Aviemore incident 29/9/23

[ac6000cw]

The phrase that immediately came to my mind on seeing the video clip was "amateur hour".

As someone upthread noted, more like coupling up to freight stock in a yard somewhere.

Quite - it looks a heavy shunt even for freight stock!

I wonder does this mean that liability is shared between both footplate crew? Bit of a tricky concept to get your head around in the modern age!

I suspect the main responsibility/liability is still the driver's - the fireman is basically acting as the driver's assistant in this situation, providing an extra pair of eyes.

 

[randyrippley]

I’m not saying it was wrong to send that level of response but it could compromise their response to another incident depending on location.

Look at it as an unscheduled training exercise. Callouts to unusual circumstances are always worthwhile ways to gain experience

 

[Ducatist4]

Aren't they supposed to be guided in by someone on the ground, stop six feet short then move up dead slow? Maybe the
driver was maybe looking at the wrong person to signal to him?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Aren't they supposed to be guided in by someone on the ground, stop six feet short then move up dead slow? Maybe the
driver was maybe looking at the wrong person to signal to him?

Rule book I understand is stop at 6 feet, draw up to 2 feet then couple.

 

[D6130]

Belmond is the old Sea Containers offshoot Orient Express which was renamed some years ago now.

Correct....but the BBC News article was implying that the Strathspey Railway was part of the Belmond organisation!

 

[Killingworth]

Rule book I understand is stop at 6 feet, draw up to 2 feet then couple.

It looks like there were two rakes of coaches on adjacent tracks and FS may have been preparing to stop down the track ro the left - but the path was set for the track alongside where the coaches were rather nearer. The firemen might have had difficuty seeing them in twilight from his position

 

[66701GBRF]

Rule book I understand is stop at 6 feet, draw up to 2 feet then couple.

The stopping at 2ft is for autocouplers/buckeyes. Normal hook couplings is 6ft only.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The stopping at 2ft is for autocouplers/buckeyes. Normal hook couplings is 6ft only.

Thanks for the clarification!

 

[paul1609]

Makes me wonder if they were looking at the end of the coach on the adjacent track, and thinking they were heading for that, while the end of the Royal Scotsman rake was obscured by the tender. That long white picket fence doesn't offer many landmarks as to exactly how far along you are.

Flying Scotsman was running on a single track in to the Royal Scotsman stock which was berthed foul of the loop points which are approximately 20 feet beyond the Network Rail Grey Boxes that you can see in the video on the other side of the line. The other stock is berthed in the loop itself there was no clear route to it.

 

[Pete_uk]

Video of the incident

https://twitter.com/AlastairDalton/status/1708414414800482478?t=T-K1hze2v77Eragi-ADh-Q&s=19

 

[D6130]

The stopping at 2ft is for autocouplers/buckeyes. Normal hook couplings is 6ft only.

That's correct....but from the video it's clear that 60103 is running with a corridor tender, therefore presumably its buckeye coupling may have been in use?

 

[Townsend Hook]

That's correct....but from the video it's clear that 60103 is running with a corridor tender, therefore presumably its buckeye coupling may have been in use?

Is it certain that the intention was to couple FS to the Royal Scotsman set, or was it just shunting towards them?

 

[30907]

I've just seen one of the videos - I wonder if the observation platform on the end coach gave a false impression of its length (the maroon coach sides/end being 6ft further away than the buffers)?
That said, the loco wasn't going to stop 6ft short of the stock either way, so it's probably irrelevant.

 

[jamieP]

That's correct....but from the video it's clear that 60103 is running with a corridor tender, therefore presumably its buckeye coupling may have been in use?

No buckeye on the coach at that end

 

[357]

The stopping at 2ft is for autocouplers/buckeyes. Normal hook couplings is 6ft only.

Depends on company policy.

 

[BRX]

Flying Scotsman was running on a single track in to the Royal Scotsman stock which was berthed foul of the loop points which are approximately 20 feet beyond the Network Rail Grey Boxes that you can see in the video on the other side of the line. The other stock is berthed in the loop itself there was no clear route to it.

Nonetheless I wonder if they became disorientated and simply did not see the end of the RS rake, mistaking the end of the other rake for it.

 

[Norther Monkey]

Saw the observation car heading south, by road, this afternoon.

 

[John Love NB]

That's correct....but from the video it's clear that 60103 is running with a corridor tender, therefore presumably its buckeye coupling may have been in use?

Looking at the picture linked to by Dfatcontroller in post #20 on page 1, it seems that the Royal Scotsman observation car is non-gangwayed at this end, and therefore doesn't have a buckeye coupling. So it would be necessary to use a screw coupling. It's hard to see what's happening in that picture (taken in the dark) but I think the observation car may have a screw coupling which has been hooked back onto some sort of securing hook. It also looks as if Flying Scotsman's tender may have an emergency screw coupling hanging from its drawhook. When I was a working on the railway (1970-82), the standing instruction was that the locomotive coupling must always be used to couple the loco to the train, but this is clearly not possible in this case. So the next best thing might be to use the emergency screw coupling. Maybe 60103 always carries one for this purpose.

........................................

I have to admit I am not familiar with the track layout at Aviemore. I last visited the Strathspey Railway around 1980-81, and there have clearly been major changes since then, including it seems a new passenger station adjacent to the Highland main line one. A lot of my impressions of the line today are based on a YouTube video made a week ago:

.

The first thing that occurs to me is that these coaches are not standing in the platform of the passenger station. The train, or at least its leading coaches, is standing on what is effectively a short length of single line between the (new) passenger station, and the depot, which includes a platform, which now appears to be disused, but where we boarded the train to Boat of Garten in the early eighties. It seems to me an odd place to leave the coaches. Maybe the Royal Scotsman train is just too long for the run-round loop. I don't know how this short length of single line is operated. There's no signal box or fixed running signals at the passenger station. The loop points seem to be worked from ground frames at each end of the loop. In the old station (the one I used in 80-81) there is a signal box and fixed signals, and they appear to operate Electric Token between there and Boat of Garten. But I don't understand how the short single line to the passenger station is worked. At the end of the run-round loop in the passenger station, where I might expect starting signals, there is instead a notice saying to STOP - Obtain instructions before proceeding. Maybe they work One Engine in Steam (or "One Train Only" as it's now called). Or maybe some weird modern system that I won't begin to understand. Anyway, however the line is operated, it does seem an odd place to leave a set of coaches, especially a set with people working in them, and maybe a few passengers as well for all I know. So I'm wondering if the crew of 60103 thought their train was in the station, and the reason they were going so fast was because they thought they still had a hundred yards or so to go before they reached it. In which case this is rather like the much more serious 1975 accident at Lunan Bay. (https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/DoE_LunanBay1975.pdf) (In that case a class 40, going to assist a failed class 47-hauled East Coast express collided with the train, because the driver believed the train was five miles further south at Letham Grange. Despite an emergency brake application, the engine was still doing 25 m.p.h. when it hit the express, severely damaging its last coach (a Mark 2d). There were a lot of injuries in that coach and one fatality. The secondman of the Class 40 was also severely injured when he jumped from the engine. The root cause was that the guard of the express, an experienced man who knew the road well, had inexplicably told the signalman the train had failed at Letham Grange, when he meant to say "Lunan Bay". No doubt he's since gone to his grave still regretting that mistake.)

 

[kje7812]

Rule book I understand is stop at 6 feet, draw up to 2 feet then couple.

Mainline maybe, not necessarily the case with heritage railways.
In fact, a quite a few drivers I know are of the opinion that stopping short and then drawing forward is more likely to cause problems than not with steam.

 

[Lost property]

Interesting though some of the posts are with regard to the technical aspects, to be honest, I'm far more interested in, eventually, learning what the causal factors were and how Human Factors induced this incident.

 

[DarloRich]

have NRM issued any statement thus far?

 

[John Bishop]

Interesting though some of the posts are with regard to the technical aspects, to be honest, I'm far more interested in, eventually, learning what the causal factors were and how Human Factors induced this incident.

Perhaps if the fireman had used a more clear, unambiguous statement like “slow down” for example rather than “gentle” which most probably got lost in the ambient footplate noise and thus not triggered any response from the driver.

 

[Lost property]

Perhaps if the fireman had used a more clear, unambiguous statement like “slow down” for example rather than “gentle” which most probably got lost in the ambient footplate noise and thus not triggered any response from the driver.

That is one possibility but, one of the prime facets of H. F. is, that, the more you delve, the more emerges . It's very convenient, at times, to simply attribute blame based on initial / surface impressions, as well as trying to hide / distract from the underlying issues which may not be obvious until they are revealed.

As for ambiguity, the RAF used to produce, and still do, excellent Fight Safety posters one classic showing two engineers using a hammer for some percussive engineering, one saying " when I nod me head, hit it ! "

 

[BRX]

The first thing that occurs to me is that these coaches are not standing in the platform of the passenger station. The train, or at least its leading coaches, is standing on what is effectively a short length of single line between the (new) passenger station, and the depot, which includes a platform, which now appears to be disused, but where we boarded the train to Boat of Garten in the early eighties. It seems to me an odd place to leave the coaches. Maybe the Royal Scotsman train is just too long for the run-round loop.

At least the first couple of carriages are beyond the platform end and beyond the points that give access to the run-around loop, as others have mentioned. The back of the train is somewhere about where I've drawn the red arrow, I think.



The platform at Aviemore is quite a long one. So it does seem odd that the carriages were sitting in that position, and I would take a punt that they aren't usually, and this will turn out to be a contributing factor.

The Royal Scotsman visits the strathspey railway regularly - so the process of it entering the Strathspey platform from the mainline (ie from the south), and then having a strathspey loco hooked up at the northern end is one that happens often.

This video shows the Royal Scotsman train departing from the Strathspey platform at Aviemore, for a trip along the line last year.

It seems to demonstrate that the RS rake easily fits on the platform, clear of the run-around loop. Obviously something was different on Friday, that meant the coaches were in a different position.

 

[Robin Procter]

Perhaps if the fireman had used a more clear, unambiguous statement like “slow down” for example rather than “gentle” which most probably got lost in the ambient footplate noise and thus not triggered any response from the driver.

.... Firemen and Drivers on steam locos usually use hand or arm signals to each other which, as a crew, they are totally familiar with. That is how I have witnessed it when riding on the footplate. They might speak as well but hand/arm signals are more reliable.

While at very slow speeds such as when shunting or coupling, a steam loco just glides and is very quiet indeed.

 

[Gateway66]

At least the first couple of carriages are beyond the platform end and beyond the points that give access to the run-around loop, as others have mentioned. The back of the train is somewhere about where I've drawn the red arrow, I think.

View attachment 143953

The platform at Aviemore is quite a long one. So it does seem odd that the carriages were sitting in that position, and I would take a punt that they aren't usually, and this will turn out to be a contributing factor.

The Royal Scotsman visits the strathspey railway regularly - so the process of it entering the Strathspey platform from the mainline (ie from the south), and then having a strathspey loco hooked up at the northern end is one that happens often.

This video shows the Royal Scotsman train departing from the Strathspey platform at Aviemore, for a trip along the line last year.

It seems to demonstrate that the RS rake easily fits on the platform, clear of the run-around loop. Obviously something was different on Friday, that meant the coaches were in a different position.

The attached video seems to be when the train reverses into Strathspey and the 66 is kept outside the crossing gates.
In this instance the train drove in and going by pictures had to clear the back end points for the 37 to attach so it would be farther down the platform than in the video.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

Video of the incident

https://twitter.com/AlastairDalton/status/1708414414800482478?t=T-K1hze2v77Eragi-ADh-Q&s=19

Looking at that video, you can clearly see three people standing on the coach end where the coupling was to take place, looks like dressed in normal clothes, should they have even been there during that particular type of movement?

 

[TreacleMiller]

Looking at that video, you can clearly see three people standing on the coach end where the coupling was to take place, looks like dressed in normal clothes, should they have even been there during that particular type of movement?

No, unless this line magically doesn't need to follow the rulebook..

Carries a bit more than 5mph based on that video.. Whoever was controlling that movement is at fault.

 

[chuff chuff]

I'm more interested on how many people were on the footplate at the time.

 

[12C]

Looking at that video, you can clearly see three people standing on the coach end where the coupling was to take place, looks like dressed in normal clothes, should they have even been there during that particular type of movement?

I’m always astounded that in this day and age people are still allowed in that open veranda on Royal Scotsman. Considering that on most tours you’d be sent back to your seat for just standing near an open droplight.