Major Fire at Luton Airport (10/10/23)

[Bald Rick]

Only to access the T1 car park which wasn't affected by the fire other than that it was normally accessed via the T2 car park which was the one that caught fire. That is now operating as normal, presumably with a bloke stood by the temporary entrance checking bookings.

Ahhhh, my confusion, sorry.

 

[Russel]

Seeing a lot of comments on social media about this being started by an EV and the diesel Range Rover is just being used as a cover up by the fire service etc..

It seems people really want to blame EV's.

Do people really believe these conspiracies?

 

[Haywain]

It seems people really want to blame EV's.

Some people = the tin foil hat brigade.

 

[Russel]

Some people = the tin foil hat brigade.

Indeed, it's just surprising how many people seem to buy into it!

 

[skyhigh]

It seems people really want to blame EV's.

See post 3!

 

[MotCO]

Initially I wondered if an EV caused it, but am happy to accept that it was caused by a diesel car. However, if there were any EV cars in the conflagration, they would be more difficult to extinguish and could extend the time the car park was ablaze.

 

[Darandio]

Initially I wondered if an EV caused it, but am happy to accept that it was caused by a diesel car. However, if there were any EV cars in the conflagration, they would be more difficult to extinguish and could extend the time the car park was ablaze.

With the sheer amount of cars involved there surely must have been quite a number of EV's.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With the sheer amount of cars involved there surely must have been quite a number of EV's.

Particularly as it was a premium car park costing around fifty quid a day, so probably quite a few Teslas. The mid-stay and long-stay (and Airparks at Slip End) are the budget options.

 

[Bald Rick]

Particularly as it was a premium car park costing around fifty quid a day, so probably quite a few Teslas. The mid-stay and long-stay (and Airparks at Slip End) are the budget options.

Youll only be paying £50 a day if you book very late. Even turning up and paying on the day its £67.50/day, and very few people will pay that or close to it. Current prices are a little mixed up because of the reduced capacity, but if you book a couple of weeks out you can expect to pay £28/day or thereabouts in the Multi Storey, and £20/ day mid stay.

 

[Mikw]

Seeing a lot of comments on social media about this being started by an EV and the diesel Range Rover is just being used as a cover up by the fire service etc..

It seems people really want to blame EV's.

Do people really believe these conspiracies?

Unfortunately so, the conspiracy narrative is popular. Those that systems, and life, lets down are looking for answers in anything. They've been told by dodgy internet influencers, and politicians. that that the mainstream media is lying to them, when in actuality, the influencers and politicians are far more likely to be lying.
Trumpsters, and even our own ruling party, like to play to this crowd, and some of the newer TV and radio stations do to.
It's a real destabiliser, and the perfect environment for extremism

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2023 ==

With the sheer amount of cars involved there surely must have been quite a number of EV's.

No doubt. However there's been fires in multistorey car parks before with similar results, from times before Ev's were widespread, there's a lot of accelerant, crammed in against each other, and draughts to fan any flames, or worse.

 

[jon0844]

I am truly shocked that even now a week or so on, there are still loads of conspiracy theorists insisting that it was an EV that went up, and the Range Rover was either not on fire, or sat in front of the car that was, or it is some deep-fake video because how could anyone happen to be there at the time it was on fire? The plate shown in the video is not of the car, etc etc etc.

The profiles of these people show they are also talking mostly about the Covid vaccine, 5G, Joe Biden, global elites and so on - so it's just another thing that they've connected as part of this whole new world order thing. They know all about it, yet seem unable to tell us what else is part of the plan until something happens they can connect. Maybe they're just making it up as they go on.

Apparently the fire service is in on it because the Government controls them, and the Government wants everyone to buy EVs and so has to hide all the EV fires happening all the time (is this the same Government that is now more pro-oil than ever?).

Oh, and diesel doesn't explode. Loads of comments about putting a match in diesel and it not burning, ergo it can't catch fire. (It can, and there are demonstrations of it doing so, the only true bit being a match won't instantly light the fuel - you need to increase the temperature sufficiently first).

I had a lady on Facebook tell me that EVs are on fire all the time but we're just not being told. Her local shopping centre nearly burned down just a few weeks ago, apparently because of an EV in the car park going up. When I enquired how this hadn't made the news and asked for more information, I was blocked. Funny that.

The irony is that if it HAD been an EV battery that had got to thermal runaway, the incident could have been a lot more serious because there would have been a lot less time to get away (the Range Rover had people attempting to put the fire out for a bit). There IS a genuine concern for EV batteries, and Lithium batteries in general, but this isn't the time.

No doubt the data from the insurance industry that reports on the type of vehicle fires, and shows that per 100,000 fires EVs are the least likely involved, is part of the big conspiracy too.

It never ends.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh, and diesel doesn't explode. Loads of comments about putting a match in diesel and it not burning, ergo it can't catch fire. (It can, and there are demonstrations of it doing so, the only true bit being a match won't instantly light the fuel - you need to increase the temperature sufficiently first).

Primus stoves and Tilley lamps are a good example of this - you have to use meths to heat the tube supplying fuel to the burner to vaporise it into a gas before it will burn. Then it burns quite ferociously.

That and a plane crash, given that Jet A-1 is very similar to diesel and paraffin - when the fuel hits hot engine components it vaporises and you get a fireball.

Trouble is people don't use the former any more (other than enthusiasts) and most people probably think Jet A-1 and Avgas (the latter basically being petrol) are the same.

The irony is that if it HAD been an EV battery that had got to thermal runaway, the incident could have been a lot more serious because there would have been a lot less time to get away (the Range Rover had people attempting to put the fire out for a bit). There IS a genuine concern for EV batteries, and Lithium batteries in general, but this isn't the time.

I think to be fair there would have been some EVs in the fire, given that it was the premium car park, though there's nothing to suggest they affected its severity with any significance - similar car park fires have occurred and progressed similarly before EVs were even really a thing, notably the Liverpool example.

 

[John Webb]

.......Oh, and diesel doesn't explode. Loads of comments about putting a match in diesel and it not burning, ergo it can't catch fire. (It can, and there are demonstrations of it doing so, the only true bit being a match won't instantly light the fuel - you need to increase the temperature sufficiently first).....

In general I'd agree with your analysis re diesel fuel - but in diesel-powered vehicles the feed to the injectors is under high pressure and a small leak or slightly loose connection results in a fine spray of small droplets. If these hit a very hot object or a naked flame they will catch fire very easily - not an 'explosion' as such but a rapid spread through the fine spray droplets. Considerable problem if this occurs in a ship engine room with diesel engines running at higher pressures and larger amounts of fuel in use.....

 

[Bletchleyite]

In general I'd agree with your analysis re diesel fuel - but in cars the feed to the injectors is under high pressure and a small leak or slightly loose connection results in a fine spray of small droplets. If these hit a very hot object or a naked flame they will catch fire very easily - not an 'explosion' as such but a rapid spread through the fine spray droplets. Considerable problem if this occurs in a ship engine room with diesel engines.....

And a cloud of diesel vapour absolutely *can* explode (or do something that looks very much like an explosion even if it technically isn't one).

That said, there are enough videos of the initial car fire, and it was just a very intense fuel fire, not an explosion.

 

[trebor79]

Initially I wondered if an EV caused it, but am happy to accept that it was caused by a diesel car. However, if there were any EV cars in the conflagration, they would be more difficult to extinguish and could extend the time the car park was ablaze.

Actually the battery in most EVs is in a bath of coolant, and at least until the cars electronics are destroyed, if it gets warm the car will "wake up" and start actively cooling the battery. It's significantly less likely to be set alight than a car with 60l of petrol or diesel in a plastic fuel tank. Indeed I believe it was stated in the recent car ship fire that none of the EVs on board caught fire.

Oh, and diesel doesn't explode. Loads of comments about putting a match in diesel and it not burning, ergo it can't catch fire. (It can, and there are demonstrations of it doing so, the only true bit being a match won't instantly light the fuel - you need to increase the temperature sufficiently first).

Indeed, when I was a kid my friend lived on a farm. His dad let us have hug bonfires which was always lit using a paper sack soaked in diesel. I can remember once chucking a 20l can with a little bit of diesel in it on the fire for a laugh, it started boiling and then suddenly went "whooof" and shot the can about 50 feet. Great times!

The irony is that if it HAD been an EV battery that had got to thermal runaway, the incident could have been a lot more serious because there would have been a lot less time to get away (the Range Rover had people attempting to put the fire out for a bit). There IS a genuine concern for EV batteries, and Lithium batteries in general, but this isn't the time.

EV batteries are made to much better specifications than the rubbish in the likes of e-scooters etc. There are pyrofuses and other mechanisms that will prevent a thermal runaway should a fault develop. LiFePO batteries are used in some cars and these are chemically incapable of thermal runaway.
I've got zero concerns sitting my kids in either of our EVs.

 

[Merle Haggard]

There were certainly Diesel fuel vapour fires on HST power cars in the Paxman days, usually after idling for a long period. Cloud of (white) unburnt vaporised fuel from the exhaust eventually ignite. I've personally seen two, so it probably wasn't uncommon.
There were two solutions in the ones I witnessed - the first, when it happened below my office window, was the Fire Brigade turned up and pumped a ver large amount of foam into every roof opening, possibly incurring some damage and the second, at St Pancras, when the driver just opened up. - elementary chemistry, starves fire of oxygen (and also ejects the problem vertically ).
On the subject of EV fires - there have been severe ones caused by an electrical fault, but will a burning car nearby initiate the same effect? I thought it was more exothermic chemical reactions inside the battery, would there be sufficient localised heat to start one?

 

[Ediswan]

Primus stoves and Tilley lamps are a good example of this - you have to use meths to heat the tube supplying fuel to the burner to vaporise it into a gas before it will burn. Then it burns quite ferociously.

Not all of them. I have a Primus stove where the pre-heat system is pad of material, which acts as a wick. You squirt some ambient temperature liquid paraffin on to that pad and light it. It is the modern version of the old-fashioned standby of soaking toilet paper in paraffin.

 

[AM9]

In general I'd agree with your analysis re diesel fuel - but in diesel-powered vehicles the feed to the injectors is under high pressure and a small leak or slightly loose connection results in a fine spray of small droplets. If these hit a very hot object or a naked flame they will catch fire very easily - not an 'explosion' as such but a rapid spread through the fine spray droplets. Considerable problem if this occurs in a ship engine room with diesel engines running at higher pressures and larger amounts of fuel in use.....

Has everybody forgotten the Articulated Citaro fires nearly 20 years ago. ISTR that was put down to leakeges of high pressure lines.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Has everybody forgotten the Articulated Citaro fires nearly 20 years ago. ISTR that was put down to leakeges of high pressure lines.

Yea, and Mercedes boasted that they had sold 504 of them to London. Didn't make it clear that the odd 4 were replacement for fire losses due to a design feature allegedly (but did not include the 1 that ignited during delivery ....)

 

[The Ham]

I had a lady on Facebook tell me that EVs are on fire all the time but we're just not being told. Her local shopping centre nearly burned down just a few weeks ago, apparently because of an EV in the car park going up. When I enquired how this hadn't made the news and asked for more information, I was blocked. Funny that.

If (and I don't think this is the case) this fire (now remember how significant it was) is just one of many EV fires, then wouldn't there be significant fires wiping out multi storey car parks all the time? If there's not, why was this fire much more serious than the others? Maybe this EV was fully charged !?!?!?

(I don't expect an answer, and no I don't believe the last sentence either).

 

[Narrowgauge725]

If (and I don't think this is the case) this fire (now remember how significant it was) is just one of many EV fires, then wouldn't there be significant fires wiping out multi storey car parks all the time? If there's not, why was this fire much more serious than the others? Maybe this EV was fully charged !?!?!?

(I don't expect an answer, and no I don't believe the last sentence either).

So it was a diesel Range Rover, why are you still quoting EV fire?

 

[Busaholic]

Actually the battery in most EVs is in a bath of coolant, and at least until the cars electronics are destroyed, if it gets warm the car will "wake up" and start actively cooling the battery. It's significantly less likely to be set alight than a car with 60l of petrol or diesel in a plastic fuel tank. Indeed I believe it was stated in the recent car ship fire that none of the EVs on board caught fire.

Indeed, when I was a kid my friend lived on a farm. His dad let us have hug bonfires which was always lit using a paper sack soaked in diesel. I can remember once chucking a 20l can with a little bit of diesel in it on the fire for a laugh, it started boiling and then suddenly went "whooof" and shot the can about 50 feet. Great times!

EV batteries are made to much better specifications than the rubbish in the likes of e-scooters etc. There are pyrofuses and other mechanisms that will prevent a thermal runaway should a fault develop. LiFePO batteries are used in some cars and these are chemically incapable of thermal runaway.
I've got zero concerns sitting my kids in either of our EVs.

Not promulgating this as any sort of theory as to the source/cause of the fire, but I did wonder whether the Range Rover might have contained an e-scooter or e-bike.

 

[Haywain]

Not promulgating this as any sort of theory as to the source/cause of the fire, but I did wonder whether the Range Rover might have contained an e-scooter or e-bike.

What, under the bonnet? The fire looked pretty clearly to have started in the engine compartment.

 

[Busaholic]

What, under the bonnet? The fire looked pretty clearly to have started in the engine compartment.

I hadn't realised that, sorry.

 

[The Ham]

So it was a diesel Range Rover, why are you still quoting EV fire?

Please re-read what I said, I wasn't saying that this was an EV fire. As I started my sentence "If" and then within the brackets said that "I don't think this was the case" before saying "this was an EV fire". (IF this was - i.e. I don't think it was but I'm using this starting point to ask a question, an EV fire....).

The point I was trying to make was, given those who think it's a conspiracy and there's lots of EV fires being covered up, then why aren't there multi storey car parks falling down all the time?

Clearly they are not, so what's the reasoning at to why (by those who think EV fires are a problem - which I don't) this was so much worse than other cases?

 

[chiltern trev]

Would a concrete one have resisted the fire any better? Surely the fire spread upwards by going out of the open sides and up (a bit like it spread from flat to flat at Grenfell by going in the windows having melted the frames/cracked the glass and then setting the curtains on fire), and all car parks have open sides as otherwise ventilation can be expensive?

The Liverpool one was a concrete building and that was as bad.

A reinforced concrete structure will resist fire a lot better. The Liverpool fire did not result in a collapse as it was reinforced concrete - see link to Merseyside Fire Report in post #90. Also see Merseyside Fire Brigade comment that a steel structure would not pass the 15 minute fire test hence the Luton collapse. By comparison a reinforced concrete structure passed a 60 minute test without collapse.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Oct 2023 ==

All 1405 of them! Here's an image of the statement lifted from X (can't find a text version to copy and paste):
View attachment 144836
Image shows wordy statement from Luton Airport saying that 1405 cars are likely to be written off and Associaition of British Insurers are working with the airport.

There was a similar statement from Liverpool City Council after the Liverpool fire.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Oct 2023 ==

I wonder if any of the owners will be allowed access to the cars, to remove personal possessions from them, or is the structure too unsafe to ever allow public access?

Surface level car parks are a horrendous waste of space, but along with people feeling less safe in multi storeys, incidents like this fire also are show why people prefer them.

Re Liverpool - no owners were allowed access to any cars burnt out or not as structure declared unsafe.

Thus nearly all car owners lost all contents - a very few lucky ones were able to contact one of the salvage companies many weeks after and were able to gain their contents.

Even cars that were intact, i.e. not burnt out but maybe smoke damaged were subsequently damaged due to the removal process involved - grabbing by telehandler type devices and literally pulling/dragging out through remaining openings in the car park structure - so no tow outs or drive outs.

 

[JamesT]

Re Liverpool - no owners were allowed access to any cars burnt out or not as structure declared unsafe.

Thus nearly all car owners lost all contents - a very few lucky ones were able to contact one of the salvage companies many weeks after and were able to gain their contents.

Even cars that were intact, i.e. not burnt out but maybe smoke damaged were subsequently damaged due to the removal process involved - grabbing by telehandler type devices and literally pulling/dragging out through remaining openings in the car park structure - so no tow outs or drive outs.

It occurred to me, would being a steel structure make it any easier to dismantle it layer by layer, which might make retrieving the more intact cars easier? Or is that just going to be so much more complicated given the cars are already written off?

 

[trebor79]

I should think it'll be dismantled using a large excavator type machine fitted with hydraulic pincers on the end of the arm to chop the steel girders up. Same machine will probably be used to pick up and extract the vehicles. The structure has failed and what remains is going to be heat and smoke affected, with unknown loads imposed on the remaining structure that it wasn't designed for.
Basically, as per the Liverpool car park fire some years ago even the undamaged vehicles will be written off as the method of extraction with destroy them. It's just too dangerous to put people in there to try to recover vehciles.

 

[Lucan]

I have a Primus stove where the pre-heat system is pad of material, which acts as a wick. You squirt some ambient temperature liquid paraffin on to that pad and light it. It is the modern version of the old-fashioned standby of soaking toilet paper in paraffin.

The usual method of lighting a Tilley lamp is to use a cloth wick (used to be asbestos cloth) dipped in methylated spirit. This wick is in a small metal basket that clips around the fuel riser pipe just below the mantle. Sounds similar to your Primus stove, but are you sure you should be using paraffin in that wick rather than meths? I would think that paraffin would make things a bit sooty.

you have to use meths to heat the tube supplying fuel to the burner to vaporise it into a gas before it will burn

Paraffin burns fine without being vapourised. As kid with my regularly camping parents, it was my job to light the Primus stoves and the Tilley lamp, and I learned a lot about how paraffin burns. Open the valve too soon and there would be a "flare-up" of cold liquid paraffin burning - I could see the thin stream of it coming out of the jet nozzle. It could set the tent on fire but even as a 10 yo I learned to handle the situation - no 'elf & safety agonising in those days. These days, I ignite the garden bonfire with a piece of kitchen towel dipped in paraffin - works even when the weather is freezing.

 

[Ediswan]

The usual method of lighting a Tilley lamp is to use a cloth wick (used to be asbestos cloth) dipped in methylated spirit. This wick is in a small metal basket that clips around the fuel riser pipe just below the mantle. Sounds similar to your Primus stove, but are you sure you should be using paraffin in that wick rather than meths? I would think that paraffin would make things a bit sooty.

Absolutely sure. It is indeed sooty, but the soot soon burns off once the stove gets going.