Poppies removed from Hale Station - because they could confuse train drivers

[Trackman]

What on earth is going on here?
Could drivers confuse a red poppy a signal aspect?

Poppies removed from Hale Station - because they could confuse train drivers

Large poppies have in recent years been mounted on pillars at Hale Station as part of the village's Hale Remembers period of commemoration.

altrincham.todaynews.co.uk

A number of commemorative poppies have been removed from Hale Station - as they were deemed to potentially confuse train drivers.
Large poppies have in recent years been mounted on pillars at Hale Station as part of the village's Hale Remembers period of commemoration in the lead-up to Remembrance Sunday.
But Denise Laver, from Hale Civic Society, said the poppies were removed yesterday by ISS cleaning services, a contractor working for Northern Rail.
A spokesperson for Northern Rail has now told Altrincham Today that the poppies were removed because they could be "confused for a signal".
They said: "We welcome the display of poppies at our stations but these should not be in the driver’s line of sight where they may be confused for a signal and compromise both customer and railway staff safety.
"In October, we wrote to station adoption groups and other volunteer organisations connected to our estate about this issue.
"Poppies displayed in unsafe locations are therefore removed for safe keeping and returned to the appropriate adoption or volunteer group on the condition that they are displayed in a more suitable location at the station."

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Maybe just don’t put big red circular objects on the platform without consulting the operational side of the railway?

 

[Big Jumby 74]

What on earth is going on here?

Sounds like usual (present day) H&S BS. If a driver confused those with a signal, then I would call in to question the TOC's driver selection and training processes. Is it not time we (as a country) took back control of what is a genuine risk, and what is not....sorry, a tad grumpy today, but my point stands.

 

[richa2002]

And in the extremely unlikely circumstance a driver did mistake it for red, that's the safest aspect you can assume and won't cause any danger. I can literally not think of any time that thinking that is a red signal would compromise safety.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Same thing happened at Surbiton a few years ago

Poppies removed from Surbiton station platforms to avoid train drivers "confusion with red signals" | Surbiton.com

surbiton.com

Poppies removed from train platforms in case drivers get confused

Commuters were delighted to see the ceremonial flowers appear on pillars at Surbiton station this week, ahead of Remembrance Sunday and Armistice Day.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[sprite]

I assume one danger is a driver thinking 'oh it's just the poppys I can see' and then have a SPAR at the signal just ahead (showing YY in the photo)

Complacency is dangerous. Confusion is dangerous.

 

[AdamWW]

I assume one danger is a driver thinking 'oh it's just the poppys I can see' and then have a SPAR at the signal just ahead (showing YY in the photo)

Complacency is dangerous. Confusion is dangerous.

I seem to recall that some drivers weren't impressed with the large quantities of red paint used in stations when the Network South East colour scheme came in.

 

[43066]

Might well obscure stop car marks/turn back marks etc., plus a general distraction risk. Whoever put them up should have checked first (and had more sense).

 

[Wyrleybart]

Perhaps had the poppies been bolted to the pillars at 90 degrees to the line of route, then maybe the drivers would not have seen them ?

 

[Cach17]

Operational concerns aside, this practice of putting a poppy on every available surface (railway-related or otherwise) is needlessly garish.

Then again, this is the UK where we're known for that sorta thing.

 

[bluenoxid]

Wasn’t Eccles (1984) felt to have been contributed to by the colour of buildings behind signals.

 

[D Williams]

Any railwayman will tell you that "red" means "stop". Unfortunately there are few railwaymen(persons) working on todays railway,

 

[Gemz91]

Sounds like usual (present day) H&S BS. If a driver confused those with a signal, then I would call in to question the TOC's driver selection and training processes. Is it not time we (as a country) took back control of what is a genuine risk, and what is not....sorry, a tad grumpy today, but my point stands.

Doesn’t necessary have to be a signal though. Could be mistaken for a red hand lamp or red flag. Then in turn if someone is displaying a red flag or lamp a driver may think “oh it’s just the poppies” and ignore it. The likelihood of it happening is slim but it’s always a chance.

I’ve come around a corner before and at first glance thought a red poppy is a signal, despite a signal not being there and it being on the opposite side of the track before realising what it is.

There’s plenty more places a poppy can be displayed, there’s no need to display them where they may interfere with the running of trains.

Clearly my Tocs selection process and training needs to be questioned

 

[TurboMan]

Any railwayman will tell you that "red" means "stop". Unfortunately there are few railwaymen(persons) working on todays railway,

Absolutely, it's all hairdressers, actuaries, artisan bakers, and particle physicists these days isn't it?

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Back in the day before hi-vis, non-uniformed staff were instructed not to wear red or green jumpers near the running lines, in case of confusion.

 

[Llanigraham]

Back in the day before hi-vis, non-uniformed staff were instructed not to wear red or green jumpers near the running lines, in case of confusion.

Not even that long ago.
When I started as a signaller 15 years ago we were told that.

 

[Killingworth]

Northern's guidance to station adoption groups includes not erecting anything that could potentially obstruct or confuse sight lines to signalling. That includes Christmas lights and reminders about that are usually sent round about this time of year. Ornamental shrubs can grow happily for years but are subject to the same rules. if a SPAD occurs, or is reported as possible, and the shrubs are cited as a contributory factor they too will very quickly be removed. Vegetation all around the railway is rampant and small ornamental plants on platforms can also get out of hand.

The ready availability of these big poppies and cheap Christmas lights encourage volunteers to splash out. However the case highlighted here was probably compounded by orientating them all to face towards oncoming trains rather than being parallel with the tracks and possibly facing inwards.

 

[Elecman]

Wasn’t Eccles (1984) felt to have been contributed to by the colour of buildings behind signals.

No it was due to the lack of a white sighting board behind the semaphore

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Doesn’t necessary have to be a signal though. Could be mistaken for a red hand lamp or red flag

No offence intended my friend. As someone eluded to up thread, a better position would be to have those poppies (in the pic) bolted on so that they are edge-on to approaching trains, which makes better sense all round - intending passengers, and those sitting on a train stopped at the platform, will then have a better view of them, and drivers wouldn't see 'red'.

 

[dk1]

We’ve had similar on Bittern Line stations for many years now each with a name on them of a local fallen soldier. As a driver I can’t say I’ve ever thought anything more than how beautiful and meaningful they look.

This story reminds me of the NSE red lamppost debacle in the 1980s.

 

[JKF]

Back in the day before hi-vis, non-uniformed staff were instructed not to wear red or green jumpers near the running lines, in case of confusion.

I was told that on my PTS/sentinel course about ten years ago, makes perfect sense.

They also grumbled that orange hi-vis was for a long time almost unique to the railways, with everyone else using yellow, so would be easy for a driver to spot and react to. More recently it has been widely available, used by road workers, postmen etc., so would trigger a state of alert unnecessarily. Shame this couldn’t have been regulated.

 

[alxndr]

I was told that on my PTS/sentinel course about ten years ago, makes perfect sense.

I was also told this about 10 years ago. Not sure if more recent people still get told this (probably depends on the trainer) as I've had to warn a few new starters they'd better find something else to wear. Even when I was out walking with a friend and they wanted to watch a train pass a public foot crossing I suggested they put a jacket over their bright red t-shirt, just in case.

Requests for hire vans that might go trackside also tend to specify no red or green vans.

 

[jfowkes]

I've seen cyclists reminded to not turn their lights on until they've left the station, which makes a lot of sense. Putting reminder stickers in bike areas on the trains themselves would perhaps be sensible I think.

 

[Turtle]

I seem to recall that some drivers weren't impressed with the large quantities of red paint used in stations when the Network South East colour scheme came in.

I remember that as well.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Nov 2023 ==

I remember that as well.

Was it not based on the concept that the colour red, on the railway, is always associated with "stop/danger". Consequently it was good practice to use it as little as possible.

 

[AdamWW]

Was it not based on the concept that the colour red, on the railway, is always associated with "stop/danger". Consequently it was good practice to use it as little as possible.

That's my recollection, yes.

 

[68000]

What is the point of putting them all on the pillars like that?

 

[Taunton]

Curiously the colour red has featured in rolling stock liveries as much as any other. Two different shades of it took BR from nationalisation into the 1960s. London Underground kept it for the longest time.

For the station illustrated here they could have been turned 90 degrees to face the opposite platform. But no, they had to be ripped down and a huge "Nanny Knows Best" press release written and sent out to all who might print it.

 

[DDB]

Curiously the colour red has featured in rolling stock liveries as much as any other. Two different shades of it took BR from nationalisation into the 1960s. London Underground kept it for the longest time.

For the station illustrated here they could have been turned 90 degrees to face the opposite platform. But no, they had to be ripped down and a huge "Nanny Knows Best" press release written and sent out to all who might print it.

Was there actually a press release or in fact did the press department respond to a query from the press, explaining why they were removed and that they had given a specific advice beforehand to adoption groups to be careful when doing this?

 

[Merle Haggard]

Curiously the colour red has featured in rolling stock liveries as much as any other.

There were some other liveries that I thought unwise. For instance, the original Midland Mainline livery had orange horizontal stripes including one above windows i.m.o. easily confused with the orange horizontal stripe to indicate safe height under O.H.L.E..
Or, on platforms, the poles and supports for platform signs and lamp-posts painted black by London Midland. Not dangerous to drivers but possibly so for the poorly-sighted on a dark wet night.

 

[ExRes]

Any truth in the rumour that Network Rail intend to shoot any Robins landing on NR property?