Grand union Cardiff to Edinburgh open access proposal

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Sounds like it could be ideal work for the Class 68 + Mk.5 sets soon to be withdrawn by TPE.

Not unless it terminated at Doncaster. Too slow to go further north with how busy the Northern ECML now is.

 

[Harold]

If approved I think this will be the only UK passenger rail service to cover Wales, England and Scotland in a single journey, impressive and very much needed!

 

[Some guy]

It would be ludicrous not to send it via the west coast it provides connections for the north west towards south wales and will be a much faster direct route

 

[The exile]

If approved I think this will be the only UK passenger rail service to cover Wales, England and Scotland in a single journey, impressive and very much needed!

Other than the fact the XC are apparently about to do the same thing.

 

[A S Leib]

It would be ludicrous not to send it via the west coast it provides connections for the north west towards south wales and will be a much faster direct route

The North West already has a connection to Cardiff (hourly from Manchester Piccadilly) and TfW Rail's planning one every other hour between Liverpool and Cardiff whilst Newcastle and Sheffield don't have a connection to Cardiff. Via the WCML it would still be around six hours each way - too long to realistically go from Cardiff to Edinburgh and back in a day - so an extra hour for better connectivity with Yorkshire and the North East seems a fair trade.

 

[Envoy]

It would also be good news for Gloucester to have these direct services to the north-east along with Cardiff.

I do however think that a direct Cardiff to Edinburgh service via The Marches (Hereford) would be a good idea as this is the shortest/quickest route. Through ticket prices between south Wales and Edinburgh are ridiculous whichever way people travel. Air fares between Cardiff & Edinburgh are also high and therefore most people travel with Easyjet between Bristol & Edinburgh.

 

[irish_rail]

The North West already has a connection to Cardiff (hourly from Manchester Piccadilly) and TfW Rail's planning one every other hour between Liverpool and Cardiff whilst Newcastle and Sheffield don't have a connection to Cardiff. Via the WCML it would still be around six hours each way - too long to realistically go from Cardiff to Edinburgh and back in a day - so an extra hour for better connectivity with Yorkshire and the North East seems a fair trade.

Indeed. It would have been far better as Plymouth to Edinburgh via the WCML. Cardiff as you say is well connected to the North West, and has two trains per hour to Birmingham. It isn't even a massive city. Meanwhile the far south west has to make do with hourly 4 car voyagers North. Linking the greater southwest with the North West and Scotland would be transformational. This proposal, from Cardiff, and via the ECML just looks like a waste of time and capacity to me.

 

[The Planner]

It would be ludicrous not to send it via the west coast it provides connections for the north west towards south wales and will be a much faster direct route

Even though his ideas are often questionable, Yeowart would know that the WCML was incredibly unlikely as even more abstractive.

 

[Snow1964]

Other than the fact the XC are apparently about to do the same thing.

XC have apparently been considering (but not actually doing) many things when open access competition is mooted.

Their contract even allows them to start some of the Bristol terminators at Bath Spa (not being done), although a single daily train adding on Cardiff has been mooted (but again, not actually started)

They have certainly cut back via Doncaster (route proposed by Grand Union), and have rather pared down some other parts of their network in last Decade.

 

[A S Leib]

It would also be good news for Gloucester to have these direct services to the north-east along with Cardiff.

I do however think that a direct Cardiff to Edinburgh service via The Marches (Hereford) would be a good idea as this is the shortest/quickest route. Through ticket prices between south Wales and Edinburgh are ridiculous whichever way people travel. Air fares between Cardiff & Edinburgh are also high and therefore most people travel with Easyjet between Bristol & Edinburgh.

Cardiff to Edinburgh via Ludlow - 614 km, 4:50 at speed limits (according to signal.eu.org/osm).
Via Wolverhampton - 690 km, 5:45
Via Doncaster - 725 km, 4:55
Via Leeds - 745 km, 5:15

So going through Hereford and Shrewsbury doesn't really save time compared to Doncaster, and I suspect demand from Hereford, Ludlow and Shrewsbury to Warrington, Cumbria and Edinburgh's lower than combined demand between Sheffield, York and Newcastle and Cardiff (or between Doncaster and York / Newcastle, which is still missing more than half of the pre-covid service).

 

[Anonymous10]

Indeed. It would have been far better as Plymouth to Edinburgh via the WCML. Cardiff as you say is well connected to the North West, and has two trains per hour to Birmingham. It isn't even a massive city. Meanwhile the far south west has to make do with hourly 4 car voyagers North. Linking the greater southwest with the North West and Scotland would be transformational. This proposal, from Cardiff, and via the ECML just looks like a waste of time and capacity to me.

Worth remembering Cardiff is a regional hub for all of south Wales including Swansea and towns further west as well as the valleys with a population on its own nearly 100,000 larger. Without counting the metro area or Swansea, I'd hardly call this pie in the sky or a complete waste, actually makes as much sense as the Aberdeen-Penzance route

 

[Trainguy34]

It would be better if it went to Swansea, however if Grand Union are also proposing a London - Carmarthen service then that may sweeten the deal somehow.

Edit: To fix my 8am pre-coffee spelling.

 

[irish_rail]

Worth remembering Cardiff is a regional hub for all of south Wales including Swansea and towns further west as well as the valleys with a population on its own nearly 100,000 larger. Without counting the metro area or Swansea, I'd hardly call this pie in the sky or a complete waste, actually makes as much sense as the Aberdeen-Penzance route

I agree Penzance to Aberdeen is pretty daft also. Plymouth and Edinburgh are perfectly fine for onward connections west or north. The issue is the south west beyond Bristol is now hourly 4 car voyagers and yet serves a larger catchment than South Wales, and fewer travel possibilities. But as I said, it would really need to run via WCML to make it worthwhile as quite a few travel to the likes of Liverpool and Manchester, but more services to Darlington and Derby from the SW probably aren't needed.

 

[sprinterguy]

The issue is the south west beyond Bristol is now hourly 4 car voyagers and yet serves a larger catchment than South Wales, and fewer travel possibilities.

Well, a mix of 4-cars (6 or 7 services), 5-cars (5 or 6 services) and 8-cars (3 services). Granted it doesn't really seem sufficient, regardless.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sounds like it could be ideal work for the Class 68 + Mk.5 sets soon to be withdrawn by TPE.

It's been stated above that they are only 100mph so would be hard to path on the ECML.

The only sensible option for this service, if you call it sensible at all, is new 80x.

 

[A S Leib]

But as I said, it would really need to run via WCML to make it worthwhile as quite a few travel to the likes of Liverpool and Manchester, but more services to Darlington and Derby from the SW probably aren't needed.

But currently changing at Birmingham New Street's only ~25 minutes longer for Cardiff to Manchester than the direct service (with a fifteen minute connection), so apart from Crewe being an easier change going via the WCML would only really benefit Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Lancaster and Carlisle whilst significantly disadvantaging Derby, Sheffield, Doncaster, York and Newcastle (they're not planning on serving Darlington).

 

[Energy]

It copies the XC routing. Will fail abstraction massively unless they avoid New St and go Camp Hill.

Unsuprisingly they are going after the XC Birmingham to Cardiff and Bimringham to Sheffield flows.

The classic open access challenge of claiming to not abstract revenue while clearly wanting revenue from an existing flow.

 

[Envoy]

Indeed. It would have been far better as Plymouth to Edinburgh via the WCML. Cardiff as you say is well connected to the North West, and has two trains per hour to Birmingham. It isn't even a massive city. Meanwhile the far south west has to make do with hourly 4 car voyagers North. Linking the greater southwest with the North West and Scotland would be transformational. This proposal, from Cardiff, and via the ECML just looks like a waste of time and capacity to me.

Cardiff only has 1 direct train an hour to Birmingham.

Being a nation capital with tourism & business travel as well as a hub for densely populated SE Wales & further west, it generates many journeys. One has only to look at the amount of traffic on the M4 just west of Newport to gauge the flow of travel into and out of south Wales at all times of the year. Further observations at Cardiff Central show how busy the city is.

 

[Iskra]

It would be ludicrous not to send it via the west coast it provides connections for the north west towards south wales and will be a much faster direct route

There’s already adequate capacity on the Northern WCML and there is barely any population between Preston-Edinburgh.

 

[irish_rail]

There’s already adequate capacity on the Northern WCML and there is barely any population between Preston-Edinburgh.

Trouble is most of this capacity is only accessed with a change in London (involves Tube, Taxi or Bus) or the dreaded Birmingham New Street. Most of the country doesn't get direct trains to the WCML destinations. That's why someone, be it XC or OA need to be allowed to serve the west side of Britain.

 

[Along the bay]

It's been stated above that they are only 100mph so would be hard to path on the ECML.

The only sensible option for this service, if you call it sensible at all, is new 80x.

Is there a suitable locomotive to swap out the 68's for? Somehow I doubt it.

 

[Snow1964]

Is there a suitable locomotive to swap out the 68's for? Somehow I doubt it.

Not to UK loading gauge, but should be possible to take the tried (and they work) components from European loco and build batch to UK size. There are various designs rated for 200-220 km/h (124-136mph)

Don't know how quick they could be built and put in service though.

One thing I don't know is if loco has automatic couplers, could you use 68 south of Doncaster, but have mk5 electric power car for North of there.

For very long journeys might be more efficient to swap traction at Doncaster than have dual mode with deadweight diesel on the 450 mile round trip from Doncaster to Edinburgh and back again on electric.

 

[HSTEd]

For very long journeys might be more efficient to swap traction at Doncaster than have dual mode with deadweight diesel on the 450 mile round trip from Doncaster to Edinburgh and back again on electric.

I doubt there is a (long enough) rail journey possible in Britain that would make an avoidable loco swap preferable to electrodiesel equipment.

But I very much doubt this proposal will go anywhere regardless.

 

[Speed43125]

I doubt there is a rail journey possible in Britain that would make an avoidable loco swap preferable to electrodiesel equipment.

But I very much doubt this proposal will go anywhere regardless

Pendolinos to Holyhead continued until 2012. It isn't such a foreign concept in fairness.

 

[gingertom]

Is there a suitable locomotive to swap out the 68's for? Somehow I doubt it.

class 91 anyone? [ducks for cover]

Along the same lines of a 57 dragging a 390, could a 68 drag a 397?

 

[hexagon789]

class 91 anyone? [ducks for cover]

Along the same lines of a 57 dragging a 390, could a 68 drag a 397?

I'm sure the couplers could be molded, but that's not the issue.

The 57s could provide hotel power for a 390, it was part of the design spec for the 57 + 390 hauled operations.

I doubt a 68 could do the same for a 397; a 397 might not even be configured to take an outside ETS supply.

 

[gingertom]

a 397 might not even be configured to take an outside ETS supply.

oversight or deliberate to keep the costs down? Never envisaged probably.

 

[hexagon789]

oversight or deliberate to keep the costs down? Never envisaged probably.

I would think never envisaged.

 

[Jason White]

I've contacted Grand Union Trains about their plans for a Cardiff to Edinburgh route and the omission of a Worcestershire Parkway stop. Pathing restrictions is a familiar excuse used by TOC's so far as WOP is concerned and Grand Union is no exception. However, they are yet to submit all their final proposals to the ORR and would welcome correspondence from potential stakeholders and other interested parties to use as part of their developing business case. So get emailing.

 

[Iskra]

Meadowhall could be a useful stop too, opening a new market for a long distance operator.