North London Line freight train regulation policy.

[Class15]

Hi all,

This has come to my attention recently, but frequently signallers on the North London Line are using the goods loops to - far from recessing freight trains - allow freight trains to overtake passenger trains. For example, 4L90 Trafford Park to Felixstowe was allowed to overtake 2L60, a busy evening passenger service, despite only being 25 minutes late and having a booked stop in Ipswich Yard of well above that. I am curious to know why this is done, and what the rules are behind it. The freight would have been on time even if it had not overtaken the passenger service, due to the 90 min layover at Ipswich Yard. Attached is a screenshot of the incident I am referring to.

Thanks in advance for any info! Class15

 

[Surreytraveller]

Freight trains cross many different regions, more so than the little Overground trains they share the North London Line with, and will have a much bigger impact

 

[87015]

Freight trains cross many different regions, more so than the little Overground trains they share the North London Line with, and will have a much bigger impact

Citation needed!

 

[Class15]

Freight trains cross many different regions, more so than the little Overground trains they share the North London Line with, and will have a much bigger impact

The train was already running late so that’s not really valid.

 

[Class15]

Freight trains cross many different regions, more so than the little Overground trains they share the North London Line with, and will have a much bigger impact

I also struggle to see the impact of letting a freight overtake a passenger. The freight was well behind the passenger train so it wouldn’t have made a significant difference.

 

[Bald Rick]

In this case, I suspect that it was an attempt to get it to drop into the next standard path on the GEML, therby avoiding causing delay there. It nearly worked.

 

[Mr. SW]

Is it something to do with headway, scheduling and timing? Having the freight go ahead would possibly mean a good clean run to Stratford for handover to the mainline rather than being behind the stop/start of the passenger. Also if the freight waited enough time for a through run after the stopper, wouldn't it be further delayed by the next service? So having the freight run first, you may delay the stopper by a few minutes, but that would be a small price to pay, and possibly recoverable by sharp driving and layover at Stratford. So it would be very much a case of fitting the freight between the passenger services by tweaking the schedules of the relatively fast and powerful EMUs rather than the heavier and slower accelerating freights.

 

[Class 170101]

The risk is if 4L90 misses its slot on the GEML which is about 19:45 and following the Colchester Town service from Stratford it either runs late delaying the Braintree, Southend and then Norwich behind it, so a trail of delays in its wake but if its held to follow 2L60 whilst it would meet the next slot on the GEML behind the slow Ipswich, that slot is occupied by GBRF 4L18/4L62, so potentially the next slot at Stratford is 60 mins later and so would need to be held at Wembley or Camden to allow 4L18/4L62 to pass ahead if there is room which there certainly isn't at Stratford.

Could bust driver's hours or miss its slot at port. Lots of variables to consider.

 

[cockneyviking]

4L90 is booked in front of 2L60 even if it's running late, as mentioned it's to keep it near to schedule on the GEML

 

[Class15]

The risk is if 4L90 misses its slot on the GEML which is about 19:45 and following the Colchester Town service from Stratford it either runs late delaying the Braintree, Southend and then Norwich behind it, so a trail of delays in its wake but if its held to follow 2L60 whilst it would meet the next slot on the GEML behind the slow Ipswich, that slot is occupied by GBRF 4L18/4L62, so potentially the next slot at Stratford is 60 mins later and so would need to be held at Wembley or Camden to allow 4L18/4L62 to pass ahead if there is room which there certainly isn't at Stratford.

Could bust driver's hours or miss its slot at port. Lots of variables to consider.

“Slot at port” - it’s actually got 2hr 25min at Ipswich Yard and was 66 hauled on this day so there wasn’t even any need to change locos there. I don’t get the problem with holding it behind the passenger service.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Could be something to do with the time of year. Maybe there's a policy to avoid bringing freight trains to a stand in case they cannot get going again. I'm not familiar with the North London Line, so don't know what the gradients are like, but there is such a policy on the West London Line

 

[66701GBRF]

RTT shows 2L60 was run ahead of 4L90 on the remaining sections.

 

[Class15]

RTT shows 2L60 was run ahead of 4L90 on the remaining sections.

That’s bizarre: how can the signaller change his mind?

 

[66701GBRF]

If they were quick enough they could have cancelled the route for 4L90 without it seeing a change of aspect.

 

[Surreytraveller]

That’s bizarre: how can the signaller change his mind?

Perhaps an instruction from Control?

 

[westcoaster]

Could also be a glitch on the feed showing signal aspects.

 

[DarloRich]

I don’t get the problem with holding it behind the passenger service.

The loaded freight may be more important than the self loading freight!

 

[Surreytraveller]

Freights also take longer to slow down, longer to accelerate, and are physically longer, so take longer to clear junctions and loops may not be long enough either

 

[Jobi-wan]

“Slot at port” - it’s actually got 2hr 25min at Ipswich Yard and was 66 hauled on this day so there wasn’t even any need to change locos there. I don’t get the problem with holding it behind the passenger service.

There are so many variables here. 4L90 usually has to have a loco change due to other workings. If its got 1/4 tank of fuel its not going to make it to the port and then to Manchester. Fresh, full loco... no problem. The loco might have even needed an A exam when it got to ipswich.

That working (wembley to ipswich) is at the back end of a long diagram. I'd be dumping the train somewhere if it were any later than 60 mins as I'd be busting my hours, which is a very real possibility if, like somebody else has mentioned, you've got 2 other freights and a few passengers to stay in path.

For the sake of a few minutes, which the passenger trains can easily make up, it's absolutely not worth potentially causing major problems on other parts of the network.

 

[Class15]

There are so many variables here. 4L90 usually has to have a loco change due to other workings. If its got 1/4 tank of fuel its not going to make it to the port and then to Manchester. Fresh, full loco... no problem. The loco might have even needed an A exam when it got to ipswich.

Thanks for the comprehensive answer, very helpful.

That working (wembley to ipswich) is at the back end of a long diagram. I'd be dumping the train somewhere if it were any later than 60 mins as I'd be busting my hours, which is a very real possibility if, like somebody else has mentioned, you've got 2 other freights and a few passengers to stay in path.

For the sake of a few minutes, which the passenger trains can easily make up, it's absolutely not worth potentially causing major problems on other parts of the network.

LO trains have incredibly tight schedules and it’s very difficult to make up time (even to keep time) and if running late they either have to turnaround early or skip stations… hardly an ideal situation. I guess it’s all to find a balance.

 

[Mojo]

Thread reopened for @Class15 to provide an update.

 

[Class15]

Thank you @Mojo!

Tonight there’s been another case of this, and I’m Just starting to wonder, what was this one about? 3 separate passenger services appear to have been stopped in the Camden / Cale Rd area to allow 4L18 Trafford Park to Felixstowe a clear run, causing a 7 minute delay to one train 2L61! The freight was never going to regain time at Stratford even with a clear run as it was too late for that already, so was there any point?

 

[The Planner]

Thank you @Mojo!

Tonight there’s been another case of this, and I’m Just starting to wonder, what was this one about? 3 separate passenger services appear to have been stopped in the Camden / Cale Rd area to allow 4L18 Trafford Park to Felixstowe a clear run, causing a 7 minute delay to one train 2L61! The freight was never going to regain time at Stratford even with a clear run as it was too late for that already, so was there any point?

But that may have reduced any consequential delay to it and the outbound working from Felixstowe. They still need a certain time at the port.

 

[Bald Rick]

There was disruption last night due to an obstruction on the OLE near Acton Wells. Many LO services were runnign late and/or being terminated short / started short, including at Camden, Willesden, Dalston, etc.

Only 1 train was held for 4L18, and that was 2L61, which had started at Shepherds Bush. This was held for 6 minutes. That enabled 4L18 to catch up from being 15 late at Camden Rd to 7 late at Stratford where it then made its path to Colchester and on to Felixstowe, arriving 4 early. Had that regulation not happened at Camden, it would have ended up behind a Southend, then in the way of a Clacton and a Norwich, causing much more delay.

Unquestionably the correct decision.

 

[Horizon22]

Frustratingly freight running significantly late can cause knock on impacts to swathes of passenger services. Services looping around N. London can for instance impact the Elizabeth line, then Overground, then Elizabeth line again (on both GEML & GWML) and in congested and busy bits of London regulation decisions (or lack thereof) are very tight.

 

[Class15]

There was disruption last night due to an obstruction on the OLE near Acton Wells. Many LO services were runnign late and/or being terminated short / started short, including at Camden, Willesden, Dalston, etc.

Only 1 train was held for 4L18, and that was 2L61, which had started at Shepherds Bush. This was held for 6 minutes. That enabled 4L18 to catch up from being 15 late at Camden Rd to 7 late at Stratford where it then made its path to Colchester and on to Felixstowe, arriving 4 early. Had that regulation not happened at Camden, it would have ended up behind a Southend, then in the way of a Clacton and a Norwich, causing much more delay.

Unquestionably the correct decision.

So effectively what you are saying is that the North London Line should always be bottom priority and that it’s okay to cause delay there, when like you say the line was already disrupted. 2N61 had been cancelled so there was already a nice long gap in the service. Making it longer to allow a freight train to regain a few minutes just seems like the signallers aren’t very bothered about people getting to places on time.

I’m amazed TfL hasn’t complained.

 

[Bald Rick]

So effectively what you are saying is that the North London Line should always be bottom priority and that it’s okay to cause delay there, when like you say the line was already disrupted. 2N61 had been cancelled so there was already a nice long gap in the service. Making it longer to allow a freight train to regain a few minutes just seems like the signallers aren’t very bothered about people getting to places on time.

I’m amazed TfL hasn’t complained.

No. Read again what I said.

In summary what I’m saying is that the controllers took the right decision to minimise overall delay.

As for the gap in service: 2L60 departed Camden Road at 1947, arriving Stratford 2010. (Right behind 2N60). 2L61 departed Camden Rd at 1954 - 7 minutes later, and with the delay arrived Stratford 2022, 12 minutes behind 2L60. That is not, by any defintion, a ‘nice long gap in the service’.

The 6-7 minute delay to 2L61 prevented much more delay to at least 2 or 3 other services, both of which will have been carrying more people, all of whom will have paid more for their tickets. It also facilitated the right time arrival of the container service at Felixstowe, which in whole railway revenue terms would have been significantly more valuable than any of the passenger trains.

 

[bluegoblin7]

I can’t help but feel that this is coming from a misguided view that passenger trains are more important than others - that invariably isn’t the case. Whilst I don’t have freight trains on my railway, there are several times every day where the empty stock or engineers train will take priority over the passenger train because that’s the best thing for the railway as a whole. Signallers can’t afford to have tunnel vision and look at one train or location. From everything I’ve read here it was absolutely the right decision to delay one train, and I’d have done the same myself if it had been my patch.

 

[507020]

Whether you’re a passenger or a freight train, you do often see situations where a late running service which is shortly going to terminate a few stations along is allowed to run in front of one which is continuing, onto a much busier line, where it will delay many more services by a greater amount.

No one on the North London Line is travelling a long distance or likely to miss last connections etc, but if you’re on the North London Line and the London Overground is going to terminate only a few stops along at Stratford but the service behind it is going to continue for another 100 miles or more along much more constrained lines, then what you want is for the Overground service to arrive at Stratford, or at the end of the day you’ll end up with people stranded at Liverpool Street unable to get home because the GEML service has collapsed when everything was held up by that one freight train, which could have been given a clear run on the North London Line for the sake of a few minutes difference to a single Overground service.

If any of these short distance services can be taken out somewhere to avoid massive compound delays all over the network, then the opportunity should be taken, but too frequently isn’t.

 

[DarloRich]

Making it longer to allow a freight train to regain a few minutes just seems like the signallers aren’t very bothered about people getting to places on time.

repeating: The loaded freight may be more important than the self loading freight. Bigger picture and all that.

( and it is, of course, hard to see the bigger picture when stood on the platform in the rain waiting for your train!)