Major Fire at Luton Airport (10/10/23)

[Ediswan]

According to local TV News, DART remains closed, replacement bus service.

 

[Merle Haggard]

PS Fake News:
I can't find it now but earlier today my news feed had a picture from something called BNN Breaking, which I think is Bloomberg News.
The picture showed a major industrial fire with huge volumes of black smoke billowing across an expanse of grass, in daylight, and purported to be the Luton airport car park fire.
I doubt this was actually from Luton, as the fire there was largely out before the onset of daylight.

It may have been an old clip, but passing through Tipton on a Pendo just after mid-day there was a fire which fits this description to the west. Turns out it was a major fire in a scrapyard (though I'm not sure whether grass and Tipton ever converge). Although some distance away, high flames were visible - plus a long smoke trail.

 

[MotCO]

Another question, what effect would the intense heat have on cars that weren't directly effected by the fire?

Paint could blister? Piping or electrical wires could melt.

 

[edwin_m]

Another question, what effect would the intense heat have on cars that weren't directly effected by the fire?

The main effect was clearly to allow the fire to spread from one car to the next one. But there are likely to be some that didn't actually burn but have been heat damaged to some extent, as well as others damaged by the collapsed of part of the structure.

 

[gabrielhj07]

This image is apparently from yesterday. There aren't any EV Range Rovers and it looks like an older Evoque (which were full diesel).

View attachment 144637
(Image shows a car on fire, allegedly at Luton Airport)

Either an old Evoque or an L494 sport. If it's a sport then it could well have been a mild hybrid.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Either an old Evoque or an L494 sport. If it's a sport then it could well have been a mild hybrid.

The mild hybrid has a 200Wh battery, which is about the same as two average mobile phone power banks. Not very significant, really.

 

[gabrielhj07]

The mild hybrid has a 200Wh battery, which is about the same as two average mobile phone power banks. Not very significant, really.

Of course not, but something to bear in mind as a possible cause, especially if it was a diesel.

 

[AndyPJG]

With regard to electrical fires in cars, I've long not entirely understood why they're earthed to the body rather than the wiring being two-core and isolated from the body, as this makes shorts and thus electrical fires rather more likely than otherwise. In a 12V system there's not the safety reason for earthing there is with the mains; if you touch something live at 12VDC you won't notice unless you lick it.

Cost.

 

[John Webb]

Another question, what effect would the intense heat have on cars that weren't directly effected by the fire?

Paint could blister? Piping or electrical wires could melt.

There are three ways the fire spreads in a carpark:
1. At ground level when leaking fuel ignites and spreads under adjacent vehicles, setting them on fire from below;
2. Direct flame contact from one vehicle to an adjacent one which ignites external paintwork, can cause side windows to fail and thus allow flames into the adjacent vehicle.
3. Hot gases from the original car on fire build up and spread across the usually low ceiling above other vehicles - heat radiated down from these gases can cause the external paint to ignite as the paint is heated by the radiation - again the windows can also fail and the internal seat upholstery also be ignited by the radiation if it reaches a sufficient intensity.

As the number of vehicles on fire increases, so does the quantity of hot gases, the depth of flame layer under the ceiling leading to even quicker ignition of more cars...... One advantage of a sprinkler system is that it may interfere with item 2 above, will certainly considerably reduce item 3, and may, particularly with Diesel fuel but not petrol, affect item 1 by cooling (and diluting) the fuel to the point where it ceases to burn.

 

[jon0844]

Of course not, but something to bear in mind as a possible cause, especially if it was a diesel.

I'd say 80%* of the comments on the Facebook BBC page is saying it was an EV, or now that it had to be a lithium battery in the car. It's still a cover up that the BBC won't admit it was an EV, and GB News latched on to the fact that given all cars have a battery, it could still be a battery fault (and its viewers will read that as EV).

It's quite mad that so many people believe the BBC, airport, fire service and everyone else is involved in this conspiracy.

* another 10% seem to be about Hamas and Israel for some reason. Did Hamas set the car on fire?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd say 80%* of the comments on the Facebook BBC page is saying it was an EV, or now that it had to be a lithium battery in the car. It's still a cover up that the BBC won't admit it was an EV, and GB News latched on to the fact that given all cars have a battery, it could still be a battery fault (and its viewers will read that as EV).

There's a fairly reasonable chance it was a 12V electrical fault, that's a very common cause of car fires. Even EVs have a separate 12V circuit and lead acid battery for lights etc.

 

[jon0844]

Sure, it could be an electrical fault (they're renowned for electrical issues or certainly used to be) or it could be an oil leak, class 180 style. It clearly burned for some time before reaching the necessary flash point that's very high for diesel. Hence the 'simmering' ahead of the explosion.

 

[Hadders]

You may have lost your pocket money!

Eats humble pie

I'm actually quite pleased to hear it wasn't an EV that started it.

On a separate note is the car park the one that has the pick-up on the ground floor. If so they'll need to find a temporary location for it while the car park is rebuilt.

 

[Russel]

Sure, it could be an electrical fault (they're renowned for electrical issues or certainly used to be) or it could be an oil leak, class 180 style. It clearly burned for some time before reaching the necessary flash point that's very high for diesel. Hence the 'simmering' ahead of the explosion.

Never really thought of it this way but the Range Rovers and class 180s probably have a similar level of reliability!

 

[Haywain]

On a separate note is the car park the one that has the pick-up on the ground floor. If so they'll need to find a temporary location for it while the car park is rebuilt.

Yes, and temporary arrangements are already in place.

 

[dgl]

Being a Range Rover the list of things that could go wrong would need at least a ream of paper!
There's many jokes about this including the Australian one of, a land really ver gets you in to the outback, a land cruiser gets you back again.

There are many amps in a 12V system so things can get hot very quickly if something goes wrong, and there is nothing else really that could go wrong in a cold vehicle to start a fire that wouldn't have required someone to start. So an electrical issue is probably the most likely.

Related, as for 12V systems in electric/hybrid vehicles interestingly the regular hybrid version of the Hyundai ioniq doesn't have a regular 12V battery, it's part of the hybrid system battery, and as such if it goes flat the hybrid battery can be used to "jump-start" it. Quite neat.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Being a Range Rover the list of things that could go wrong would need at least a ream of paper!
There's many jokes about this including the Australian one of, a land really ver gets you in to the outback, a land cruiser gets you back again.

The classic is more this. A Land Rover Defender can be stripped down and rebuilt in the field with a hammer and a box of spanners. A Toyota Land Cruiser doesn't need to be.

There are many amps in a 12V system so things can get hot very quickly if something goes wrong, and there is nothing else really that could go wrong in a cold vehicle to start a fire that wouldn't have required someone to start. So an electrical issue is probably the most likely.

The Range Rover was pictured in a widely circulated video (linked upthread I think) in the middle of a lane on fire with the lights still on, so it seems it caught fire while still hot, so a leaky fuel line or failed head gasket spraying diesel or engine oil onto the exhaust could have as easily been a cause. It looks like it caught fire and the owner abandoned it when it did.

 

[Farigiraf]

Are they charging £4.90 for the bus, like the DART?

 

[jon0844]

Another video shows the car plate to be E10 EFL - Range Rover Sport SE TDV6 A

There are at least two fire extinguishers nearby so someone had attempted to put it out before, presumably, scarpering.

What's also notable in the video is that there's no alarm going off. Our local car park (similar design by the looks of it, like many modern car parks) has LOTS of alarms and lights - I know this because kids set the alarm off most days/nights for fun.

Clearly when something like this happens, you'd want everyone to be made aware of a potential threat and to get clear.

That said, because the alarm goes off so often in our car park, people ignore it. And I guess some people might think to exit in their vehicle, which would cause chaos if everyone jumped back into their cars and attempted to leave in a hurry.

Link: https://twitter.com/andysoullinux/status/1712232395049422942

 

[Stathern Jc]

Much of interest here on this subject.
But I do feel uncomfortable about a particular vehicle's Reg No being quoted, even if it can be seen elsewhere without too much effort.

 

[Darandio]

Much of interest here on this subject.
But I do feel uncomfortable about a particular vehicle's Reg No being quoted, even if it can be seen elsewhere without too much effort.

If it's already out there and easy to find then what is the issue?

 

[AM9]

Much of interest here on this subject.
But I do feel uncomfortable about a particular vehicle's Reg No being quoted, even if it can be seen elsewhere without too much effort.

Well it's not as if that vehicle will be parking outside its owner's home again!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well it's not as if that vehicle will be parking outside its owner's home again!

Though as it's a personalised plate they may want to re-use it on the replacement vehicle.

There is a concern I suppose that this car owner could become the target of abuse etc, even though they have not actually done anything wrong - indeed it looks like they may have tried to put it out. A bit like the owner of the errant refrigerator at Grenfell was I believe a target for a bit despite having done everything right having discovered the fire, i.e. "get out, get the fire brigade out, and stay out" as per the old 1980s-90s TV ad.

 

[AM9]

Though as it's a personalised plate they may want to re-use it on the replacement vehicle.

There is a concern I suppose that this car owner could become the target of abuse etc, even though they have not actually done anything wrong - indeed it looks like they may have tried to put it out. A bit like the owner of the errant refrigerator at Grenfell was I believe a target for a bit despite having done everything right having discovered the fire, i.e. "get out, get the fire brigade out, and stay out" as per the old 1980s-90s TV ad.

There might be a few nut jobs with that sort of mind set, but there's a limit to the amount of factual information that should be obscured on the off-chance of that. If I was into advertising my presence everywhere with a distinctive number plate, (and prepared to pay for the privilege), I would be more ashamed of evidence showing that used a dump like Luton Airport.

 

[jon0844]

Ordinary people cannot get a name or address of the owner from a plate. If we could, it would be carnage every time there was a road rage incident, someone blocking someone else in or whatever.

Plates are not private. They're literally on display for the whole world to see, whether with our own eyes or that of a camera.

I have never owned a Range Rover because everyone throughout my whole life who has owned one (either new, or second hand) has a long list of tales of woe. I wouldn't feel anger at the owner of a car that caught fire (especially as it appears there was an attempt to put it out) and can't see how anyone else would. It was an accident, and perhaps the only people who might wish to be asked some questions are the car manufacturer.

(Disclaimer; it may have been something inside the car that was on fire etc).

 

[Meerkat]

I assume this fire was helped because of the location - a meccano car park at the edge of an airport is likely to be a bit breezy….

 

[gabrielhj07]

I assume this fire was helped because of the location - a meccano car park at the edge of an airport is likely to be a bit breezy….

It's very windy there!

 

[ninja-lewis]

BRE Ltd. (previously the Building Research Establishment), where I used to work, has done work at various times on burning cars and how fire spreads from one to another and in the 1970s a design guide was produced. But that was on older style vehicles, of course. I retired in 1997, so uncertain if work has been done on newer vehicles - I think it has but have no idea how they differed!

 

[John Webb]

Thanks for that - any indication of when the video was made?

It clearly shows the spread of fire as I describe in points 2 and 3 of my post #69 above; I assume they may well have used vehicles without fuel tanks, so deliberately missed out on spreading fuel at ground level as in my point 1.
The fire was started with a standard wood 'crib' developed in the 1980s for testing the flammability of furniture; it has a known heat output.
The heavily lagged items in the centre and at the rear of the test rig were columns of thermocouples measuring the temperatures at various heights above the floor and may have also included equipment measuring the heat radiation from the burning vehicles.

 

[chiltern trev]

Copied from my reply on similar topic in another subforum.

Just reflecting on the fire at Luton Airport Multistorey Car Park which has been extensively reported.

I notice from photos that this car park appeared to be of the same light weight mainly metal construction as the Kings Dock multistorey car park in Liverpool which suffered a major fire in 2017 and had to be completely demolished.

These metal framed car parks seem to offer very little fire resistance between the decks unlike the solidly built traditional concrete ones.

If I recall from a visit there last year the multistorey at Bristol Parkway is also of similar lightweight construction.

One wonders if questions will soon be asked about the safety of these structures as the decking seems to offer no resistance to fire spreading upwards or downwards?

The Liverpool Kings Dock multi storey car park was not a steel structure. It was reinforced concrete throughout.

https://www.bafsa.org.uk/wp-content...er/2018/12/Merseyside-FRS-Car-Park-Report.pdf

Page 7, top paragragh is:

Kings Dock car park is an 8 level, open-sided construction, comprising a ground and seven upper floors, the seventh being roof top parking. The footprint is 4930m². The construction method is concrete columns and beams, with tied in reinforced pre-cast ribbed concrete floors. The building is surrounded to the south and east by blocks of serviced apartments, which lie in very close proximity (6m) to the car park, and to the north by the Staybridge Suites Hotel, which is separated from the car park by a 15m concourse. To the west, lies the Arena and Convention Centre Liverpool (ACCL). There is a service road running under the concourse between the car park and the Staybridge Suites, which leads to a loading bay and this is used for importing and exporting equipment, people and animals for shows and conventions held in the Echo Arena.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Oct 2023 ==

This fire happened nearly 5 years ago on New Years Eve when there was the Liverpool Internation Horse Show on in the arena.

The car park was full with the ground floor being used for stables. All horses were safely rescued.

At the time the fire started, in one car, there was very few, if any, people in the car park, hence the 15 minute delay in the first 999 call. I think the car that started the fire was on floor 3 - the fire spread to adjacent cars - you can see from the fire report that after the fire brigade arrived they reported 20 cars on fire and running fuel.

The whole car park was eventually on fire. Most cars were totally burnt out but some on the top and upper floors on the side away from the start of the fire were badly smoke damaged, or water damaged (by the fire brigade) or partly fire damaged. All cars were declared write offs and it was at least 1 month before damaged cars were removed.

The car park did NOT collapse. However, due to the intense heat, there was a lot of concrete spalling to the extent that you could see through from one floor to the floor below leaving the steel reinforcing rods visible which maintained their original position.

There was no sprinkler system.

There were a lot of plastic drain pipes and gutters, so being plastic, they melted or burnt and thus helped the flow of burning fuel. It was commented somewhere that steel/iron drains and gutters would have retained the flowing and burning fuel and thus assisted considerably with not spreading the fire.

Each parking floor contained a ramped parking section which was how you drove between floors and thus fuel could flow down from one floor to the floor below and fire could follow the ceiling above to move upwards.

The fire brigade reports are (or were) in the public domain.

Car Insurance. Some useful info if you lost a car at Luton.

Some companies acted responsibly with claims but there were a lot of issues. There was only one culprit car and thus all the rest were no fault claims. So be prepared to 'fight' an insurance company.

Ensure you get it in writing from your insurance company that is it a no fault claim. Cars were undervalued - so look around at what dealers have for sale and find 3 cars for sale that are the same/similar to that which you have lost and use these to justify the amount to be paid. When you come to insure your replacement car, watch the insurance premium and there were instances of a big hike in the premium, hence you need to press the no fault button very hard. The same may happen on each renewal. And you may find if you try to move insurer, then it may prove difficult or impossible.
And this will be a 5 year blight on your car insurance as one of the questions on renewals is "Have you or anyone had a claim in the last 5 years".

Hence the importance of a letter in writing stating no fault claim.

My interest in the Liverpool fire - a member of the family lost a car and all its contents.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Oct 2023 ==

Have a read of the Merseyside document. Some quick observations:
* The Liverpool car park surviced the 15 minute fire test because it was of concrete. There is a paragragh which states if steel is used (as in Luton) because of a relaxation of fire standard, i.e. no 15 minute test, then the steel structure will collapse -as happened at Luton
* Design criteria (historic) suggested there would be no great fire spead - Merseyside Fire Brigade state this is clearly incorrect.
* There are various photos including showing concrete spalling holes through to the floor below.
* The nominal capacity is 1600 which is downgraded when the ground floor is used for other purposes, in this case stable.
* The fire brigade estimate 1170 vechiles destroyed/written off.
* The fire report mentions aluminium gutters which melted at 600C.