Major Fire at Luton Airport (10/10/23)

[AndyPJG]

This image is apparently from yesterday. There aren't any EV Range Rovers and it looks like an older Evoque (which were full diesel).

View attachment 144637
(Image shows a car on fire, allegedly at Luton Airport)

I wonder if the Insurer of that first car to ignite would (theoretically?) be liable for all the consequential losses and costs?

Wasn't there a similar case a few years ago in Liverpool where 1,000+ cars got destroyed in a car park fire at an entertainment venue?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It's an old joke but:

Apparently there were fears that the fire could have spread to Luton town centre and caused millions of pounds worth of improvements.

(I live in Batley so I've no room to talk!)

 

[Crossover]

I wonder if the Insurer of that first car to ignite would (theoretically?) be liable for all the consequential losses and costs?

Wasn't there a similar case a few years ago in Liverpool where 1,000+ cars got destroyed in a car park fire at an entertainment venue?

My immediate thought when hearing about this was that it has a lot of hallmarks of the Liverpool fire, which occured on New Years Even 2017 (didn't realise it was so long ago to be honest!)

Liverpool Echo Arena car park fire photos released

Liverpool's mayor hits out at fire service budget cuts as photos from inside the multi-storey emerge.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[skyhigh]

They do have hybrids available, though?

There isn't a diesel plug in hybrid so the most it could have been is a mild hybrid which is essentially a small 48v battery capable of storing 200Wh of energy. It's completely different to an EV which might have as much as an 80kWh battery. The small battery on a mild hybrid will have had little effect on the size of the fire compared to environmental factors such as wind.

And that's assuming it was even a Hybrid in the first place.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Oct 2023 ==

I wonder if the Insurer of that first car to ignite would (theoretically?) be liable for all the consequential losses and costs?

Can't answer this but I imagine it could get messy - just checked my car insurance policy and the public liability is limited to £20million. Given the damage to vehicles, structure and flight cancellations I expect the costs to massively exceed that amount.

Then there's the question if the vehicle had a pre-existing fault, defect caused by a mechanic or something else which means the liability is shared with another partner.

 

[ac6000cw]

I wonder if the Insurer of that first car to ignite would (theoretically?) be liable for all the consequential losses and costs?

Wasn't there a similar case a few years ago in Liverpool where 1,000+ cars got destroyed in a car park fire at an entertainment venue?

Based on this article from 2017 - https://www.directlinegroup.co.uk/e...car-written-off-every-minute-and-a-half-.html - nearly 400,000 cars are on average written off by insurers every year in the UK, so an extra 1,000 isn't significant. They get written off usually because the estimated repair costs exceed the current value of the vehicle, so sometimes what appears to be (apparently) relatively minor damage can cause an insurance write-off with an older car.

In a case like this, I'd expect the individual vehicle insurers to pay out for their customer's losses, then squabble amongst themselves and with Luton Airport and their insurers as to who pays for what in the end.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Begs the question...why weren't sprinklers fitted in the car park at the time of building? Would they have made any difference?

Presume this came down to cost (?) How old is this car park?

Guessing too that if this was caused by a fuel leak (from a diesel Land Rover), then any electric vehicles within the vicinity would just have spontaneously combusted as the temperature rose

 

[jon0844]

Some people really are desperate to pin the blame on electric cars. There are many people on X sharing theories that the fire service has been made to blame a diesel car and hide the fact it was in fact an EV.

Even with a photo and video of the Range Rover, it's still being classed as a cover up.

Look at their profiles and you will naturally see a heap of other conspiracies.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Liverpool King's Dock car park fire destroyed 1300 vehicles on 31 December 2017.
It took a year to extract the vehicle remains and agree payouts by insurers of £20 million, prior to demolition of the structure.
A replacement car park has been built for £26 million, which I think opened 2 years after the fire at the end of 2019.

Liverpool car park fire: Insurance payouts estimated at £20m

It could take weeks for the building to be safe enough for structural assessment, the council says.

www.bbc.co.uk

More than 1,000 vehicles that were destroyed in a huge car park fire are being removed ahead of its demolition.
Temperatures in the multi-storey car park on King's Dock in Liverpool reached 1,000C during the inferno on New Year's Eve 2017.
Demolition was delayed while Liverpool City Council, motorists and insurers reached agreement over claims.

Last night's Luton Airport car park fire, while very serious, and having roughly the same capacity as the Liverpool fire, doesn't look to have been as destructive of vehicles, with the fire service saying a substantial number of cars were unaffected.
It's early days of course.

PS Fake News:
I can't find it now but earlier today my news feed had a picture from something called BNN Breaking, which I think is Bloomberg News.
The picture showed a major industrial fire with huge volumes of black smoke billowing across an expanse of grass, in daylight, and purported to be the Luton airport car park fire.
I doubt this was actually from Luton, as the fire there was largely out before the onset of daylight.

 

[Welly]

A few years ago a much older multi-storey at the main hospital in Nottingham underwent a structural inspection and was immediately declared too dangerous for anyone to enter. I understand that specialists went in and installed roof props and other measures, then after several weeks someone was able to go in and drive the cars out one by one. I expect something similar will happen here - at the very least they have to confirm no further collapse is possible before anyone starts recovery of property.

I was at Queen's Medical for an operation at the time, the car park was open on the Sunday but was declared dangerous that evening and my father was allowed to drive off without charge! Two days later when I was discharged, the car park was shut and all the parking spaces on the ground were occupied!

 

[Crossover]

How old is this car park?

Looking at Streetview, it was non-existant in August 2018 and appeared between then and the next image in 2020. So construction hadn't started at the time of the Liverpool fire (although design work would have presumably been complete)

 

[skyhigh]

Begs the question...why weren't sprinklers fitted in the car park at the time of building?

Do many car parks have sprinkler systems?

Would they have made any difference?

The problem with sprinklers is that one of the main issues with vehicle fires is fuel - a hole develops in the fuel tank, the fuel runs out and ignites as it spreads over the floor, setting fire to other nearby vehicles and causing the same thing to happen there. The oil will just float on top of water unless the sprinklers are able to deliver a lot of water. The oil will still burn on top of the water and it'll just cause the fire to spread faster.

For fires involving fuels you really need foam to suppress the fire.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do many car parks have sprinkler systems?

Some certainly do, yes, the pipework is usually quite visible. Though perhaps it's only required when joined to normally occupied buildings or something?

The problem with sprinklers is that one of the main issues with vehicle fires is fuel - a hole develops in the fuel tank, the fuel runs out and ignites as it spreads over the floor, setting fire to other nearby vehicles and causing the same thing to happen there. The oil will just float on top of water unless the sprinklers are able to deliver a lot of water. The oil will still burn on top of the water and it'll just cause the fire to spread faster.

For fires involving fuels you really need foam to suppress the fire.

The idea is that you get it quite early. Fuel tanks don't spontaneously combust.

 

[skyhigh]

The idea is that you get it quite early.

Though most sprinklers are triggered by heat breaking the seal on the sprinkler head - by which point a car fire will be fairly advanced.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Do many car parks have sprinkler systems?

Very funny

The reason I asked the question was that sprinklers might have been a consideration given the proximity of the car park to the airport and (presumably), design works for the DART airport station below it

 

[AM9]

There isn't a diesel plug in hybrid so the most it could have been is a mild hybrid which is essentially a small 48v battery capable of storing 200Wh of energy. It's completely different to an EV which might have as much as an 80kWh battery. The small battery on a mild hybrid will have had little effect on the size of the fire compared to environmental factors such as wind.

And that's assuming it was even a Hybrid in the first place.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Oct 2023 ==


Can't answer this but I imagine it could get messy - just checked my car insurance policy and the public liability is limited to £20million. Given the damage to vehicles, structure and flight cancellations I expect the costs to massively exceed that amount.

Then there's the question if the vehicle had a pre-existing fault, defect caused by a mechanic or something else which means the liability is shared with another partner.

In a car park, the public liability burden on the owner/insurer of the IC engined vehicle that initiated the fire would be limited to that which any single fire could cause. Beyond that it would be the building owner's liability, especially as it was of unprotected steel construction and without an automatic sprinkler systems to deal with a single vehicle fire. Any EVs that "spontaneously combusted" as a conspiratory theorist might describe it would be no different to any other vehicle, battery of hydrocarbon filled, i.e. the cause of their inflagration would be down to their local environment being the cause in such an event.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Oct 2023 ==

Though most sprinklers are triggered by heat breaking the seal on the sprinkler head - by which point a car fire will be fairly advanced.

That would be the trigger for the main pumps to start. The resulting surge sometimes breaks other glass sensors, meaning the whole area to be rapidly filled with water saturated air, thereby protecting the surrounding vehicles.

 

[dosxuk]

It's now reported that a 'significant number' of cars are undamaged and they are building a ramp to the undamaged area to try and remove some of the vehicles. The normal entrance/exit and drop off area has been destroyed.

The pictures on the BBC News site suggest they are building a ramp to the "Terminal Car Park 1", which is an adjacent but separate structure, unaffected by the fire. It normally shares it's access route with the car park that caught fire.

 

[Bald Rick]

The reason I asked the question was that sprinklers might have been a consideration given the proximity of the car park to the airport and (presumably), design works for the DART airport station below it

The DART station is not below it.

 

[Ediswan]

A small extract from OpenStreetMap, DART at the top.

 

[Crossover]

The problem with sprinklers is that one of the main issues with vehicle fires is fuel - a hole develops in the fuel tank, the fuel runs out and ignites as it spreads over the floor, setting fire to other nearby vehicles and causing the same thing to happen there. The oil will just float on top of water unless the sprinklers are able to deliver a lot of water. The oil will still burn on top of the water and it'll just cause the fire to spread faster.

For fires involving fuels you really need foam to suppress the fire.

I think it is referred to as a spreading pool fire. I have heard the term used at my workplace before (where we deal with various hazardous liquids) and how if you're not careful, the fire can be spread if the wrong "material" is used to try and extinguish it

 

[poffle]

This is the third major fire in the last 6 - 7 years.

Liverpool Waterfront Car Park, Dec 2017
Douglas Village Shopping Centre, Cork, Ireland Aug 2019
Luton Airport Car Park 2, Oct 2023

In Liverpool the fire started in a Range Rover.
In Cork the origin vehicle was a Zafira.

I'm a little suspicious of the suggestions that the Luton fire also started in a Range Rover and whether this might be Liverpool imagery repurposed.

I know that in the Cork fire the owners of the shopping centre are taking multimillion euro legal action against Opel/Vauxhall/Stellantis. Zafira had a well known habit of bursting into flames due to design flaws.

Judge makes directions in Douglas Village shopping centre case

Owners of centre seeking €30m after allegedly defective Opel went on fire

www.irishtimes.com

The key issue seems to be that modern cars are larger and have many more plastic components in them and larger fuel tanks than vehicles had 30 years ago when the multi story car park design standards were written.

In the past one vehicle going on fire didn't cause a chain reaction. Now the chain reactions seen to be the norm as the vehicles burn more intensely and are closer to each other. The heat can then cause structural damage to the building.

Fire risks in multi-storey car parks

A reporter is concerned by the reluctance of the industry to voluntarily take on board and proactively react to the lessons learnt from the fire at the Echo Arena car park in Liverpool.

www.cross-safety.org

 

[Mikey C]

A simple diesel leak from a car wouldn't just catch alight, as diesel isn't very flammable, so a mystery how it caught alight like that when it hadn't been in a high speed accident.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A simple diesel leak from a car wouldn't just catch alight, as diesel isn't very flammable, so a mystery how it caught alight like that when it hadn't been in a high speed accident.

An electrical fire could heat a fuel line until the diesel vapourises (a bit like priming a Tilley lamp or Primus stove, for those old enough to remember them) and then that can burn, dripping to the floor and starting a ground fire, which then heats the fuel tank and does the same on a larger scale. Add in some random plastics and further shorting of electrics and you go from there. Once the plastic fuel tank (they all are these days) melts, the burning fuel escapes onto the floor and spreads it to the next car and so on.

Though I have seen a fire brigade comment that while it didn't start in an EV there were EVs nearby, so they may have helped it spread.

I also heard the car had arrived quite recently to the fire, so may still have been quite warm, again providing for leaking fuel to be vapourised. Think about a plane crash - Jet A-1 is very similar in flammability to diesel (it's basically paraffin, as burnt in the lamps/stoves noted) but it being turned to spray and landing on hot components results in a fireball.

With regard to electrical fires in cars, I've long not entirely understood why they're earthed to the body rather than the wiring being two-core and isolated from the body, as this makes shorts and thus electrical fires rather more likely than otherwise. In a 12V system there's not the safety reason for earthing there is with the mains; if you touch something live at 12VDC you won't notice unless you lick it.

 

[1D54]

Airport open again with FR 423 having departed for Cork at 15:28.

 

[skyhigh]

I also heard the car had arrived quite recently to the fire, so may still have been quite warm, again providing for leaking fuel to be vapourised.

The photo I posted earlier in the thread clearly shows a car on fire in the middle of the lane with lights on, so if it's genuinely from the incident it looks like the engine was running at the time the fire started. It wasn't parked up so there would have been a source of heat/ignition.

 

[John Webb]

Though most sprinklers are triggered by heat breaking the seal on the sprinkler head - by which point a car fire will be fairly advanced.

....That would be the trigger for the main pumps to start. The resulting surge sometimes breaks other glass sensors, meaning the whole area to be rapidly filled with water saturated air, thereby protecting the surrounding vehicles.

Sprinkler heads have to remain sealed against pressures significantly above the system working pressure precisely to prevent the accidental operation of heads that may not be anywhere near the fire and would thus waste water better applied to the fire.

The use of sprinklers in an open-sided carpark is not an easy call to make. A 'Dry' system is often used where the pipework is exposed to freezing temperatures and therefore could be damaged by water icing up in the pipes. Instead the pipes are filled with air under pressure to detect any sprinkler opening - water is then admitted to the pipes to reach the sprinkler heads, but this takes extra time, of course. So even with modern 'Fast-response' heads, there is a delay in applying the water. The alternative, at some extra cost of installation and in running costs is to trace-heat the pipework and use a more usual 'wet' system.

I think it is referred to as a spreading pool fire. I have heard the term used at my workplace before (where we deal with various hazardous liquids) and how if you're not careful, the fire can be spread if the wrong "material" is used to try and extinguish it

Correct. Virtually all flammable liquids will float on water, so foam solutions are used. Air is entrapped within the spray (extinguisher, foam nozzle or the correct design of sprinkler head) and the water/foam/air mix is then lighter than the burning liquid, floats on top and cuts off the fuel from the air eventually extinguishing the fire.

BRE Ltd. (previously the Building Research Establishment), where I used to work, has done work at various times on burning cars and how fire spreads from one to another and in the 1970s a design guide was produced. But that was on older style vehicles, of course. I retired in 1997, so uncertain if work has been done on newer vehicles - I think it has but have no idea how they differed!

 

[thejuggler]

Its a low fire risk building, with very low risk to life in the event of a fire so no need for sprinkler systems.

 

[Russel]

In regards to sprinklers, with a fire this intense, would they have made any real difference to the outcome?

 

[Bletchleyite]

In regards to sprinklers, with a fire this intense, would they have made any real difference to the outcome?

They would probably have prevented it getting that intense.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

In regards to sprinklers, with a fire this intense, would they have made any real difference to the outcome?

This is what I asked in post #36

Who knows? I'm not an expert

 

[Russel]

Another question, what effect would the intense heat have on cars that weren't directly effected by the fire?