Problems with Railcard App- Now being prosecuted- What to do?

[Deerfold]

Take a screenshot of the Railcard (if on iOS) or a photograph using another device, and print that?

I'd have probably tried to find someone with a printer, but...

I don’t own a printer, hence this was the best I could do.

 

[lookapigeon]

If you don't have a printer at home, it's not necessarily a barrier to getting something printed. Someone you know (friend, relation etc) will probably have one.

Alternatively there's libraries, printing shops, internet cafes all offer printing facilities at cost (even your work place if you can get away with it/are allowed).

Email / transfer the file of the screenshot or photo to your computer, put it in a word file and onto a USB. Go to one of the above places and get a printout.

Or just even head to one of the photo printing places and get a print on photo paper.

You should really throw all you can to get your paperwork in.

 

[crablab]

not a ... malfunctioning app – you committed an offence.

Surely you're not suggesting that a malfunctioning app, where the passenger has taken all reasonable steps such as adding their Railcard prior to travel, checking it was in date on the app before boarding, and keeping the device & app up to date, should render the passenger liable?

I'm aware it's a strict liability offence.

 

[island]

Surely you're not suggesting that a malfunctioning app, where the passenger has taken all reasonable steps such as adding their Railcard prior to travel, checking it was in date on the app before boarding, and keeping the device & app up to date, should render the passenger liable?

I'm aware it's a strict liability offence.

What I have written, I have written.

 

[Deerfold]

Surely you're not suggesting that a malfunctioning app, where the passenger has taken all reasonable steps such as adding their Railcard prior to travel, checking it was in date on the app before boarding, and keeping the device & app up to date, should render the passenger liable?

I'm aware it's a strict liability offence.

It shouldn't. But if a company chooses to prosecute, the law appears to be in their favour.

 

[fandroid]

It shouldn't. But if a company chooses to prosecute, the law appears to be in their favour.

A law drafted well before the invention of smartphones, apps and digital Railcards

 

[mikeg]

Surely you're not suggesting that a malfunctioning app, where the passenger has taken all reasonable steps such as adding their Railcard prior to travel, checking it was in date on the app before boarding, and keeping the device & app up to date, should render the passenger liable?

I'm aware it's a strict liability offence.

Did the passenger check beforehand and the app fail whilst on the train?

Byelaw 18(1)

1. in any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel

If so I would argue the passenger had entered the train for the purpose of traveling with a valid ticket entitling him to travel.
Furthermore:

Byelaw 18(2)

1. a person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person

Which the OP did, the ticket does not need to be a valid one, I'm reminded of the Burns v First Capital Connect case here.

I do not wish to give the OP false hope however... IANAL

 

[richw]

Can I clarify from others, does the railcard app actually require data or WiFi to load the railcard for inspection?
If it does I can’t see how they can have any grounds for prosecuting due to it not loading.
On my regular 60 min journey, there is no mobile signal for around half the journey, and for a majority of that signal Blackspot the train wifi doesn’t work neither.
A railcard app that requires internet to show the card isn’t fit for purpose

 

[Wethebest838]

Can I clarify from others, does the railcard app actually require data or WiFi to load the railcard for inspection?
If it does I can’t see how they can have any grounds for prosecuting due to it not loading.

Just tested with my one from Trainline on airplane mode, it loads fine without data or WiFi. From what I recall from checks on past journeys when I use to use the railcard app, it loads regardless.

 

[Deerfold]

A law drafted well before the invention of smartphones, apps and digital Railcards

It was. That doesn't change it.

 

[ac6000cw]

Can I clarify from others, does the railcard app actually require data or WiFi to load the railcard for inspection?
If it does I can’t see how they can have any grounds for prosecuting due to it not loading.
On my regular 60 min journey, there is no mobile signal for around half the journey, and for a majority of that signal Blackspot the train wifi doesn’t work neither.
A railcard app that requires internet to show the card isn’t fit for purpose

No, it doesn't - the railcard.co.uk app should work offline provided it's been able to connect to the internet in the preceding 72 hours (I use it myself for a Senior Railcard). Below is info copied from the FAQ section for it - https://www.railcard.co.uk/managing-your-digital-railcard/#more-faqs :

What happens if I don’t have reception or I am offline?​

Railcard are available offline for a period of up to 72 hours. The Railcard app on your device will continue to show your digital Railcard as long as your mobile device has connected to the internet at some point within the last 72 hours. However, you will need an internet connection to buy your digital Railcard or add it to a new device.

What happens if I have no battery life or can’t show my Railcard?​

If you don’t have any battery life, or have forgotten your device, it won't be possible to check that your Railcard discount is valid. You could be asked to buy a single ticket for your journey, or be issued with a Penalty Fare.

If you do get caught out while travelling, you can make one claim a year to be refunded for any extra fare or penalty you incur.

 

[richw]

No, it doesn't - the railcard.co.uk app should work offline provided it's been able to connect to the internet in the preceding 72 hours (I use it myself for a Senior Railcard). Below is info copied from the FAQ section for it - https://www.railcard.co.uk/managing-your-digital-railcard/#more-faqs :

This might be relevant to the OP for the future. Too late now but it seems where he fell foul.

 

[Haywain]

No, it doesn't - the railcard.co.uk app should work offline provided it's been able to connect to the internet in the preceding 72 hours (I use it myself for a Senior Railcard).

Does the app need to be open during that 72 hours?

 

[island]

I'm reminded of the Burns v First Capital Connect case here.

I can't seem to look this up but my (potentially faulty) memory is that Burns vs FCC was decided upon the fact that the train company did not prove that they had asked the passenger to produce a ticket, as opposed to whether that ticket needed to be valid or not.

We really, really do need the OP to come back and post a copy of the paperwork so that we can understand what they are being prosecuted for.

 

[mikeg]

I can't seem to look this up but my (potentially faulty) memory is that Burns vs FCC was decided upon the fact that the train company did not prove that they had asked the passenger to produce a ticket, as opposed to whether that ticket needed to be valid or not.

We really, really do need the OP to come back and post a copy of the paperwork so that we can understand what they are being prosecuted for.

Maybe I've quoted the wrong case. My potentially faulty memory seems to recall a byelaw 18.2 case in which it was decided that the passenger had handed over his ticket and although strictly invalid the fact he'd handed over his ticket satisfied this byelaw. IIRC the Burns case involved an Oyster PAYG card with insufficient credit, but the fact he'd handed it over was sufficient. However a byelaw 18.1 case would've likely stuck.

I also agree we really need to know from the OP what offence is being alleged.

 

[ac6000cw]

Does the app need to be open during that 72 hours?

I don't know for sure, but (as an Android user, don't know about Apple), most apps stay in the background after being opened (unless you force them to quit). Looking at the historical data usage of the Railcard app on my phone, its background data usage is typically a few hundred kilobytes per month so I assume it's periodically checking the railcard status in the background.

Personally I open the app and check it's displaying the Railcard before I get on the train, just like I used to check I had my paper railcard with me in the past.

 

[Gonzoiku]

Maybe I've quoted the wrong case. My potentially faulty memory seems to recall a byelaw 18.2 case in which it was decided that the passenger had handed over his ticket and although strictly invalid the fact he'd handed over his ticket satisfied this byelaw. IIRC the Burns case involved an Oyster PAYG card with insufficient credit, but the fact he'd handed it over was sufficient. However a byelaw 18.1 case would've likely stuck.

I also agree we really need to know from the OP what offence is being alleged.

You have quoted the right case and your recollection is correct. Prosecution and conviction under 18 (2) thrown out, costs awarded to the defendant (appellant).

GZ

 

[Deerfold]

A law drafted well before the invention of smartphones, apps and digital Railcards

The last major review was 2005, the list minor update 2011.

 

[Richardr]

https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2012/1305.html for details of the case quoted.

 

[scrapy]

It may be worth the OP writing to GTR and explaining the difficulties they are having sending their Railcard. They should also ask that due to their disability if a reasonable adjustment could be made by allowing them to bring the phone in person with the Railcard on to the presecutions office or to have it verified at a ticket office. The OP should also have an email confirmation of purchasing the Railcard. I would be tempted to forward that onto GTR. If you don't have email contact details, then contact customer services and ask for them.

If this fails, I would be tempted to attend court with the Railcard and ask to speak directly with the prosecution team before the case is heard. Again the Railcard could be shown and whilst not guaranteed there is a strong possibility the case would be dropped.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Oct 2023 ==

Maybe I've quoted the wrong case. My potentially faulty memory seems to recall a byelaw 18.2 case in which it was decided that the passenger had handed over his ticket and although strictly invalid the fact he'd handed over his ticket satisfied this byelaw. IIRC the Burns case involved an Oyster PAYG card with insufficient credit, but the fact he'd handed it over was sufficient. However a byelaw 18.1 case would've likely stuck.

I also agree we really need to know from the OP what offence is being alleged.

I don't think any of this is any help to the OP.

 

[rs101]

Does the app need to be open during that 72 hours?

Possibly - not the most helpful answer, but some devices will suspend apps which aren't used, so if the railcard app hasn't been opened for a while, it may have been put to sleep and stopped refreshing.

Just checked the app on my Android device (in airplane mode and app hasn't been used for a while) and it did have an up to date railcard.

 

[Deerfold]

Possibly - not the most helpful answer, but some devices will suspend apps which aren't used, so if the railcard app hasn't been opened for a while, it may have been put to sleep and stopped refreshing.

Just checked the app on my Android device (in airplane mode and app hasn't been used for a while) and it did have an up to date railcard.

I've not caught a train in the UK for a couple of weeks. My Android phone has been turned off and on again half a dozen times in that time. Just popped it in Airplane mode and opened the Railcard app. It worked fine.

 

[rs101]

I've not caught a train in the UK for a couple of weeks. My Android phone has been turned off and on again half a dozen times in that time. Just popped it in Airplane mode and opened the Railcard app. It worked fine.

I think the issue will be if you don't open the app for a few months - then Android may disable it so it doesn't get updated any more. I've had that happen with 3 of the 6 different parking apps I use from time to time. Then it's a case of enabling and updating before they'll work.

 

[island]

I've not caught a train in the UK for a couple of weeks. My Android phone has been turned off and on again half a dozen times in that time. Just popped it in Airplane mode and opened the Railcard app. It worked fine.

Did you open a Railcard, or just the app?

I think the issue will be if you don't open the app for a few months - then Android may disable it so it doesn't get updated any more. I've had that happen with 3 of the 6 different parking apps I use from time to time. Then it's a case of enabling and updating before they'll work.

The Railcard app will temporarily suspend a digital Railcard if it has not been able to "phone home" to the server in the last 72 hours. This is a security measure so that Railcards can be blocked in the case of, for example, a credit card payment being dishonoured/charged back.

I only use physical Railcards, so I don't know if this "phoning home" takes place in the background or only when the app is opened.

 

[fandroid]

Did you open a Railcard, or just the app?

The Railcard app will temporarily suspend a digital Railcard if it has not been able to "phone home" to the server in the last 72 hours. This is a security measure so that Railcards can be blocked in the case of, for example, a credit card payment being dishonoured/charged back.

Remember that the OP had explained in their first post that their dad had disabled the mobile data function on the phone. It's conceivably possible that the phone hadn't connected to a server recently because of that. It's also possible, even if the OP had tried to revive the Railcard app just before boarding, that it wouldn't have succeeded if the phone wasn't connected to wifi.
Something for the OP to bear in mind for future journeys

 

[Deerfold]

Did you open a Railcard, or just the app?

The Railcard app will temporarily suspend a digital Railcard if it has not been able to "phone home" to the server in the last 72 hours. This is a security measure so that Railcards can be blocked in the case of, for example, a credit card payment being dishonoured/charged back.

I only use physical Railcards, so I don't know if this "phoning home" takes place in the background or only when the app is opened.

I opened the app and then my Railcard within the app - otherwise I wouldn't have known if it had worked fine.