Problems with Railcard App- Now being prosecuted- What to do?

[Smudge81]

I have a disabled persons railcard and the last 3 of my railcards have been digital ones on an app, not physical cards. I have autism which is why I have the railcard as well as severe anxiety. My dad set my phone to not allow downloads when the phone is not connected to Wifi because I was wasting so much data and here is where the problem starts.
I have found that the railcard app sometimes doesn't automatically update and often freezes. I boarded a train from King's Cross to Luton and bought the disabled railcard fare as I always do and along comes a fare inspector. She asked to see my railcard. I explained to her that the card is on an app but when I went to show her, the app had frozen. The wifi on that route never works and there is never any data signal (in any case, I don't even know how to undo the setting on my phone which disallows downloads whilst using mobile data).

I explained to the inspector that I couldn't refresh the app because I couldn't connect to the wifi and she just said "it works, I don't believe you". Her manner was very aggressive which made the situation worse as I got very panicked. I got cautioned, and received a letter from Thameslink giving notice of their intention to prosecute. I replied to them with the railcard serial number and expiry date and explained what had happened. I heard nothing more until around a month later when I received a letter from the Magistrate's Court saying that they are going ahead with a prosecution. I replied with the same explanation that I gave Thameslink including details of my railcard and the expiry date. Every lawyer I have spoken to wants at least £1k to help with this and I now potentially face ending up with a criminal record and a huge fine. The court appearance is in December and I am honestly losing sleep about this as I am so worried? What should I do? I am terrified.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Welcome to the forum!

I don't have a sure-fire answer to this, but a number of thoughts that you might want to pursue:
- do you have a support worker or counsellor or similar who you can discuss things with? They may be able to point you in the direction of support
- how much will a criminal record be a problem for you? People tend to over-estimate how much of a problem it will be, in that most employers (and people who organise volunteers) will want to know about a criminal record - but as long as it's nothing too serious and not part of a pattern of offending, it won't generally stop you being employed/volunteering/etc.
- similarly, while no one wants to pay a fine, it will be substantial but not huge. The fine is based on your income, and on top of that there are court fees and so on, but in round terms the total is likely to be about £500.

So you may decide that the best thing to do is let the process go through and accept the punishment.

However, on the basis of what you have told us, this is a case that you could fight. To start with, get your dad to put in writing what he has done to your phone and why. Also, try and find the document that confirms that your autism entitles you to a disabled person's railcard. Then write again to Thameslink asking them to not prosecute you because of the reasons that you are putting forward <edit> including the statement from your dad and confirmation of your autism</edit>. If you send this as a letter rather than an email, I would suggest sending it using one of their tracked services so you can be certain that the letter has got to them*

I would hope that once they know that your story is true, they will recognise this and withdraw the prosecution. If not, then you may want to go to outside the court system and involve your MP in that this doesn't feel like Thameslink treating you fairly.

And as the digital railcard doesn't seem to work too well for you, it may be worth thinking about whether a physical card is the way to go in future. It may not be your first choice of how to do things, but if it works better then that may be a compromise worth making.

*A note here for regular contributors - I think that it may be that the OP's original letter didn't get to GTR, because they're generally quite good at settling with people who engage. Hence the advice to send it tracked.

(edited to include extra remark, and correct a couple of typos)

 

[Haywain]

The wifi on that route never works and there is never any data signal

Not all Thameslink trains have wifi, but once you are past West Hampstead heading towards Luton the mobile data is generally pretty good.

What should I do? I am terrified.

It would be helpful to us if you could post copies of the letters from GTR and the reply that you sent, but you should ensure that any identifying information is not visible).

*A note here for regular contributors - I think that it may be that the OP's original letter didn't get to GTR, because they're generally quote good at settling with people who engage.

That is a possibility, but another is that the letter did not appropriately address the issue.

 

[fandroid]

Just to address a small point. I don't think that the reply to the magistrate's court on its own can stop the prosecution going ahead. They might dismiss the case, once they see all the evidence, but stopping the prosecution depends on engaging with the train company, GTR.

To get them to acknowledge the existence of a valid Railcard, does it need more than just sending them the serial number and expiry date? Would an image of the card be needed too?

 

[Haywain]

They might dismiss the case, once they see all the evidence,

This is very unlikely.

 

[gray1404]

You were basically unable to produce your Railcard when required regardless of the reasons. You are entitled to forget your Railcard or be unable to produce it once per year without penalty. This is on the condition that you provide the train company with a copy of it afterwards. Have you provided the train company with a screenshot of your rail card from the app once you were able to get on?

I would be doing two things at this point. I would be getting back in touch with the train company providing them with another copy of the railcard (or indeed a first copy if all I provided them with previously was a serial number) and asking that they drop the case because you are allowed to forget your rail card once per year.

I would plea not guilty to the court. My reason for this would be that there is provision under the National Rail Conditions of Travel to be able to provide a copy of my railcard later once per year. And I would be evidencing in court that I have done this yet the train company have not kept their side of the contract.

You need to make sure that for all future rail journeys you are able to produce the rail card on demand without exception.

I am actually very surprised by your situation because we have seen examples of GTR getting in touch with people who have provided a copy of their railcard and then that's been the end of the matter.

 

[Class800]

I have a disabled persons railcard and the last 3 of my railcards have been digital ones on an app, not physical cards. I have autism which is why I have the railcard as well as severe anxiety. My dad set my phone to not allow downloads when the phone is not connected to Wifi because I was wasting so much data and here is where the problem starts.
I have found that the railcard app sometimes doesn't automatically update and often freezes. I boarded a train from King's Cross to Luton and bought the disabled railcard fare as I always do and along comes a fare inspector. She asked to see my railcard. I explained to her that the card is on an app but when I went to show her, the app had frozen. The wifi on that route never works and there is never any data signal (in any case, I don't even know how to undo the setting on my phone which disallows downloads whilst using mobile data).

I explained to the inspector that I couldn't refresh the app because I couldn't connect to the wifi and she just said "it works, I don't believe you". Her manner was very aggressive which made the situation worse as I got very panicked. I got cautioned, and received a letter from Thameslink giving notice of their intention to prosecute. I replied to them with the railcard serial number and expiry date and explained what had happened. I heard nothing more until around a month later when I received a letter from the Magistrate's Court saying that they are going ahead with a prosecution. I replied with the same explanation that I gave Thameslink including details of my railcard and the expiry date. Every lawyer I have spoken to wants at least £1k to help with this and I now potentially face ending up with a criminal record and a huge fine. The court appearance is in December and I am honestly losing sleep about this as I am so worried? What should I do? I am terrified.

This is awful isn't it. I can't really help other than say I've also got autism and really think there's a major issue about individual staff and companies disregarding the equality act including reasonable adjustment clauses. I'd be inclined to make a complaint about this, but not sure it will directly help the issue. All I can hope is the Judge will be aware of the other relevant laws and throw it out. I'm not so hopeful

 

[island]

I got cautioned, and received a letter from Thameslink giving notice of their intention to prosecute. I replied to them with the railcard serial number and expiry date and explained what had happened. I heard nothing more until around a month later when I received a letter from the Magistrate's Court saying that they are going ahead with a prosecution. I replied with the same explanation that I gave Thameslink including details of my railcard and the expiry date. Every lawyer I have spoken to wants at least £1k to help with this and I now potentially face ending up with a criminal record and a huge fine. The court appearance is in December and I am honestly losing sleep about this as I am so worried? What should I do? I am terrified.

We definitely need to see copies of all the documents in the matter, these are:

1. Any ticket, receipt, or paper you were given by the inspector on the day
2. The letter you received from Thameslink
3. A copy of the reply you sent
4. The letter you received from the Magistrates Court.

Please cover any personal information.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

This is awful isn't it. I can't really help other than say I've also got autism and really think there's a major issue about individual staff and companies disregarding the equality act including reasonable adjustment clauses.

It's using the wrong words, but basically its unfortunate that the sunflower lanyard was basically hijacked as a mask exemption rather than its intended use as a hidden disability flag for staff,

Now a lot of staff won't even stop to think when they see it and assume its no longer relevant, in this situation, if one was being worn it could have triggered a completely different cconversational outcome

 

[island]

I would plea not guilty to the court. My reason for this would be that there is provision under the National Rail Conditions of Travel to be able to provide a copy of my railcard later once per year.

But the OP didn't provide a copy of their railcard, they provided a "serial number and expiry date". These are not the same thing.

And I would be evidencing in court that I have done this yet the train company have not kept their side of the contract.

The concession for forgetting your Railcard once a year is an exercise of the railway's discretion; it is not a "contract" – and the OP didn't keep up their "side" anyway.

 

[gray1404]

I'm not sure I agree with you that it's at their discretion.

 

[island]

I'm not sure I agree with you that it's at their discretion.

You’re welcome to that view. In any case, whether it is or not isn’t relevant to this thread since the OP did not in any event send a copy of their Railcard, so I don’t propose to go into it further.

 

[WesternLancer]

I think the OP could do with help drafting another letter to Thameslink that sets the situation out as clearly as possible and asking them to re-consider the case in the light of having a disabled persons Railcard (and enclosing a copy of it and also perhaps details of their disability that meant they were entitled to it) - ending up with a request to Thameslink asking them if they will consider now withdrawing the prosecution.

@Smudge81 - I suspect this may be a case of Thameslink possibly not even having got the letter you say that was sent (do you have any proof eg was it sent signed for post for example?)

 

[Haywain]

All I can hope is the Judge will be aware of the other relevant laws and throw it out.

There would have to be a defence in court for that to happen, and it's not obvious to me that the law around discrimination is an automatic defence against a criminal prosecution.

 

[gray1404]

You’re welcome to that view. In any case, whether it is or not isn’t relevant to this thread since the OP did not in any event send a copy of their Railcard, so I don’t propose to go into it further.

With regards to this case though I do definitely think it is still worth the OP raising this forgotten railcard policy with GTR and providing them with a copy of the rail card.

 

[WesternLancer]

With regards to this case though I do definitely think it is still worth the OP raising this forgotten railcard policy with GTR and providing them with a copy of the rail card.

It seems to me that this is the easiest and most straightforward action for the OP to take now, and ASAP - letting it go to court and hoping for the best without an (expensive) legal defence would seem not the greatest idea when there is still time and scope to try and get Thameslink to look at it all again.

There can be nothing to lose by doing this now, surely.

 

[Haywain]

With regards to this case though I do definitely think it is still worth the OP raising this forgotten railcard policy with GTR and providing them with a copy of the rail card.

To be honest, without seeing the correspondence that has already passed between the parties, we can't give realistic advice.

 

[jumble]

You’re welcome to that view. In any case, whether it is or not isn’t relevant to this thread since the OP did not in any event send a copy of their Railcard, so I don’t propose to go into it further.

I struggle to understand exactly how the OP could send a copy of their digital railcard .

 

[MrJeeves]

I struggle to understand exactly how the OP could send a copy of their digital railcard .

This was going to be my exact question.

The official railcard app blocks screenshots being taken, too.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm not sure I agree with you that it's at their discretion.

The policy is merely that you are able to claim back the expense of a Penalty Fare or additional fare if it is forgotten.

It is not a right to travel without a railcard and be immune from prosecution/MG11 at an inspector's discretion.

Even so, I agree it is best to engage with GTR and write again, enclosing details of the railcard. It is likely this didn't reach them the last time.

 

[skyhigh]

The official railcard app blocks screenshots being taken, too.

Only on Android. And even then, you could take a photo of the screen on a different device, or place the phone screen down on a scanner.

 

[MrJeeves]

Only on Android. And even then, you could take a photo of the screen on a different device, or place the phone screen down on a scanner.

All a bit ridiculous when the TOCs can easily validate a Railcard by its number...

 

[skyhigh]

All a bit ridiculous when the TOCs can easily validate a Railcard by its number...

I suspect the issue here is that the reply was never received by the TOC, not that the evidence supplied was insufficient, however.

 

[MrJeeves]

I suspect the issue here is that the reply was never received by the TOC, not that the evidence supplied was insufficient, however.

Indeed, but those saying that sending details of a digital Railcard isn't enough evidence to prove you own one is ridiculous.

 

[Hadders]

Let's keep this thread on topic rather than drifting in speculative discussion that is unhelpful to the OP

GTR are generally a very pragmatic train company when it comes to dealing with this sort of thing and a case of someone not having railcard, let alone being unable to produce a railcard they do possess, doesn't normally end up in the Magistrates Court. This leads me to suggest that GTR didn't receive the initial reply from @Smudge81

We could do with seeing copies of all correspondence (with personal details and case reference numbers covered).

As for what the OP should do next, if it were me I would contact GTR Prosecutions Office as a matter of urgency to establish whether or not they received the initial reply and details of the Disabled Persons Railcard. If they didn't receive the reply then I would expect GTR to withdraw the summons on receipt of the information.

We could do with knowing exactly what you have said in reply to the summons - have you entered a plea, if so what have you said?

 

[Smudge81]

I struggle to understand exactly how the OP could send a copy of their digital railcard .

This was the problem - the reply form contained no email address so I could not send a screenshot. I don’t own a printer, hence this was the best I could do. I have subsequently emailed it directly to the prosecutor’s team via customer services but no response. I have also complained, no response.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2023 ==

Let's keep this thread on topic rather than drifting in speculative discussion that is unhelpful to the OP

GTR are generally a very pragmatic train company when it comes to dealing with this sort of thing and a case of someone not having railcard, let alone being unable to produce a railcard they do possess, doesn't normally end up in the Magistrates Court. This leads me to suggest that GTR didn't receive the initial reply from @Smudge81

We could do with seeing copies of all correspondence (with personal details and case reference numbers covered).

As for what the OP should do next, if it were me I would contact GTR Prosecutions Office as a matter of urgency to establish whether or not they received the initial reply and details of the Disabled Persons Railcard. If they didn't receive the reply then I would expect GTR to withdraw the summons on receipt of the information.

We could do with knowing exactly what you have said in reply to the summons - have you entered a plea, if so what have you said?

This is also my suspicion as it was not sent via recorded mail. I have subsequently sent a copy of the railcard by email to Thameslink as well as details of exactly what happened.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2023 ==

This was the problem - the reply form contained no email address so I could not send a screenshot. I don’t own a printer, hence this was the best I could do. I have subsequently emailed it directly to the prosecutor’s team via customer services but no response. I have also complained, no response.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2023 ==


This is also my suspicion as it was not sent via recorded mail. I have subsequently sent a copy of the railcard by email to Thameslink as well as details of exactly what happened.

I pleaded not guilty as I didn’t board the train without a railcard- I simply couldn’t refresh the app.

 

[island]

I pleaded not guilty as I didn’t board the train without a railcard- I simply couldn’t refresh the app.

Unfortunately, if you had a Railcard discounted ticket and did not have a Railcard – an actual Railcard, not a purchase confirmation, reference number, or malfunctioning app – you committed an offence.

 

[Smudge81]

You’re welcome to that view. In any case, whether it is or not isn’t relevant to this thread since the OP did not in any event send a copy of their Railcard, so I don’t propose to go into it further.

How am I supposed to send a copy of a digital railcard to a postal address? There was no email address on the reply form?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2023 ==

It seems to me that this is the easiest and most straightforward action for the OP to take now, and ASAP - letting it go to court and hoping for the best without an (expensive) legal defence would seem not the greatest idea when there is still time and scope to try and get Thameslink to look at it all again.

There can be nothing to lose by doing this now, surely.

I have emailed the prosecutors team explaining all of this but just got an auto reply saying that the email address cannot be used for appeals. I am now going to write to them and send it via recorded post.

 

[island]

How am I supposed to send a copy of a digital railcard to a postal address? There was no email address on the reply form?

Take a screenshot of the Railcard (if on iOS) or a photograph using another device, and print that?

 

[Smudge81]

Welcome to the forum!

I don't have a sure-fire answer to this, but a number of thoughts that you might want to pursue:
- do you have a support worker or counsellor or similar who you can discuss things with? They may be able to point you in the direction of support
- how much will a criminal record be a problem for you? People tend to over-estimate how much of a problem it will be, in that most employers (and people who organise volunteers) will want to know about a criminal record - but as long as it's nothing too serious and not part of a pattern of offending, it won't generally stop you being employed/volunteering/etc.
- similarly, while no one wants to pay a fine, it will be substantial but not huge. The fine is based on your income, and on top of that there are court fees and so on, but in round terms the total is likely to be about £500.

So you may decide that the best thing to do is let the process go through and accept the punishment.

However, on the basis of what you have told us, this is a case that you could fight. To start with, get your dad to put in writing what he has done to your phone and why. Also, try and find the document that confirms that your autism entitles you to a disabled person's railcard. Then write again to Thameslink asking them to not prosecute you because of the reasons that you are putting forward <edit> including the statement from your dad and confirmation of your autism</edit>. If you send this as a letter rather than an email, I would suggest sending it using one of their tracked services so you can be certain that the letter has got to them*

I would hope that once they know that your story is true, they will recognise this and withdraw the prosecution. If not, then you may want to go to outside the court system and involve your MP in that this doesn't feel like Thameslink treating you fairly.

And as the digital railcard doesn't seem to work too well for you, it may be worth thinking about whether a physical card is the way to go in future. It may not be your first choice of how to do things, but if it works better then that may be a compromise worth making.

*A note here for regular contributors - I think that it may be that the OP's original letter didn't get to GTR, because they're generally quite good at settling with people who engage. Hence the advice to send it tracked.

(edited to include extra remark, and correct a couple of typos)

Thank you, I will do this ASAP