Cardiff to Brighton Advance

[ValleyLines142]

Good afternoon,

My cousin has an Advance single from Cardiff to Brighton via Farringdon. She has got on her booked train from Paddington, but just wondering whether the ticket would include travel from Victoria to Brighton rather than the notoriously busy Thameslink? The ticket that goes through the barrier doesn't specify that on the ticket, but I imagine it would probably reject at the gateline at Victoria?

Thanks in advance (pardon the pun!)

 

[Sonic1234]

GTR reject all advance tickets at their gates, so it will be rejected at Victoria. If it doesn't specify a connecting service you should be OK, usually these tickets have a reservation printed on a Thameslink train.

Are there any services from Victoria? Thought these days Brighton was served mostly (entirely?) by Thameslink.

 

[avid2424]

I have much the same Advance Single from East or West Croydon to Carmarthen

Booked via the forum’s rail ticket site

I deliberately booked to use the Thameslink link to Farringdon and then via the Elizabeth Line to Paddington

And far easier to go via the ONE platform at Farringdon rather than the choice of platforms at Victoria which are all miles away from the Underground

My paper rail ticket does not show any booked Thameslink service. Solely the specified GWR service from Paddington

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Nov 2023 ==

Also if you travel via Farringdon the only gates would be Elizabeth Line at Paddington and the Southern gates on arrival at Brighton. So two less gates

 

[mangyiscute]

GTR reject all advance tickets at their gates, so it will be rejected at Victoria. If it doesn't specify a connecting service you should be OK, usually these tickets have a reservation printed on a Thameslink train.

Are there any services from Victoria? Thought these days Brighton was served mostly (entirely?) by Thameslink.

Victoria to Brighton is now served by Gatwick Express half hourly, but no Southern services run direct

 

[island]

Victoria to Brighton is now served by Gatwick Express half hourly, but no Southern services run direct

Services marked "Gatwick Express" are Southern services.

 

[miklcct]

Thameslink trains to Brighton are all reservable, therefore you must travel on the specified trains on your Advance ticket.

If you want to travel via Victoria, you need to specify it when buying the ticket.

 

[Alex365Dash]

My paper rail ticket does not show any booked Thameslink service.

All Thameslink services through East Croydon are (or should!) be reservable.

Are you sure your paper ticket doesn’t show a booked Thameslink service on your ticket? This may be on a separate mandatory reservation coupon.

Victoria to Brighton is now served by Gatwick Express half hourly, but no Southern services run direct

Except Sundays!

 

[avid2424]

Re my ticket commencing from East Croydon and with the forum’s itinerary routed via Thameslink to Farringdon - no separate coupon etc. Indeed Thameslink is the first leg on the journey so any Thameslink reservation would be printed on the main ticket and/or the GWR reservation would be on a separate mandatory reservation coupon - being for the final leg of my journey - should any separate coupon be in play

 

[Alex365Dash]

Re my ticket commencing from East Croydon and with the forum’s itinerary routed via Thameslink to Farringdon - no separate coupon etc. Indeed Thameslink is the first leg on the journey so any Thameslink reservation would be printed on the main ticket and/or the GWR reservation would be on a separate mandatory reservation coupon - being for the final leg of my journey - should any separate coupon be in play

It turns out I was wrong and Thameslink services to/from East Grinstead (I forgot about those!) aren’t reservable, so if your journey involves one of those that explains why you don’t have a Thameslink counted place reservation.

 

[paul1609]

GTR reject all advance tickets at their gates, so it will be rejected at Victoria. If it doesn't specify a connecting service you should be OK, usually these tickets have a reservation printed on a Thameslink train.

Are there any services from Victoria? Thought these days Brighton was served mostly (entirely?) by Thameslink.

The two fast Brighton Services from Victoria are operated by (the) Gatwick Express (brand).

 

[avid2424]

Thanks Alex365Dash re your post #8. I was indeed booked onto a Thameslink Train from East Grinstead

Of course I was joining the train at East Croydon and alighting at Farringdon. Am I seriously supposed to be finding out the starting point of the train? That information and/or that the Thameslink train did not have counted place reservations was not immediately obvious when I booked my ticket via the forum's rail ticket site, or at least that was not a point on my check list

Most especially would I be in the wrong if I had joined at East Croydon a Thameslink train that had started from Brighton or Horsham or Three Bridges or Gatwick Airport etc? I mean any train that had counted place reservations
How would I find out the origins as an ordinary passenger? Do I ask the train driver as to where the train had started from? The trains are driver only operated. Would there be any other rail staff on board? And where would I find them on the train, given that the train would have minimal dwell time? Would the platform staff care where the train came from - sorry would the platform staff know where the train came from - rather than spend ages looking it up. And who else could I ask at East Croydon to check whether my ticket was valid or not? Would the gate-line staff know about such validity? I think you know my Advance Ticket is automatically rejected at the Southern operated East Croydon station, as that is the way the gates are programmed. So in theory the gate-line staff would closely examine my ticket, and advise me of valid trains. Actually, I think they saw I had something orange, and immediately opened the gate for me

Likewise as an ordinary passenger how would I find out which Thameslink trains have counted place reservations? That is work through again all of the points in the preceding paragraph

And as a supplementary, the train in question was cancelled! What are my options? Find another Thameslink train that does not have counted place reservations? That is work through once more all of the points in the preceding paragraphs

Indeed there was an overtime ban rail timetable in place - and the train was removed from the timetable well before 10PM of the previous evening

The forum's rail ticket site did alert me by email re the cancellation. And helpfully told me to take the next service matching your ticket route and operator restrictions. Although I had not grasped that the restrictions meant that I had to find the next Thameslink train that did not have counted place reservations? The forum's rail site did flag up that I might not make the connection into my booked GWR service from Paddington to Carmarthen. GWR only serve Carmarthen every two hours, and it was a GWR Advance, so probably not valid on Transport for Wales Trains

Actually the forum's rail ticket site did not grasp that I had deliberately specified extended connection times when I made by booking, to include 30 minutes or more "performance and pathing allowances" in my own journey. So loads of spare time. And indeed these allowances were set so I could stock up in Marks and Sparks at Paddington station with enough to sustain me to Carmarthen. However I did not set up my "performance and pathing allowances" to allow for me finding another Thameslink train that did not have counted place reservations

 

[MrJeeves]

GTR reject all advance tickets at their gates, so it will be rejected at Victoria.

I've never had an advance rejected at Victoria, St Pancras, London Bridge, Brighton or Burgess Hill...

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Although I had not grasped that the restrictions meant that I had to find the next Thameslink train that did not have counted place reservations?

You don't need to do this.

Am I seriously supposed to be finding out the starting point of the train? [...] Likewise as an ordinary passenger how would I find out which Thameslink trains have counted place reservations?

I think it's safe to say an ordinary passenger would check their itinerary when they book, and then follow it provided they can rather than looking into alternatives after-the-fact.

 

[JonathanH]

You don't need to do this.

Technically you have to travel on the train you made your booking for, shown on your itinerary, although clearly if there is a cancellation there is no need to determine the next train without reservations.

As you say

an ordinary passenger would check their itinerary when they book, and then follow it

Thameslink counted place reservations are a bit of a nuisance as they often prevent through bookings at the cheapest tier from North of London (or indeed west of London as in this case), but I guess that is part of the point.

 

[MrJeeves]

Technically you have to travel on the train you made your booking for, shown on your itinerary, although clearly if there is a cancellation there is no need to determine the next train without reservations.

Indeed, the quoted section was about the result of a cancellation.

 

[avid2424]

To pick up from posts #11 #12 and #13 as I said in my posts #3 and 7, my paper rail ticket simply quotes the seat reservation out of Paddington to Carmarthen - and the first part of my journey commencing from East Croydon is detailed “& connections”

I do not think that the itinerary supplied by the forum’s rail ticket site would be the itinerary I have to follow

Does the railway ask to see my ticket. Or does the railway say that my “& connections” ticket is not valid on its own and that I must supply the itinerary presented when I bought the ticket

 

[MrJeeves]

Does the railway ask to see my ticket. Or does the railway say that my “& connections” ticket is not valid on its own and that I must supply the itinerary presented when I bought the ticket

If they're paper tickets, you only need to show the coupon(s) that were printed. Your ticket is only valid if accompanied by the reservation coupon(s).

For an e-ticket, the whole itinerary will be included with the pdf or wallet pass.

 

[avid2424]

Hence I opt for paper tickets

And Thameslink counted place reservations are a bit of a nuisance. Here I am right now at Farringdon and going to East Croydon. The timetable is a train every 5 minutes. Indeed I am now on a raft of trains all running 5 minutes late - apart from the two that are 22 and 30 minutes late. Bit rough if you have the counted place reservation showing on your e-ticket specifying the one running 30 minutes late - and unlikely to get permission to catch an earlier train to East Croydon

 

[MrJeeves]

Bit rough if you have the counted place reservation showing on your e-ticket specifying the one running 30 minutes late - and unlikely to get permission to catch an earlier train to East Croydon

You're allowed to take the next service matching the restrictions of your ticket if your advance service is delayed...

 

[avid2424]

And the one running 30 minutes late will probably be empty - and I effectively reallocate my counted place reservation from an empty train to one that Thameslink did not want me on. Counted place reservations are a farce

 

[MrJeeves]

Counted place reservations are a farce

You're right. We should get rid of advances where seat reservations don't exist, and instead charge full price walk-ups.

I'm sure the people enjoying £3 advances from Portsmouth to London would be chuffed.

 

[JonathanH]

I'm sure the people enjoying £3 advances from Portsmouth to London would be chuffed.

The thing is that the Thameslink advances aren't all that cheap, certainly not comparable with some of the Southern ones, and they are quite limited in routes covered.

Counted place reservations are a farce

They aren't. They enable advance purchase tickets to be made available on regional services. There are some fairly long distance journeys - eg Liverpool to London via LNR, London to Exeter via Salisbury, that are on counted place reservations.

The issue arises where a short journey needs to be made as part of a longer itinerary on a train with counted place reservations.

 

[MrJeeves]

The thing is that the Thameslink advances aren't all that cheap, certainly not comparable with some of the Southern ones, and they are quite limited in routes covered.

I will agree Thameslink takes the mick with their pricing, but it does still undercut a single most of the time (and something two undercut a return too, barely).

 

[Hadders]

My view is that Advance tickets aren't compatible with an operation like Thameslink where trains run through the core every few minutes. Much better to have a sensibly Anytime/Off Peak/Super Off Peak fares structure that generally does exist.

 

[avid2424]

Just to make clear I had an Advance ticket to Carmarthen. Main leg of journey was from Paddington. Stay on the train after it gets to Cardiff and after another two hours the train eventually gets to Carmarthen

The fare setter is GWR and any necessary connections per BR Fares are any TOC

My paper ticket did not include any mention of a counted place reservation re the first part of my itinerary from East Croydon to Farringdon. My rail fare included a fare for this bit

The forum said as above that I did not get a counted place reservation because the train in question started from East Grinstead. I care not re its origin

But it is frankly bizarre that where GWR are the fare setter apparently Thameslink have a counted place system re connections using their trains that are mostly running every 5 minutes between East Croydon and Farringdon - and especially re this very short any TOC leg

This is wholly different to Southern or SWR being the fare setter re Advance Tickets being sold in quota tiers. And where counted place reservations are so much better than actual reservations. No punch ups re someone sitting in my seat. And mostly I get the seat that I want instead of one of those partial view seats that every booking engine insists on allocating to me

 

[Hadders]

It's nothing to do with who the fare setter is. The problem is the rollout of Advance fares on a wider basis.

Advance fares historically were only available on 'inter-city' long distance type services. They come with a mandatory reservation but no reservation was issued for the 'connecting local train' at either end of a journey because these 'connecting local trains' did not offer seat reservations or Advance fares.

We now have a situation where, in many cases, the operators of the 'connecting local trains' offer their own Advance fares. This means these trains must have seat reservations set up to allow an Advance ticket to be sold. The seat reservations aren't normally a proper seat reservation, simply a counted place which allows an Advance ticket to be sold that is linked to a specific train. This is fine for a journey wholly on the 'connecting local train'.

The unintended consequence comes when a longer journey is being made using Advance tickets because the system will book mandatory seat reservations on all trains where seat reservations are available. If a mandatory seat reservation is included on your itinerary then officially you must travel on those specific trains. In your particular case some of the 'connecting local trains' are set up for Advance fares, some aren't.

The whole situation is unsatisfactory in my view but while operators of local connecting trains (many of which do actually operatoe over long distances) offer Advance tickets I really can't see a way round it.

 

[hermit]

I've never had an advance rejected at Victoria, St Pancras, London Bridge, Brighton or Burgess Hill...

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As a regular user of Southern Advances (often the £3 tickets to or from Portsmouth mentioned above) I can testify that they are almost always rejected by the barriers at Victoria.

 

[paul1609]

As a regular user of Southern Advances (often the £3 tickets to or from Portsmouth mentioned above) I can testify that they are almost always rejected by the barriers at Victoria.

I believe its the railcard discount thats causing the rejection not the type of ticket.

 

[hermit]

I believe its the railcard discount thats causing the rejection not the type of ticket.

If that is so, it’s a remarkably pointless policy. The upshot is that you are waved through without any serious checks - I’ve never had to produce my railcard. And particularly when a full train arrives the rush is such that there is not even the pretence of checking. I think any old ticket would get you through.

 

[MrJeeves]

I believe its the railcard discount thats causing the rejection not the type of ticket.

I understand this is typically the case at Waterloo, but I've also not had this happen at Victoria, at least not with my standard Travelcard tickets with 16-25 railcard.

 

[avid2424]

Paper Southern Advance Ticket rejected at East Croydon travelling East Croydon to Chichester. Ticket has Senior Railcard discount

Error code is 105. I gather this means invalid TOC type ticket

My experience is all my paper Advance/Senior tickets will be rejected at East Croydon as that is the way Southern have programmed the gates

But why not a more logical error code?