Aviemore incident 29/9/23

[Bletchleyite]

I’m always astounded that in this day and age people are still allowed in that open veranda on Royal Scotsman. Considering that on most tours you’d be sent back to your seat for just standing near an open droplight.

Presumably specific risk is assessed for the specific routes it runs on. I doubt people would be allowed on it on the WCML.

 

[12LDA28C]

I’m always astounded that in this day and age people are still allowed in that open veranda on Royal Scotsman. Considering that on most tours you’d be sent back to your seat for just standing near an open droplight.

If they've paid over four grand for their trip then they deserve a unique experience as far as I'm concerned. I wouldn't mind a go at that myself.

 

[notverydeep]

I’m always astounded that in this day and age people are still allowed in that open veranda on Royal Scotsman. Considering that on most tours you’d be sent back to your seat for just standing near an open droplight.

In the late 1990s, I travelled aboard the Tren de la Fresa from Madrid to Aranjuez. Instead a sedate run with the booked steam loco, the train was hauled by an English Electric class 277 heritage electric loco. It departed Puerta de Atocha station at the same time as a Class 252 Talgo to Malaga and the heritage loco driver was clearly intent on having a race. With only four heritage coaches, they had a much better power to weight ratio and rapidly left the Talgo behind. I am fairly sure the train reached 130+ km/h. Standing on the open varanda of the leading vehicle was... interesting!

 

[John Love NB]

What I think may have happened is that the Royal Scotsman train has arrived, quite late in the day, not from the south but from the north. As it is so late in the day (sunset is around 7 p.m. in Scotland just now), I would expect the passengers to be detrained in the main line up platform (Platform 2?). There are several good large hotels in Aviemore where they could dine and maybe stay overnight. Also, in my experience, railways are never keen on leaving passengers inside a loco-hauled train during a propelling move. The engine that has brought the train from Inverness would then draw it down, and propel it back onto the Strathspey line. For some reason they seem to propelled it further onto the Strathspey line than is usual. I think that is the reason why Flying Scotsman is going so fast. The driver doesn't expect to reach the train for another hundred yards or so.

When working as a goods guard in the '70s I often acted as secondman on diesels running light, especially when returning to Eastfield shed at the end of our shift, so I have some sympathy with the fireman here. I especially remember one occasion where I said the wrong thing. I reckon we must have worked a train finishing at Cadder, and we were coming into Eastfield from the east. I can't remember now who the driver was, but it was one I new well and we were chatting together. We stopped where we always did, in the second loop, just inside the cat's eye signal that would take us into the shed. We both opened the cabside windows and looked back in the direction we were going to go. The signal was on my side, and it was still on. I casually said to the driver, "That's us," meaning "We're finished for the day, or we will be in a minute when we get the engine into the fuel road." As soon as I said it, I heard the driver releasing the direct air brake and starting to open the throttle. He had taken me to mean "That's us, we've got the road," which is what we trainmen usually meant when we said "That's us". I quickly called, "No! The signal's still on," and the driver shut the throttle again. A second later the signal did clear and we set back into the depot. After 50 yards or so, we cleared the hand points for the fuel road, so I got off, pulled the points, and the driver drove into the fuel road. I probably let him drive the last few yards himself, so I'd say goodbye after I pulled the points. I'd then start to walk home as I lived near the sheds. My driver probably knew how stupid I'd been, but was too polite to say anything. But I knew, and the fact I clearly remember the incident 45 years later says it all! Since we didn't actually pass the signal at danger, no harm was done. But it does show how easy it is to make a mistake.

A contributory cause in the present case is the design of that corridor tender, which so effectively blocks the driver and fireman's view when running tender first. Who can we blame for that? A certain Nigel Gresley perhaps? But there's probably no other way to carry enough water and coal, and to fit in a corridor too, but to build the tender right to the loading gauge. Of course you don't need all that water and coal capacity to go from Aviemore to Broomhill and back, but that's not what Flying Scotsman was designed for!!

 

[Gateway66]

What I think may have happened is that the Royal Scotsman train has arrived, quite late in the day, not from the south but from the north. As it is so late in the day (sunset is around 7 p.m. in Scotland just now), I would expect the passengers to be detrained in the main line up platform (Platform 2?). There are several good large hotels in Aviemore where they could dine and maybe stay overnight. Also, in my experience, railways are never keen on leaving passengers inside a loco-hauled train during a propelling move. The engine that has brought the train from Inverness would then draw it down, and propel it back onto the Strathspey line. For some reason they seem to propelled it further onto the Strathspey line than is usual. I think that is the reason why Flying Scotsman is going so fast. The driver doesn't expect to reach the train for another hundred yards or so.

When working as a goods guard in the '70s I often acted as secondman on diesels running light, especially when returning to Eastfield shed at the end of our shift, so I have some sympathy with the fireman here. I especially remember one occasion where I said the wrong thing. I reckon we must have worked a train finishing at Cadder, and we were coming into Eastfield from the east. I can't remember now who the driver was, but it was one I new well and we were chatting together. We stopped where we always did, in the second loop, just inside the cat's eye signal that would take us into the shed. We both opened the cabside windows and looked back in the direction we were going to go. The signal was on my side, and it was still on. I casually said to the driver, "That's us," meaning "We're finished for the day, or we will be in a minute when we get the engine into the fuel road." As soon as I said it, I heard the driver releasing the direct air brake and starting to open the throttle. He had taken me to mean "That's us, we've got the road," which is what we trainmen usually meant when we said "That's us". I quickly called, "No! The signal's still on," and the driver shut the throttle again. A second later the signal did clear and we set back into the depot. After 50 yards or so, we cleared the hand points for the fuel road, so I got off, pulled the points, and the driver drove into the fuel road. I probably let him drive the last few yards himself, so I'd say goodbye after I pulled the points. I'd then start to walk home as I lived near the sheds. My driver probably knew how stupid I'd been, but was too polite to say anything. But I knew, and the fact I clearly remember the incident 45 years later says it all! Since we didn't actually pass the signal at danger, no harm was done. But it does show how easy it is to make a mistake.

A contributory cause in the present case is the design of that corridor tender, which so effectively blocks the driver and fireman's view when running tender first. Who can we blame for that? A certain Nigel Gresley perhaps? But there's probably no other way to carry enough water and coal, and to fit in a corridor too, but to build the tender right to the loading gauge. Of course you don't need all that water and coal capacity to go from Aviemore to Broomhill and back, but that's not what Flying Scotsman was designed for!!

Train arrived from the south about 1800

 

[12C]

If they've paid over four grand for their trip then they deserve a unique experience as far as I'm concerned. I wouldn't mind a go at that myself.

I’m not saying I wouldn’t either, it would be a totally unique experience. But it does seem at odds to all the recent hysteria about passengers not being allowed near open droplight windows on charter stock. Whether a passenger pays four grand or forty quid for a tour surely safety standards should be consistent?

 

[EdChap]

Belmond owning the Royal Scotsman train and the British Pullman train based at Stewarts Lane, I wonder if they will ban steam from operating the British Pullman set?

 

[John Bishop]

I'm more interested on how many people were on the footplate at the time.

Yeah, similar thoughts. I count at least 3 people on the video. If the 3rd person was the driver, then he wasn’t looking behind him so I would suggest it’s probably 4 people. 3 of them all seemed to be on the drivers side in very close proximity to him. Why so many onboard?

Interesting statement issued today from Strathspey Railway https://www.strathspeyrailway.co.uk/ that due to the incident they are now withholding the sale of Santa Services until further notice. What’s coming do they think? ORR/ RAIB investigation or audit?

 

[Mainliner]

I’m always astounded that in this day and age people are still allowed in that open veranda on Royal Scotsman. Considering that on most tours you’d be sent back to your seat for just standing near an open droplight.

I enjoyed great views (sometimes over dizzying drops of hundreds of feet) from the open verandas of the old stock on the White Pass & Yukon Route railway in Alaska last month. It got a bit cold standing outside at about 3,000 feet up though!

 

[sloaneesq]

I think FS had a completely new boiler, not that many years ago. Plus, as you say, all the boiler overhauls (and swaps?) during its LNER-BR ownership

Fair enough, but it still has a full time crew whenever its hot.

 

[Falcon1200]

Interesting statement issued today from Strathspey Railway that due to the incident they are now withholding the sale of Santa Services until further notice.

Maybe just the booking office very busy dealing with refunds for disappointed passengers? (although that will mean a serious financial hit for the railway).

 

[TrainsToday]

Dose anyone have any idea how long it could be before the Flying Scotsman is back in service?

 

[John Bishop]

Maybe just the booking office very busy dealing with refunds for disappointed passengers? (although that will mean a serious financial hit for the railway).

The line “As a consequence of the unfortunate events on Friday, the railway is currently reviewing the position with regards to this years festive services”, would suggest otherwise. That to me suggests wider implications as a result of the incident.

 

[Falcon1200]

That to me suggests wider implications as a result of the incident.

Fair point, but I wonder why, given that neither the loco nor the stock involved belong to the railway, and only a small number of staff were involved.

 

[paul1609]

Yeah, similar thoughts. I count at least 3 people on the video. If the 3rd person was the driver, then he wasn’t looking behind him so I would suggest it’s probably 4 people. 3 of them all seemed to be on the drivers side in very close proximity to him. Why so many onboard?

Interesting statement issued today from Strathspey Railway that due to the incident they are now withholding the sale of Santa Services until further notice. What’s coming do they think? ORR/ RAIB investigation or audit?

At a guess 4 crew on footplate;
1) Driver
2) Fireman
3) Cleaner/ 3rd Man (trainee fireman)
4) Owners Representative.
this would be pretty normal for a hired in loco on a preserved railway. Its normal for them to be in a cluster so the fireman has room to swing his shovel to get coal to the front of the firebox.

Reckon its whilst they sort out tickets to be refunded.

 

[Stathern Jc]

Reckon its whilst they sort out tickets to be refunded.

Issuing refunds for the whole of what would have been one of the busiest days of the year will obviously be an administrative avalanche for some poor soul at the Strathspey.
But would that necessitate the suspension of all sales for the Santa Specials including online sales?

From the cash flow perspective an option of a credit against tickets for the Santa Specials would ease things a bit, but any need for an extra layer of admin effort this week would probably be more than anyone could deal with and best to keep things simple.

 

[paul1609]

Issuing refunds for the whole of what would have been one of the busiest days of the year will obviously be an administrative avalanche for some poor soul at the Strathspey.
But would that necessitate the suspension of all sales for the Santa Specials including online sales?

From the cash flow perspective an option of a credit against tickets for the Santa Specials would ease things a bit, but any need for an extra layer of admin effort this week would probably be more than anyone could deal with and best to keep things simple.

I can't speak for the Strathspey its too far away but at the Kent & East Sussex the santa bookings are complex and intense and it requires the full attention of the two telephone clerks assisted by the marketing staff even to sort out what are ostensively on line booking. Ours are well underway now with some categories sold out.

Santa Specials 2023 - Kent & East Sussex Railway

Santa Specials 2023 Meet Santa at the Kent & East Sussex Railway We love Christmas at the Kent and East Sussex Railway and we have been welcoming families to meet Santa on our trains for nearly 50 years! There’s nothing quite like the pleasure of a steam train ride knowing your child will meet Santa

kesr.org.uk

 

[The Puddock]

What I think may have happened is that the Royal Scotsman train has arrived, quite late in the day, not from the south but from the north. As it is so late in the day (sunset is around 7 p.m. in Scotland just now), I would expect the passengers to be detrained in the main line up platform (Platform 2?). There are several good large hotels in Aviemore where they could dine and maybe stay overnight. Also, in my experience, railways are never keen on leaving passengers inside a loco-hauled train during a propelling move. The engine that has brought the train from Inverness would then draw it down, and propel it back onto the Strathspey line. For some reason they seem to propelled it further onto the Strathspey line than is usual. I think that is the reason why Flying Scotsman is going so fast. The driver doesn't expect to reach the train for another hundred yards or so.

As above, the train arrived from the south so I think your speculation is unhelpful at best. The train is routinely propelled with passengers on board at Aviemore Keith, Perth and Dundee. The connection between Network Rail infrastructure and the Strathspey Railway is signalled to passenger standards and the passengers stay on board the Scotsman when the train is transferred between the two. Indeed the entire raison d’etre of the Royal Scotsman is that the passengers eat and sleep on board every night.

There is no restriction on the use of the veranda while the train is moving (it’s the only smoking area on the train) and a couple of years ago the sides were fitted with perspex screens to prevent people sticking limbs or heads outside the railing.

 

[jamieP]

No, unless this line magically doesn't need to follow the rulebook..

Carries a bit more than 5mph based on that video.. Whoever was controlling that movement is at fault.

Where in the rule book does it say you can't stand there?

 

[BRX]

Fairly sure I've been stood on brake van balconies while a loco is buffering up, at at least a couple of heritage railways.

 

[12LDA28C]

Fairly sure I've been stood on brake van balconies while a loco is buffering up, at at least a couple of heritage railways.

Not like this though I’ll wager…

 

[M7R]

I’m always astounded that in this day and age people are still allowed in that open veranda on Royal Scotsman. Considering that on most tours you’d be sent back to your seat for just standing near an open droplight.

Great Central also have an observation car, we had our wedding breakfast on it when we got married there, and the veranda was open all trip back and forth twice. The last risk assessment to it required the railings to be raised a little which you can see in the photo. It was really special being out there watching the world go by,

 

[londontransit]

Video filmed from the rear observation deck of the Royal Scot.

https://twitter.com/thebashmash/status/1708921216923205639

 

[LowLevel]

At a guess 4 crew on footplate;
1) Driver
2) Fireman
3) Cleaner/ 3rd Man (trainee fireman)
4) Owners Representative.
this would be pretty normal for a hired in loco on a preserved railway. Its normal for them to be in a cluster so the fireman has room to swing his shovel to get coal to the front of the firebox.

Reckon its whilst they sort out tickets to be refunded.

I reckon looking at the video there's at least 5 faces if not 6. 3 in the huddle, one in the fireman's seat, one on the tender behind the fireman's seat and you can't see if there's anyone actually at the driver's seat. Quite a crowded footplate.

 

[75A]

Not quite the way we were taught how to 'couple up'

 

[chuff chuff]

Video filmed from the rear observation deck of the Royal Scot.

https://twitter.com/thebashmash/status/1708921216923205639

Would like to think i would have baled before the ending.

 

[43096]

Whoever was controlling that movement is at fault.

I think the phrase "coming to a clear understanding of how the move is to be performed" may be key words in this. Given the visibility with the tender in the way, I still do not understand why the move was not being controlled by contact with a shunter on the ground.

 

[43096]

The line “As a consequence of the unfortunate events on Friday, the railway is currently reviewing the position with regards to this years festive services”, would suggest otherwise. That to me suggests wider implications as a result of the incident.

Agreed. It suggests to me a visit from either the RAIB or the ORR, or both.

 

[357]

Would like to think i would have baled before the ending.

Easy to say now that we know what’s about to happen.

Remember these people do not know so much about trains and are unlikely to know what a normal coupling procedure consists of.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Oct 2023 ==

No, unless this line magically doesn't need to follow the rulebook..

I've never seen anything in the rule book about that. I used to couple trains with passengers on all the time.

 

[John Bishop]

Easy to say now that we know what’s about to happen.

Remember these people do not know so much about trains and are unlikely to know what a normal coupling procedure consists of.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Oct 2023 ==


I've never seen anything in the rule book about that. I used to couple trains with passengers on all the time.

By the way they were shouting “Jeez, jeez, jeez” and “I guess this is why they don’t want you to……” they knew it wasn’t right, it would be quite clear to anyone that it was never going to stop in time.

That video gives a very good aspect of the speed of the loco, it made no effort to slow down at all prior to the collision.