Additional calls to compensate for cancelled trains

[ChewChewTrain]

Today, the intermediate stations between Reading and Didcot Parkway (at least those with Main platforms) were graced by a few additional calls from various express services which normally wouldn’t touch them with a barge pole. There were a couple from Paddington to Cheltenham Spa, and from Hereford/Worcester to Paddington, as well as calls from what are normally the Oxford fasts in both directions.

This was, of course, because of unusually severe disruption resulting from damage to the power lines near Maidenhead (which, I presume, meant the 387s that would normally be used were trapped in the wrong places).

The additional calls only started appearing after several services in a row were cancelled. I was wondering if there was some kind of criteria for how many services have to be cancelled before additional calls are considered, or whether it’s more down to the personal whims of whoever makes the decisions about this sort of thing. Would I be right in thinking that additional calls are more likely to be added to a service if (as in today’s example) it’s operated by the same company as the cancelled services?

 

[The Planner]

Today, the intermediate stations between Reading and Didcot Parkway (at least those with Main platforms) were graced by a few additional calls from various express services which normally wouldn’t touch them with a barge pole. There were a couple from Paddington to Cheltenham Spa, and from Hereford/Worcester to Paddington, as well as calls from what are normally the Oxford fasts in both directions.

This was, of course, because of unusually severe disruption resulting from damage to the power lines near Maidenhead (which, I presume, meant the 387s that would normally be used were trapped in the wrong places).

The additional calls only started appearing after several services in a row were cancelled. I was wondering if there was some kind of criteria for how many services have to be cancelled before additional calls are considered, or whether it’s more down to the personal whims of whoever makes the decisions about this sort of thing. Would I be right in thinking that additional calls are more likely to be added to a service if (as in today’s example) it’s operated by the same company as the cancelled services?

It would be a decision between the TOC and NR controls. If there was a way of getting late notice bus/minibus etc, I suspect it wouldn't have been done. They would look at the impact to diagrams etc on the fly and make a call on the consequential delays.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Today, the intermediate stations between Reading and Didcot Parkway (at least those with Main platforms) were graced by a few additional calls from various express services which normally wouldn’t touch them with a barge pole. There were a couple from Paddington to Cheltenham Spa, and from Hereford/Worcester to Paddington, as well as calls from what are normally the Oxford fasts in both directions.

This was, of course, because of unusually severe disruption resulting from damage to the power lines near Maidenhead (which, I presume, meant the 387s that would normally be used were trapped in the wrong places).

The additional calls only started appearing after several services in a row were cancelled. I was wondering if there was some kind of criteria for how many services have to be cancelled before additional calls are considered, or whether it’s more down to the personal whims of whoever makes the decisions about this sort of thing. Would I be right in thinking that additional calls are more likely to be added to a service if (as in today’s example) it’s operated by the same company as the cancelled services?

The Main platforms at Goring and Streatley were in a bad way the last time I saw them a year ago. Has this somewhat improved? I will be there again in three weeks' time though.

 

[Horizon22]

Each TOC will have different criteria regarding this but generally it will be picked up within the NR/TOC Control and maybe highlighted by stations regarding the lack of service.

Of course if your stationis booked to only have a 1tph service and you have a 2 hour gap that is of course different to a station that is meant to have 6tph with a 2 hour gap, so it needs to be taken on a case-by-case basis along with the availability of alternative routes/transport, normal passenger numbers, external events, weather, time of day etc.

As you said electric traction couldn't run, so to ensure those stations had a service, there would have been additional calls. For certain routes and stations there is also likely to be some official contingency plan (whether TOC internal or joint with all operators) which state something like "every other 1Gxx train to call additionally at Z station".

 

[185]

Good to see common sense being applied, unlike another major operator, running their 90% empty trains non stop for 60-90mins on diversion, whilst missing out a very large interchange station on that diversion route.

The question was asked - could they serve that major station as an alternative to the two cancelled stops on the original route? - "Absolutely not!" with their managing director stating this week "we are unable to change the plan submitted to Network Rail by our planners" - which is nonsense. They further stated that "this would cause serious disruption to other services" despite being 10pm at night, only two other trains about, not affected and their diverted trains creeping through the station very slowly at >10mph.

During disruption, most of us know the planner's LTP timetable goes out of the window and STP short term plans appear. The ORR currently looking at this one, for the second time in 12 months. Their (three) 90% empty trains sailing through stations with passengers being pushed onto replacement buses illustrates rather well that expensive, taxpayer funded railway is not being run for the passengers.

 

[Cach17]

A few weeks ago I was on a train from St Pancras to Ramsgate (via Chatham) that called additionally at Higham because of all the Thameslink services being disrupted and cancelled. For a few hours(?) the resident of this small village must've been served exclusively by Javelins (and therefore had better seats for once!).

Couple minutes delay aside, a good move on SE's part.

 

[MotCO]

Many years ago, probably in the 1990's, I was at Charing Cross during a period of disruption and my station had several cancellations. We asked if a train could make an additional stop, and we were told it was down to the driver to agree. Would there be any truth in this?

 

[greatkingrat]

If the driver was close to the end of their shift, they could object to extra stops being added if it meant they would get back to their home depot late.

 

[dk1]

If the driver was close to the end of their shift, they could object to extra stops being added if it meant they would get back to their home depot late.

No that isn’t the case. I cannot refuse a SSO or SSOs.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Nov 2023 ==

Many years ago, probably in the 1990's, I was at Charing Cross during a period of disruption and my station had several cancellations. We asked if a train could make an additional stop, and we were told it was down to the driver to agree. Would there be any truth in this?

No, none at all. We cannot refuse once the order is issued.

 

[Horizon22]

Many years ago, probably in the 1990's, I was at Charing Cross during a period of disruption and my station had several cancellations. We asked if a train could make an additional stop, and we were told it was down to the driver to agree. Would there be any truth in this?

Ultimately the driver has to ‘agree’ but in reality I have almost never seen a driver reject a request from control to stop additionally, but they should obviously note it. On the extremely rare occasions, it is normally because the driver states the train is already full and standing or there has been some communication error to the driver (so not really agreed in such an instance).

So no, not really any truth to it but perhaps the staff simplified the answer.

 

[Jim]

Some lines of route have particular contingency plans that apply, but even then it's more of a guide than rules in some cases.

It's a tough one to actually call sometimes and depends where the TOC/NR Control of the specific area sit on delay minutes v actually running a service for customers/passengers...

 

[Surreytraveller]

No that isn’t the case. I cannot refuse a SSO or SSOs.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Nov 2023 ==



No, none at all. We cannot refuse once the order is issued.

Depends who your employer is. Some drivers are entitled to refuse stop orders if its their last train

 

[dk1]

Depends who your employer is. Some drivers are entitled to refuse stop orders if its their last train

Only thing I could refuse is a late start awaiting connections on some routes but being the lovely chap I am I never have especially when bribed with chocolate.

 

[52290]

Last Friday I arrived at Manchester Oxford Road expecting to catch the 16.34 to Leyland only to find that both it and the subsequent 17.04 had been cancelled. I noted that there was a 16.53 to Preston running but it didn't stop at Leyland.
I spoke to the man in charge at the gate and asked if a special stop order could be put on this train for Leyland. At first he was a bit reluctant to do it but said he would ring control. About two minutes before departure he told me the SSO had been granted. I wasn't the only person who got off at Leyland. The train should, of course, gone to Barrow, but had been cancelled north of Preston.

 

[Hadders]

In the 2018 Thameslink shambles drivers of 12-car class 365 trains would refuse special stop orders for places like Arlesey on account of there being no dispatch staff. 8-car trains could self dispatch but not 12-car. Passengers became very frustrated because the service level was already appalling, and this just made it worse.

 

[PGAT]

Fast trains sometimes stop at Selhurst when there's trouble. The other day an East Grinstead train stopped at Streatham Common as well

 

[miklcct]

There was an instance where a disruption suspended all the Sutton loop services at my local station (Cricklewood) but all the other trains (including Luton - Rainham trains) were sailing fast, with a notice put at the station entrance saying no trains running. I messaged Thameslink customer service to ask how I should travel and they replied me about a train which hadn't been cancelled in about 2 and a half hours time (I have forgotten whether it was a Sutton or a Rainham train). I have also forgotten if / how I travelled at the end from Cricklewood to Central London.

 

[MCR247]

Fast trains sometimes stop at Selhurst when there's trouble. The other day an East Grinstead train stopped at Streatham Common as well

I’ve also seen extra calls at Selhurst when Palace are playing at home too

 

[td97]

Northern have special stop orders frequently on the "other train service updates" journeycheck.com/nt

Tonight there are various examples due to traincrew shortages. It's not yet published but the 2346 from Manchester Airport will end up with all the stops between Airport and Salford Crescent, then again between Bolton and Blackpool, as the previous 2 services are cancelled. Presumably Oxford Road and Deansgate will be locked up later than usual to accommodate this.

Northern usually prefer to do this than rail replacement buses. The social media team don't like these requests though and try to pretend it's acceptable to wait 120 minutes.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

Only thing I could refuse is a late start awaiting connections on some routes but being the lovely chap I am I never have especially when bribed with chocolate.

It may be possible that if stopping at a station (particularly if it means going via another and slower route like a big loop) means that it is going to add 10+ minutes, the driver may be over their shift length or maximum driving hours in which case they could refuse or ask for relief at some point. Admittedly, this is rare and most additional stops you’ll be passing through anyway so will only add a couple minutes.

 

[dk1]

It may be possible that if stopping at a station (particularly if it means going via another and slower route like a big loop) means that it is going to add 10+ minutes, the driver may be over their shift length or maximum driving hours in which case they could refuse or ask for relief at some point. Admittedly, this is rare and most additional stops you’ll be passing through anyway so will only add a couple minutes.

Yes I've gone over 12hrs several times over the years with 15.5 being my longest driving shift during disruption. Usually booked off with pay the next day so it's all worth it.

 

[WelshBluebird]

In my few years of commuting between Oldfield Park and Keynsham there were a handful of times where a HST (back when those ran the London - Bristol services) would stop at both stations if there was severe disruption to the local stopping services. I think HST's stopping at Keynsham wasn't that rare (and even now there's at least one IET service per day timetabled to stop there) but certainly them stopping at Oldfield Park was pretty abnormal.

 

[thenorthern]

As others have said sometimes rail companies have to contact other operators to get additional calls. When I was regularly traveling to Longport in the East Midlands Trains days there were times when the EMT trains would terminate at Uttoxeter and a rail replacement bus would take passengers to Stoke-on-Trent and then the London Midland (as it was then) services would make an additional advertised call at Longport to compensate for the cancelled EMT services. I also had a time where there was severe weather and a Northern train from Manchester Piccadilly to Stoke-on-Trent was slowing down and the train stopped and the driver popped his head out of the window and said that he had been radioed to make an unadvertised stop at Longport if there were any passengers waiting as a lot of trains were cancelled that day because of the weather.

If it was only one train cancelled then there would be no additional calls at Longport and it would be a case of wait for the next train in an hour.

Also with Peartree if the 0745 departure from Derby is cancelled I have known the 0848 departure from Derby make an additional call at Peartree. I assume this is because the next departure from Peartree towards Crewe is at 16:55 and is run as a bus.

 

[class17]

Last Friday I arrived at Manchester Oxford Road expecting to catch the 16.34 to Leyland only to find that both it and the subsequent 17.04 had been cancelled. I noted that there was a 16.53 to Preston running but it didn't stop at Leyland.
I spoke to the man in charge at the gate and asked if a special stop order could be put on this train for Leyland. At first he was a bit reluctant to do it but said he would ring control. About two minutes before departure he told me the SSO had been granted. I wasn't the only person who got off at Leyland. The train should, of course, gone to Barrow, but had been cancelled north of Preston.

This reminds me of the time I was going to Scotland from Leyland with work, 30+ years ago. The Preston train from Manchester to Blackpool had been cancelled, a morning commuter train. The inter-city Manchester to Scotland (Manchester/Liverpool to Glasgow/Edinburgh) slowly came down Platform 1 to stop at the red signal at the end of the platform to make an unscheduled stop for us.

Obviously it had been arranged, as the ticket office clerk was on the platform to talk to the driver and guard as I recall.

Fortunately for me, this was the train I was due to catch at Preston, so a through train to Glasgow for me!

 

[Horizon22]

Fast trains sometimes stop at Selhurst when there's trouble. The other day an East Grinstead train stopped at Streatham Common as well

I gather that's primarily crew related reasons, rather than for the passenger.

 

[PGAT]

I gather that's primarily crew related reasons, rather than for the passenger.

They’re also stopping today, right now for the football match at Selhurst park

 

[westcoaster]

If the driver was close to the end of their shift, they could object to extra stops being added if it meant they would get back to their home depot late.

Would be TOC dependant. We can only refuse a stop order if it impacts on busting driving hours or spoiling a PNB.

 

[Horizon22]

They’re also stopping today, right now for the football match at Selhurst park

Yes but these are normally planned, timetable stops no?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Nov 2023 ==

Would be TOC dependant. We can only refuse a stop order if it impacts on busting driving hours or spoiling a PNB.

Surely then you just have a later PNB & your next working is late (if it can’t be covered)?

 

[30907]

Surely then you just have a later PNB & your next working is late (if it can’t be covered)?

But don't PNBs have to be taken within a specific time from booking on?

 

[AlastairFraser]

There was an unadvertised (as far as I could ascertain) stop at Mill Hill (Lancs) on the York-Blackpool I was on last night.
There seemed to be a fair few kids congregating on the platform, and some hi viz security marshalling them onto the train, so I wondered if a SSO got issued for disorder at a station or something? The previous East Lancs stopper wasn't cancelled.