TPE Plan for the future

[RailWonderer]

Which is simply not true, as had been mentioned many times previously. There are more drivers trained on Class 68/Mk5A sets than were originally envisaged would be needed to run 12 intensive diagrams per day.

Then why aren’t they running?

 

[sjpowermac]

Excuse me if I've missed this, but what services are affected by the Manchester-Leeds frequency reduction from 4 to 3 trains per hour from December 2023? I thought the frequency was already reduced, resulting in most Scarborough trains becoming a shuttle from York.

Yes indeed, this is a reduction on an already reduced timetable.

Pre-pandemic:
5 trains per hour express Leeds-Manchester.
Plus Leeds-Huddersfield and Huddersfield-Manchester stoppers.

Currently:
4 trains per hour express Leeds-Manchester
Plus Leeds-Huddersfield and Huddersfield-Manchester stoppers.

‘Tweaked’ December 2023 timetable
2 trains per hour express Leeds-Manchester
1 train per hour stopping all stations Leeds-Huddersfield then express on to Manchester
1 train per hour Huddersfield-Manchester stopper.

Don’t worry though, there will be plenty of forum members along shortly to tell you what a fantastic job TPE have done over the years and are continuing to do…

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Oct 2023 ==

Then why aren’t they running?

You seem to be the one with all the knowledge, why don’t you tell us?

 

[Starmill]

I did see the reference to competition and struggle to see the point.

Nearly half of the Manchester - Glasgow through trains are still withdrawn and I would be surprised to actually see them back. One of the northbounds is the 0457 which usually carries single figures from Manchester. At least all four of the southbounds are at more popular times. By contrast, connecting services are quicker and more frequent than ever.

 

[RailWonderer]

You seem to be the one with all the knowledge, why don’t you tell us?

I said there were plenty of threads, not that I had read all the posts at one point lack of driver training was an issue

 

[Starmill]

Don’t worry though, there will be plenty of forum members along shortly to tell you what a fantastic job TPE have done over the years and are continuing to do…

In addition to the capacity mess you outline for the North route here, new diagrams will be well short on capacity on the South route also between Liverpool Lime Street and Doncaster. Most Edinburgh services are also seriously capacity-constrained between Lancaster and Manchester Piccadilly, owing to somebody specifying five car sets rather than six. The reduction from an eight car 350 diagram down to a five car 397 is a serious issue. It also causes disruption to Northern and EMR when they accept displaced customers who would have been using TPE.

 

[ainsworth74]

I was confused by that. I'm aware of two separate TPE ticket sales portals: The one that's on TPE's home page (https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/) which most people would therefore tend to use, and the (IMO, much more useful) mixing desk one at https://tickets.tpexpress.co.uk/tpe/en/journeyplanning/mixingdeck. And I assume there is a phone app, which I don't use. Which one of those is the WebTIS one? And does this mean that one or more of the portals is likely to disappear?

They are both WebTIS but the second link in your post goes to the "mixing deck" interface of WebTIS which is almost obsolete and therefore basically hidden unless you've got a direct link to it still.

 

[YorksLad12]

They are both WebTIS but the second link in your post goes to the "mixing deck" interface of WebTIS which is almost obsolete and therefore basically hidden unless you've got a direct link to it still.

The "mixing desk" interface looks like the one National Express/East Coast used before we got the one we have now with LNER.

 

[danbarjon]

Is it just me or is the idea of an 802 at Scarborough quite strange, as I know they've been through Malton on test runs previously but I couldn't imagine seeing them in Scarborough.

 

[sjpowermac]

I said there were plenty of threads, not that I had read all the posts at one point lack of driver training was an issue

No problem

If you have the time, it’s worth reading through the various TPE announcements since August.

Also worth a watch are the two Transport for the North meetings that took place in September (the videos are on YouTube).

I think you will see how the TPE narrative changes over time.

It’s also evident from the videos that the Metro Mayors not at all happy over the loss of the Class 68/Mk5A sets, in contrast to the sanguine attitude adopted by many forum members.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Oct 2023 ==

In addition to the capacity mess you outline for the North route here, new diagrams will be well short on capacity on the South route also between Liverpool Lime Street and Doncaster. Most Edinburgh services are also seriously capacity-constrained between Lancaster and Manchester Piccadilly, owing to somebody specifying five car sets rather than six. The reduction from an eight car 350 diagram down to a five car 397 is a serious issue. It also causes disruption to Northern and EMR when they accept displaced customers who would have been using TPE.

All very good points.

Please try to remember, the timetable has been ‘tweaked’, nothing more

 

[ainsworth74]

The "mixing desk" interface looks like the one National Express/East Coast used before we got the one we have now with LNER.

That would be becuase it is

I think they were the launch customer in fact.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

They are both WebTIS but the second link in your post goes to the "mixing deck" interface of WebTIS which is almost obsolete and therefore basically hidden unless you've got a direct link to it still.

Almost obsolete? That's not what I want to hear! It's the only one of the main commercial sites that lets you find cheap tickets for slow LNWR trains on the London-Liverpool/Manchester routes! I hope it doesn't disappear!

 

[Energy]

Almost obsolete? That's not what I want to hear! It's the only one of the main commercial sites that lets you find cheap tickets for slow LNWR trains on the London-Liverpool/Manchester routes! I hope it doesn't disappear!

You should be able to find London-Liverpool by doing via Birmingham. I suspect not many show them because its a 4+ hour journey on LNWR.

 

[childwallblues]

Excuse me if I've missed this, but what services are affected by the Manchester-Leeds frequency reduction from 4 to 3 trains per hour from December 2023? I thought the frequency was already reduced, resulting in most Scarborough trains becoming a shuttle from York.

Liverpool to Hull for starters.

 

[Starmill]

It’s also evident from the videos that the Metro Mayors not at all happy over the loss of the Class 68/Mk5A sets, in contrast to the sanguine attitude adopted by many forum members.

I guess there's a nuance - I'm personally strongly opposed to the reduction in the fleet, even this relatively small one. I think we have to be realistic that the fleet isn't going to grow again soon, no matter what happens with demand, and that's why I'm against it. The actual sets I'm not particularly bothered about if they stay, go, or are used elsewhere. It's just that for narrow political reasons allocation of rolling stock is being badly matched to demand. I therefore agree strongly with the principle Burnham, Rotheram and others are getting at, even if maybe not the specifics. I also agree that the franchise setup in this case has wasted vast sums of public money, which is utterly disgraceful.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Its pretty scandalous what has happened to TPE and i hate to think how much taxpayers money was waisted by First with very little to show for it. Equally guilty are those in DafT who were supposed to have operational oversight of the EMRA.

Anyhow a line is drawn under it and OLR at least have been able to secure extra funding from DafT to improve staffing levels as well as smarten up trains and staff. Seems poor that they don't have an ambition to make some improvements in May 24 given forecast of where they will be with driver training although i read that they may not even reinstate services in Dec 24 depending what happens with ECML recast.

 

[Chester1]

Yes indeed, this is a reduction on an already reduced timetable.

Pre-pandemic:
5 trains per hour express Leeds-Manchester.
Plus Leeds-Huddersfield and Huddersfield-Manchester stoppers.

Currently:
4 trains per hour express Leeds-Manchester
Plus Leeds-Huddersfield and Huddersfield-Manchester stoppers.

‘Tweaked’ December 2023 timetable
2 trains per hour express Leeds-Manchester
1 train per hour stopping all stations Leeds-Huddersfield then express on to Manchester
1 train per hour Huddersfield-Manchester stopper.

Don’t worry though, there will be plenty of forum members along shortly to tell you what a fantastic job TPE have done over the years and are continuing to do…

I am on the middle ground, its really disappointing to see cuts but I want services to run as advertised and think TPE need to build the timetable around the staff they have available. TPE has been badly run for a long time and the plan to drop the Mark Vs and get rid of the training backlog seems to be the least worst option available.

 

[sjpowermac]

I am on the middle ground, its really disappointing to see cuts but I want services to run as advertised and think TPE need to build the timetable around the staff they have available. TPE has been badly run for a long time and the plan to drop the Mark Vs and get rid of the training backlog seems to be the least worst option available.

I can certainly see your point.

What seems very odd though is to be paying for the lease on the Mk5A stock until the end of May but not using the trains and at the same time losing all the driver/conductor competency…

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am on the middle ground, its really disappointing to see cuts but I want services to run as advertised and think TPE need to build the timetable around the staff they have available. TPE has been badly run for a long time and the plan to drop the Mark Vs and get rid of the training backlog seems to be the least worst option available.

Same, to an extent. However with the trains as they are I think it's just pragmatic - better fewer punctual trains than more randomly cancelled or late ones, even if it means the odd cancellation has higher impact.

 

[Starmill]

Same, to an extent. However with the trains as they are I think it's just pragmatic - better fewer punctual trains than more randomly cancelled or late ones, even if it means the odd cancellation has higher impact.

Indeed. Of course, the new timetable is so much worse in generalised journey time terms, and little better in capacity, than the pre-2018 one that fewer people will use it and fare revenue will be lower. But that's the price of mucking it up in the big way TPE has, any cut risks being a trigger for a cycle of decline. Let's just hope the decline is small and short.

 

[mildertduck]

Our local media in the Northeast (e.g. Newcastle Chronicle: https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/new...ral&utm_campaign=embedded_search_item_desktop) is reporting that one of the two hourly TPE services to Manchester is going to be cancel for the timetable change?

Newcastle to Manchester trains slashed to one per hour as Transpennine reveals timetable cuts [...] Under the new timetable, due to come into force on December 11, all 12 daily services between Newcastle and Manchester Piccadilly will be scrapped. The only remaining service to the North West will be an hourly TPE train to Liverpool Lime Street, which calls at Manchester Victoria.

Suggestion is that this is the train to Picc, leaving the Vic train (to Liverpool) as the only option between NE and NW. Is this right?

 

[800001]

Our local media in the Northeast is reporting that one of the two hourly TPE services to Manchester is going to be cancel for the timetable change? Suggestion is that this is the train to Picc, leaving the Vic train (to Liverpool) as the only option between NE and NW. Is this right?

I believe that would be correct, only way for Piccadilly would be a change of trains on route.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Suggestion is that this is the train to Picc, leaving the Vic train (to Liverpool) as the only option between NE and NW. Is this right?

The two-hourly Newcastle-Piccadilly is going, leaving just the hourly Newcastle-Victoria-Liverpool.

Given the way the two trains are timetabled (southbound from Newcastle there’s 15 minutes between them, northbound into Newcastle the arrivals are 6 minutes apart) this isn’t really an issue.

The hourly Saltburn-Victoria-Piccadilly-Airport will also remain.

 

[nr758123]

The hourly Saltburn-Victoria-Piccadilly-Airport will also remain.

There may be solid operational reasons for retaining it, but Middlesbrough-Saltburn is one of the few places on TPEs network where there is another TOC which provides perfectly adequate capacity and frequency. There's no need for a third train every hour to Saltburn. I would go further and say that its principal purpose is to look good on Ben Houchen's CV.

The places where there will be capacity challenges are on the core route between Manchester, Leeds and York. If the Saltburn extension could be withdrawn, how practicable would it be to redeploy the units and traincrew saved to places where they are more needed?

 

[DarloRich]

The hourly Saltburn-Victoria-Piccadilly-Airport will also remain.

that is good news - my concern is capacity on that service on the core section.

( and I note the capacity concerns expressed above by @Starmill )

 

[Tetchytyke]

There may be solid operational reasons for retaining it, but Middlesbrough-Saltburn is one of the few places on TPEs network where there is another TOC which provides perfectly adequate capacity and frequency.

When it started it ran in dead time, with the train previously stabling outside Middlesbrough for pretty much an hour. I know it’s different in the current timetable with it resting in Saltburn for 50 minutes instead. So I agree, there’d be a saving in curtailing at Boro and there’d be no impact on recovery time.

But I’m sure Ben Houchen’s position has not affected DfT’s decision making at all.

my concern is capacity on that service on the core section.

It’s staying hourly. I just hope it becomes a reliable double 185; last time we had the 2tph Manchester-Leeds-York in 2021 it wasn’t reliably a double, and it was carnage whenever a single 185 turned up.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Oct 2023 ==

the Saltburn extension could be withdrawn, how practicable would it be to redeploy the units and traincrew saved to places where they are more needed?

Probably wouldn’t be possible to redeploy as Saltburn-Airport is self-contained, but it’d make it more likely that every train was a double 185.

 

[Mark Teesside]

Sorry if I’m asking in the wrong place but does anybody know why the 1844 from Manchester Airport to Saltburn is diverted to Darlington from the timetable change in December leaving York- Middlesbrough with a random 2 hour gap in an otherwise hourly service? Similarly on Sundays the first train of the day from Middlesbrough is diverted to start from Darlington. Thanks in advance for any information on this.

 

[Bikeman78]

agreed -

As and aside are there really enough 185's to run all trains as double sets?

Short answer: no. The link to the diagrams in another thread shows single 185s running, mainly to Cleethorpes. Only one single on the Saltburn route. 46 out of 51 units required.

 

[DarloRich]

Short answer: no. The link to the diagrams in another thread shows single 185s running, main to Cleethorpes. Only one single on the Saltburn route. 46 out of 51 units required.

thanks - not much flex in the fleet for any unexpected issues

 

[Chester1]

Would it be practical for TPE to run double 802 sets at some point? They can't fit at Manchester Airport or Oxford Road but could they run on Liverpool to Newcastle? Would it require guards in both sets?

I would prefer fewer longer trains in Manchester than a return to the current (rather theoretical) timetable or the pre pandemic timetable. I know higher frequency is better for attracting passengers but the Manchester problems of the last six years are primarily due to trying to run too many trains over too many flat junctions.

 

[danbarjon]

Would it be practical for TPE to run double 802 sets at some point? They can't fit at Manchester Airport or Oxford Road but could they run on Liverpool to Newcastle? Would it require guards in both sets?

I would prefer fewer longer trains in Manchester than a return to the current (rather theoretical) timetable or the pre pandemic timetable. I know higher frequency is better for attracting passengers but the Manchester problems of the last six years are primarily due to trying to run too many trains over too many flat junctions.

I would like this as I think it would be great for capacity especially if they could connect 1 cancelled train to the next one that would be still running.