Grand union Cardiff to Edinburgh open access proposal

[anthony263]

Just seen this article in railway gazette. Link shown below :

Cardiff – Edinburgh open access train service proposal under development

UK: Grand Union has begun industry consultation over a proposal to operate five open access services a day between Cardiff and Edinburgh, and separately is looking at rolling stock options for its planned London - Carmarthen and London - Stirling services. Grand Union Managing Director Ian ...

www.railwaygazette.com

Grand union have now ruled out using hsts on the Carmarthen to London service instead looking at class 221/222s

 

[357]

‘We are looking at options to start early if suitable stock is available’, he said. ‘Clearly Class 22x or possibly even Class 180 trains fit that bill but there would be work to do on changing stock type after an ORR decision.

 

[Bletchleyite]

180s? Are they going after being called Grand Cancel II?

Seriously bad idea!

 

[30907]

That might explain why XC have decided to run a Cardiff-Edinburgh

 

[Andy1673]

There were so many of them....
They would use class 153 (sarcasm)

 

[A S Leib]

Apart from 8xxs are there any bi-mode trains which could realistically be used for London–Carmarthen? I'd guess that 755s are too slow for that (100 mph vs 125 for 800s, 220s and 180s). Diesel-only rolling stock when two thirds of the route length is electrified doesn't seem ideal.

 

[Speed43125]

That might explain why XC have decided to run a Cardiff-Edinburgh

Ahaha, might well be the case!

 

[Blindtraveler]

Haven't read the article but assume grand Union would root via crew and wcml rather than Chris crossing via the Midlands as cross-country we'll do on their once daily service, I wonder what sort of limitations will be placed upon them in terms of station calls they can't make, should imagine Newport Hereford and Shrewsbury will be okay, not quite so sure about crew or Preston though, can't imagine them snipping too much about additional calls at Carlisle, the northern wcml does tend to creek a bit when it's under strain in the summer or Christmas so a few extra seats every few hours would be welcome as Would some calls at destinations like Lockerbie or Penrith but we don't want it stopping too much or the journey time will be uncompetitive. Glad they ruled out using HST and for the Cardiff Edinburgh service with 50% of it not underwires that they would need to buy something by mode if starting new so a 22 x unit makes perfect sense as does my favorite of the lot, a 180, and I'm not joking I do genuinely like these trains

 

[The Planner]

Haven't read the article but assume grand Union would root via crew and wcml rather than Chris crossing via the Midlands as cross-country we'll do on their once daily service, I wonder what sort of limitations will be placed upon them in terms of station calls they can't make, should imagine Newport Hereford and Shrewsbury will be okay, not quite so sure about crew or Preston though, can't imagine them snipping too much about additional calls at Carlisle, the northern wcml does tend to creek a bit when it's under strain in the summer or Christmas so a few extra seats every few hours would be welcome as Would some calls at destinations like Lockerbie or Penrith but we don't want it stopping too much or the journey time will be uncompetitive. Glad they ruled out using HST and for the Cardiff Edinburgh service with 50% of it not underwires that they would need to buy something by mode if starting new so a 22 x unit makes perfect sense as does my favorite of the lot, a 180, and I'm not joking I do genuinely like these trains

It copies the XC routing. Will fail abstraction massively unless they avoid New St and go Camp Hill.

 

[Iskra]

It's quite clever this- it's basically much needed extra capacity on the XC core, without the risk of any subsidy or taxpayers money being used. You'd think the DFT would be in favour, plus it ticks the political boxes by appeasing the Nations. I'm not sure there would be much end-to-end demand, but as a Sheffield resident I'd be very happy with any additional capacity on the XC core, however it comes

 

[A S Leib]

It copies the XC routing. Will fail abstraction massively unless they avoid New St and go Camp Hill.

Would it stand a chance if it kept Birmingham but changed some of the other parts (e.g. Tamworth (pick up / set down only as there's the Nottingham service for Tamworth to Gloucestershire and Cardiff anyway) or Chesterfield and Northallerton but no Derby, Sheffield or York)?

Edit: ignore this post or add on to it in Speculative Discussion

 

[The Planner]

Would it stand a chance if it kept Birmingham but changed some of the other parts (e.g. Tamworth (pick up / set down only as there's the Nottingham service for Tamworth to Gloucestershire and Cardiff anyway) or Chesterfield and Northallerton but no Derby, Sheffield or York)?

Doubt it, New St is where all the revenue is.

 

[Iskra]

It copies the XC routing. Will fail abstraction massively unless they avoid New St and go Camp Hill.

Is it abstraction, if XC trains are so full they have to price people off them? This service could well create extra demand, rather than abstract and all without the risk to the taxpayer if XC had have done the same, using the exact same rolling stock.

 

[JonathanH]

It's quite clever this- it's basically much needed extra capacity on the XC core, without the risk of any subsidy or taxpayers money being used.

No, you miss the point that it would reduce the money going to XC, and therefore need more subsidy.

The headline of Cardiff to Edinburgh hides the fact that it is an attempt to take money for journeys on the Birmingham to Newcastle stretch. Cardiff to Edinburgh is so much quicker via Crewe.

 

[ScotRail158725]

Reckon its a missed opportunity to send it via the WCML however it would be good to have extra trains on the Bristol-Birmingham-Derby-Sheffield-York corridor

 

[Iskra]

No, you miss the point that it would reduce the money going to XC, and therefore need more subsidy.

The headline of Cardiff to Edinburgh hides the fact that it is an attempt to take money for journeys on the Birmingham to Newcastle stretch. Cardiff to Edinburgh is so much quicker via Crewe.

It wouldn't if people are not travelling on XC because of the fares and the over-crowding, it could well create extra revenue as adding additional services does tend to. However, that is more of an ideological debate, so I doubt we're going to agree.

 

[dk1]

180s? Are they going after being called Grand Cancel II?

Seriously bad idea!

I must agree to also being shocked. Sure it’s just to throw us all off the scent.

 

[Megafuss]

I'm surprised they've not used Worcestershire Parkway as a potential stop. I'd have thought it could get more passengers than Seven Tunnel Junction.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Reckon its a missed opportunity to send it via the WCML however it would be good to have extra trains on the Bristol-Birmingham-Derby-Sheffield-York corridor

No paths on the north WCML.

 

[JonathanH]

No paths on the north WCML.

There aren't any on the north ECML either.

One missed trick on this appears to be that the Stirling to Euston and Cardiff to Edinburgh services could join at Crewe and split at Carstairs to only use one path.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There aren't any on the north ECML either.

Is Lumo's path not available hourly? They only actually run 5tpd I think.

 

[Bald Rick]

Is Lumo's path not available hourly? They only actually run 5tpd I think.

Nope

 

[JonathanH]

Is Lumo's path not available hourly? They only actually run 5tpd I think.

Lumo don't have their trains pathed at the same time in each hour when they run. Yes, it is 5 a day.

 

[XCTurbostar]

I'm surprised they've not used Worcestershire Parkway as a potential stop. I'd have thought it could get more passengers than Seven Tunnel Junction.

I agree, Worcestershire Parkway could have given it some traction.

My gut feeling is similar to others.. I imagine it will fail because of route similarity.

 

[ShadowKnight]

But given that the general consensus it seems about XC is that it has not enough capacity along its main route. This would provide the needed capacity along the route.

 

[A S Leib]

Lumo don't have their trains pathed at the same time in each hour when they run. Yes, it is 5 a day.

The same applies to Hull Trains (5 xx:48 weekday departures from King's Cross but the other three are closer to xx:25) and only five of the eleven Grand Central departures are at xx:27. (Of the 22 weekday Grand Central, Hull Trains and Lumo departures from King's Cross, 7 leave at xx:27, 9 leave at xx:48 and the other 6 leave at 10:45, 10:57, 12:56, 14:56, 20:00 and 20:30).

 

[Trainguy34]

For some reasons, when I saw 22x, I instantly thought of the LNER IC225s. That however, would unfortunately definitely not happen.

 

[brad465]

Saw this and thought, here we go again...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Saw this and thought, here we go again...

Or more accurately here we don't go again.

 

[Mugby]

Sounds like it could be ideal work for the Class 68 + Mk.5 sets soon to be withdrawn by TPE.