rail's removal of the poppies seems to be a preventative step to guarantee the highest level of safety for the passengers and train crew. For trains to operate safely, railway signals are essential, and any chance of confusion, no matter how little, has to be minimised. In this particular scenario, roadside poppies may not be a major source of distraction for motorists, but train drivers operating in the distinct and strictly regulated environment of a railway station cannot be expected to feel the same way.

 

[8A Rail]

Perhaps had the poppies been bolted to the pillars at 90 degrees to the line of route, then maybe the drivers would not have seen them ?

That what should of been done when putting them up in the first place. Interesting was the other platform also done the same way with the poppies facing the approaching train?

 

[CardiffKid]

Operational concerns aside, this practice of putting a poppy on every available surface (railway-related or otherwise) is needlessly garish.

Then again, this is the UK where we're known for that sorta thing.

Seconded.

 

[Driver068]

Load of rubbish, firstly a driver (You would think) would know from their route knowledge if there was a red signal on that platform edge or even in its facinity.
Secondly, the ECML must be riddled with Emergancy brake applications and drivers being confused with what they deem as a red given LNER station staff wear red coats.

Also on the comment that driver maybe confused by a hand lamp or red flag...poppies dont glow in the dark lol

 

[Trackman]

Just to share my experience back when I was a guard - VTEC as it was at the time saw it fit to attach large white plates to the pillars at stations displaying carriage letters in red circles. This was for customers to locate their carriage.

At a given station, these aligned perfectly with the red at the end of the platform. I came incredibly close to dispatching the train against the red, as the signal aspect fell perfectly in line with the red circles. It was very similar to the scenario at Hale.

I like to think of myself as a decent rail employee - in 12 years I've never had a safety of line incident as either a driver or before that, a guard, but I think this is the closest I've come. It's not a case of H&S gone mad, it's a genuine risk that can easily catch you out.

I assume the back-up for that is that the driver would see the red aspect and have the DRA on, so you couldn't dispatch anyway.,, well try.

Load of rubbish, firstly a driver (You would think) would know from their route knowledge if there was a red signal on that platform edge or even in its facinity.
Secondly, the ECML must be riddled with Emergancy brake applications and drivers being confused with what they deem as a red given LNER station staff wear red coats.

Also on the comment that driver maybe confused by a hand lamp or red flag...poppies dont glow in the dark lol

I was thinking route knowledge too.

 

[Vespa]

Although I respect your viewpoint, it's crucial to take into account the different settings in which roadside poppies and those at a train station occur. Northern Rail's removal of the poppies seems to be a preventative step to guarantee the highest level of safety for the passengers and train crew. For trains to operate safely, railway signals are essential, and any chance of confusion, no matter how little, has to be minimised. In this particular scenario, roadside poppies may not be a major source of distraction for motorists, but train drivers operating in the distinct and strictly regulated environment of a railway station cannot be expected to feel the same way.

Drivers with route knowledge should know where the signals are positioned.

 

[357]

Lots of people commenting in this thread who aren't drivers.

 

[driverd]

I assume the back-up for that is that the driver would see the red aspect and have the DRA on, so you couldn't dispatch anyway.,, well try.

If I had dispatched against a red, in theory yes. It still happens, however, where a driver will depart after the guard has dispatched against a red.

I was thinking route knowledge too.

But, as with my example - as a guard, route knowledge tells me there is a signal at the end of the platform. On that day and for whatever reason, I very nearly missed the signal as it blended into the red circles attached to the station pillars. Luckily I remembered the existence of the signal before dispatching but came very close to starting the procedure - too close for comfort. It's easily done - red circular blobs roughly in line with a signal just aren't a good idea.

For all those quoting route knowledge, I'd also add that drivers know roughly where a signal is. We don't know it to the nearest inch from the platform edge or how many sleepers beyond the magnet it is. Adding in things that look similar to a red is just problematic - think about heavy rain or fog conditions - if a driver spots an unexpected red circle in roughly the location of a signal, it could result in an unnecessary brake application etc.

 

[Killingworth]

It seems volunteers at an unnamed station may have been reported as contravening two conditions they're expected to observe. A message went out on the 8th November 2021 reminding;
"Please:
No working at height under any circumstances, link with your SM and he/she will support you to put things up
No poppy displays on the end of platforms or in the eye line of approaching drivers, safety of the customers and our communities is our number one priority."

And a further reminder went out on 30th October this year "Large red items must not be placed where they are in the sight line of the driver of an approaching train or staff carrying out dispatch"

Volunteers are expected to work within strict guidelines for health and safety reasons. Climbing ladders is prohibited. If the guidelines are not followed their authority to operate on the station can be withdrawn.

 

[Dieseldriver]

Lots of people commenting in this thread who aren't drivers.

Shh, they’re the experts

 

[eman_resu]

Shh, they’re the experts

Yes they are.... Interesting to see how they (being non-drivers) would react when driving an express through a station and seeing flashes of red in their peripheral vision......

 

[Krokodil]

Curiously the colour red has featured in rolling stock liveries as much as any other. Two different shades of it took BR from nationalisation into the 1960s. London Underground kept it for the longest time.

Until the adoption of yellow, it was the bufferbeam warning colour for all locomotives and units.

 

[The exile]

Until the adoption of yellow, it was the bufferbeam warning colour for all locomotives and units.

Performing a function permanently equivalent to rail lamps, presumably.

 

[northwichcat]

I assume one danger is a driver thinking 'oh it's just the poppys I can see' and then have a SPAR at the signal just ahead (showing YY in the photo)

Complacency is dangerous. Confusion is dangerous.

All passenger trains stop at Hale, so presumably the guard is under instruction to not dispatch a train if that signal shows red. If I'm not mistaken the RMT make a deal about a manager (acting as a guard on a strike day) being a danger to passenger safety for giving the driver a signal to depart when there was a red signal ahead?

However, there are freight trains using the route as well.

Perhaps had the poppies been bolted to the pillars at 90 degrees to the line of route, then maybe the drivers would not have seen them ?

My guess is the position is based on the village wanting to show people passing through that they are making an effort. In December you can get a clear view of the Christmas lights from the level crossing and it's normal to see them turned on at around 7am. I find it unusual for Christmas lights to be on at times when shops, pubs and restaurants aren't open.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Was the pic (posted upthread) of Hale station on the Manchester bound platform? Be right in saying that there's a slight right hand curve on the approach to the station in that direction, so a driver would only see the bright red (of the poppy decals) at the last moment?

Almost all passenger trains call there so will be slowing down on the approach to Hale station, but this is unlikely to be the case with freight workings.

 

[Krokodil]

All passenger trains stop at Hale, so presumably the guard is under instruction to not dispatch a train if that signal shows red. If I'm not mistaken the RMT make a deal about a manager (acting as a guard on a strike day) being a danger to passenger safety for giving the driver a signal to depart when there was a red signal ahead?

On this railway we prefer to have as many slices of Swiss cheese as possible. Belt and braces.

 

[dk1]

On this railway we prefer to have as many slices of Swiss cheese as possible. Belt and braces.

What else would they put on the power point presentation if it wasn’t for the bloody cheese scenario?

 

[Killingworth]

Presumably the offending poppies were put up by a station adoption group or similar rather than by Northern as station managers.

Before being allowed to work on stations such groups have to accept training which includes among other things specifically not using ladders or hosepipes. Moveable items must be secured. As time goes by a degree of oversight can occur as enthusiasm may carry folks away. Leaving aside sightlines those Hale poppies are certainly above my reach and unless they were authorised by Northern must be very conspicuously outside the volunteers' brief. I'd assume if Northern had approved them ISS would have had to put them up.

Come to that I have a feeling Northern employees aren't supposed to work above a certain height either as that becomes Network Rails' fiefdom?

 

[dk1]

Presumably the offending poppies were put up by a station adoption group or similar rather than by Northern as station managers.

Before being allowed to work on stations such groups have to accept training which includes among other things specifically not using ladders or hosepipes. Moveable items must be secured. As time goes by a degree of oversight can occur as enthusiasm may carry folks away. Leaving aside sightlines those Hale poppies are certainly above my reach and unless they were authorised by Northern must be very conspicuously outside the volunteers' brief. I'd assume if Northern had approved them ISS would have had to put them up.

During the Kings Coronation some local station adopters caused a storm by stringing bunting up. Obviously using step ladders and they were told never to do it again and not attempt to remove them as the professionals then had to come in to sort things out.

 

[northwichcat]

During the Kings Coronation some local station adopters caused a storm by stringing bunting up. Obviously using step ladders and they were told never to do it again and not attempt to remove them as the professionals then had to come in to sort things out.

I wouldn't be surprised if they were doing what had been done for Queen Elizabeth II's Coronation, only to find Network Rail don't now permit what BR allowed.

 

[dk1]

I wouldn't be surprised if they were doing what had been done for Queen Elizabeth II's Coronation, only to find Network Rail don't now permit what BR allowed.

Yes, times have changed dramatically from those make do & mend days.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Nov 2023 ==

Everything has to be checked & risk assessed.

 

[Greybeard33]

Was the pic (posted upthread) of Hale station on the Manchester bound platform? Be right in saying that there's a slight right hand curve on the approach to the station in that direction, so a driver would only see the bright red (of the poppy decals) at the last moment?

Almost all passenger trains call there so will be slowing down on the approach to Hale station, but this is unlikely to be the case with freight workings.

Correct. The signal beyond the end of the platform (seen against the background of the bridge in the pic) most often shows a double yellow aspect when a train is approaching, because the next but one signal protects the Navigation Road level crossing and is normally at danger. Because of the length of the Absolute Block sections further back, it is highly unusual for two northbound trains to approach Hale in quick succession. The driver of a northbound freight would normally have received a green aspect at the preceding signal and so would approach the station at line speed.