UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[Greybeard33]

It would need wardens, who would need paying, to enforce the parking bays or people will just park where they want. It would also need a parking permit system which is also going to cost money.

There is nothing new about residents' parking restrictions or the need for some level of enforcement. Most people like to have good relations with their neighbours and to avoid conflicts over parking.

 

[greyman42]

There is nothing new about residents' parking restrictions or the need for some level of enforcement. Most people like to have good relations with their neighbours and to avoid conflicts over parking.

There is nowhere near the present number of parking restrictions compared to what would be needed for these kind of restrictions.

 

[jon0844]

The Daily Telegraph has an article today regarding insufficient motorway charging points and the measures being taken to avoid 'charge rage'. Yes, it is probably hyped up, but there does seem to be concern that there are problems in trying to increase capacity, and I assume that if they can't get sufficient power to the service stations, there may not be a supply available off-motorway.

Motorway service stations hiring staff to police surging levels of EV ‘charge rage’

Moto hires staff to manage queues and prevent conflicts over limited charging points

www.telegraph.co.uk

My rage would come from the cost of motorway service station charging, and like petrol or diesel I'd be looking for somewhere else.

I get that it's convenient not to need to follow a SatNav directing you to a Tesco petrol station, or whatever, but the cost saving isn't trivial and I expect with EVs there's less chance of a queue.

 

[Noddy]

The Daily Telegraph has an article today regarding insufficient motorway charging points and the measures being taken to avoid 'charge rage'. Yes, it is probably hyped up, but there does seem to be concern that there are problems in trying to increase capacity, and I assume that if they can't get sufficient power to the service stations, there may not be a supply available off-motorway.

Motorway service stations hiring staff to police surging levels of EV ‘charge rage’

Moto hires staff to manage queues and prevent conflicts over limited charging points

www.telegraph.co.uk

It terms of getting connections to motorway service areas there are certainly issues and the CEO of Moto seems to be running a one man press campaign which is regularly picked up by the media, but is actually aimed at the DNOs and government. For example this article from early August where he’s basically said exactly the same thing to Radio 4 and it’s been reported by other media outlets:

Electric car owners issued dire warning by motorway services boss - 'It's a major problem'

Ken McMeikan, chief executive of motorway service station operator Moto Hospitality, warned that there is not enough capacity to power charging points for electric vehicles.

uk.news.yahoo.com

In terms of the supply issue it can often be a lot easier to get supplies to new charging locations (not motorway areas), as you can choose to site them at or close to existing electricity infrastructure, where the are no or fewer supply constraints. The problem with existing motorway services is they are in a fixed location, typically fairly remote from major electricity supplies. The classic example we saw issues at last Christmas was Tebay, sited as it is on a piece of moorland, but extremely popular with people who like a farm shop rather than a Burger King. However, we are starting to see larger numbers go in at services - for example Ionity are increasing the number at South Mimms from 6 to 24 and Exeter is expanding to over 50 (Tesla and Gridserve). The Moto CEO just need to keep his campaign going to force the DNOs to constantly improve.

 

[bspahh]

I’m not sure that lamppost charger are that expensive. Happy to be corrected but they tap into the existing electricity network so don’t need massive infrastructure upgrades (unlike fast DC charging stations which usually require new high powered grid connections and very expensive kit). It’s widely report they take about 2-3 hours to install, and according to this article from 2017 installations were costing £1000 per installation.

A £1,000 conversion can turn lamp posts into electric car chargers

EV owners will need to purchase a specialist smart charging cable, which holds all metering and billing information that is then relayed to the user's mobile electricity contract.

www.thisismoney.co.uk

Now obviously we’ve had massive inflation since 2017 and some upgrade work may be required in some areas which would increase the cost. But 30 million is still enough to pay for 1000s per year. And note from the article in 2017 the funding for ORCS was just £2.5million. And that’s just the government funded ones. Some private sector companies will pay 100% of the costs (although these are typically more expensive networks).

I suspect the main issue as to why there are ‘deserts’ outside of London is, if we are being kind, inertia from councils and if we are unkind because they are actively opposing installation of onstreet charging. For example York Councils EV charging strategy relies entirely on a series of hubs across the city because the council policy makers believe it gives a better user experience (no idea why they have this idea) and they also appear to be very strongly against street furniture in the pavement or road.

https://www.york.gov.uk/downloads/file/6264/city-of-york-public-ev-charging-strategy

Those issues are opinions of the council, and to me don’t appear to be based in (practical) reality. In many authorities I imagine there are folk in positions of authority who are EV sceptics, or simply have other priorities, or don’t have the same pressure from their constituents as in London and this is why we haven’t seen the same levels of roll out. But it’s coming, and quickly (except for York!).

Possible is a charity focussing on "climate action". It wrote a report on the potential problems from the infrastructure for on-street charging of electric vehicles, so it doesn't block the pavement.

Streetspace Invaders: Mitigating the growing risk that EV charging poses to scarce pedestrian space — Possible

This report, written in collaboration with inclusive cycling charity Wheels for Wellbeing , warns that the rollout of public infrastructure for electric vehicle (EV) charging points could significantly impact Disabled people and jeopardise targets to increase walking and wheeling trips.

www.wearepossible.org

 

[bluenoxid]

Talking of charge rage, I had to laugh at a post on Nextdoor, where someone was complaining about an electric car constantly holding a space. The original poster took quite a few pictures but whilst the red mist had descended had failed to notice that the electric car was from a car club and was parked in the car club space.

 

[The Ham]

I’m not sure that lamppost charger are that expensive. Happy to be corrected but they tap into the existing electricity network so don’t need massive infrastructure upgrades (unlike fast DC charging stations which usually require new high powered grid connections and very expensive kit). It’s widely report they take about 2-3 hours to install, and according to this article from 2017 installations were costing £1000 per installation.

A £1,000 conversion can turn lamp posts into electric car chargers

EV owners will need to purchase a specialist smart charging cable, which holds all metering and billing information that is then relayed to the user's mobile electricity contract.

www.thisismoney.co.uk

Now obviously we’ve had massive inflation since 2017 and some upgrade work may be required in some areas which would increase the cost. But 30 million is still enough to pay for 1000s per year. And note from the article in 2017 the funding for ORCS was just £2.5million. And that’s just the government funded ones. Some private sector companies will pay 100% of the costs (although these are typically more expensive networks).

I suspect the main issue as to why there are ‘deserts’ outside of London is, if we are being kind, inertia from councils and if we are unkind because they are actively opposing installation of onstreet charging. For example York Councils EV charging strategy relies entirely on a series of hubs across the city because the council policy makers believe it gives a better user experience (no idea why they have this idea) and they also appear to be very strongly against street furniture in the pavement or road.

https://www.york.gov.uk/downloads/file/6264/city-of-york-public-ev-charging-strategy

Those issues are opinions of the council, and to me don’t appear to be based in (practical) reality. In many authorities I imagine there are folk in positions of authority who are EV sceptics, or simply have other priorities, or don’t have the same pressure from their constituents as in London and this is why we haven’t seen the same levels of roll out. But it’s coming, and quickly (except for York!).

One thing to note, not all councils have much in the way of housing which doesn't have private parking. Where I live, yes there's several flats with their own parking courts or the need to park on street, however they are very much in the minority.

For the time being they could be dealt with by people using public infrastructure (as it's unlikely that they would own an EV). Given time they will need to be resolved, however for now it could mean that here is seen as a desert for on street chargers.

The one thing I would highlight, even at £3,000 per charger in a lamp columns, that doesn't allow for the 60/40 split in government/private funding - which could increase that number to 1,667.

That works out at 1 lamp post charger for each 160 BEV purchased in 2022. At first glance that sounds very bad. However there a few factors to consider. Those numbers of lamp post chargers are probably lower than actual, as there'll be some 100% private funded if nothing else. Those buying EV's either have a home charging solution or have worked out some other way of charging (say, at work) so don't need one to be installed (although may well find it preferably if one was installed).

Given chargers need replacing fairly infrequently (and once installed they are fairly cheap to replace, so will be generally covered by the charging network) there's a good chance that 7 years from now that there'll be a reasonable number (especially given all new homes, including flats, now have to have a charger - so that's going to reduce the numbers needing other on street charging).

 

[Enthusiast]

It would need wardens, who would need paying, to enforce the parking bays or people will just park where they want. It would also need a parking permit system which is also going to cost money.

But more fundamentally than that, it would need a parking space to be available in front of every house. In many places this simply isn't the case. Many roads are too narrow to allow parking on both sides. This immediately means that only 50% of the houses can have an "allocated" parking space. In many locations no on-road parking is permitted at all. And that's before you begin to count the numbers of cars per household. The idea that everybody can park outside their house, provided some nice white lines are painted and notices put up is, like much of the "strategy" (such that it is) to accommodate EVs, pure fantasy.

 

[Greybeard33]

But more fundamentally than that, it would need a parking space to be available in front of every house. In many places this simply isn't the case. Many roads are too narrow to allow parking on both sides. This immediately means that only 50% of the houses can have an "allocated" parking space. In many locations no on-road parking is permitted at all. And that's before you begin to count the numbers of cars per household. The idea that everybody can park outside their house, provided some nice white lines are painted and notices put up is, like much of the "strategy" (such that it is) to accommodate EVs, pure fantasy.

Indeed so. But I was commenting on suggestions that on-street chargers will be needed for every EV that is not kept in a private driveway. That is equally pure fantasy.

In terms of getting connections to motorway service areas there are certainly issues and the CEO of Moto seems to be running a one man press campaign which is regularly picked up by the media, but is actually aimed at the DNOs and government. For example this article from early August where he’s basically said exactly the same thing to Radio 4 and it’s been reported by other media outlets:

There is a Telegraph story today in which Ken McMeikan, Moto CEO, steps up his campaign for uprated grid connections to service areas.

Britain’s biggest motorway service station provider has brought in marshals to police “charge rage” among electric vehicle drivers battling for access to plug-in points.

Moto chief executive Ken McMeikan warned the UK’s motorway service stations are facing growing “public disorder” due to a lack of grid connections preventing him from installing enough car chargers to meet the surge in demand.

It means many motorists are facing long waits, with angry drivers confronting staff and each other over the lack of charging facilities.

Mr McMeikan said the delays made drivers “very angry and stressed” and warned of the growing risk of “charge rage” on Britain’s motorways.

He said: “People need to drive their EV cars around without range anxiety, without long queues and without public disorder but at peak seasonal times we are experiencing all this now.”

Moto, which runs 49 motorway services around the UK, has already introduced marshalls at Exeter, Rugby and Wetherby to manage EV queues and prevent conflicts during busy periods.

Mr McMeikan, 58, who drives an EV himself, said he had told the government of the problem and warned ministers that public disorder incidents would grow.

He told The Telegraph: “I’ve been saying to them that the grid does not have sufficient capacity right now to deliver the power we need at the time we need it.

“If we don’t get that amount of power guaranteed, then in coming years every Christmas, every Easter, every summer holiday and peak bank holiday will be the equivalent of when we have a fuel crisis on petrol and diesel.”

Mr McMeikan said he had repeatedly told Jesse Norman, the minister for transport decarbonisation, that making EV motorists queue would put his staff and motorists at risk of “charge rage.”

“I’ve had conversations with Jesse Norman, with special advisers and with National Highways who are responsible for managing the motorway network. They are all responsible for ensuring chargers are being deployed on the motorways but they are not doing it. They are not addressing the fundamental issue, which is electrical power.”

Motorway service stations hiring staff to police surging levels of EV ‘charge rage’

Moto hires staff to manage queues and prevent conflicts over limited charging points

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[jon0844]

A lot of people seem to think they have some God given right to park on a public road, and in some cases right outside their doorstep (hence putting down cones, or putting notes on car windows - sometimes even keying vehicles and doing other damage).

I am sure that we'll see more power points added to street lighting, and on some roads where street lights are very widely spaced apart it could require more poles to be added - which given the directional nature of LEDs, could improve lighting on some streets that were retrofitted and now leave large areas of darkness. A double win.

But, ultimately, people who have a car and want their own parking space have the option of buying a property with a space, or adapting their front garden to have off-road parking. If they can't do that, that's hardly any different to wishing you had another bedroom or a larger living room.. you'd probably have to look at moving to something more suitable.

 

[Greybeard33]

There is a "shock horror" story in the Guardian (which does not usually participate in the anti-EV culture war of the right wing press) about "soaring" insurance premiums for EVs:

‘The quotes were £5,000 or more’: electric vehicle owners face soaring insurance costs

Drivers who ditched petrol and diesel to help save the planet face huge price rises in premiums

www.theguardian.com

In the [Tesla UK] Facebook group, members share stories of horror renewal quotes, with increases ranging from 60% (up to £1,100) to a staggering 940% (a jump from £447 to £4,661, according to a screengrab shared by one driver).

...all motorists face soaring insurance costs, with prices said to be at an all-time high. A recent cost of living bulletin from the Office for National Statistics revealed that the price of car insurance – which for many Britons is one of their biggest household bills – is up by 52.9% in the last 12 months.

However, this average masks bigger increases for electric car owners, according to Confused.com. Its figures, derived from quotes, show that insurance premiums for electric vehicles are 72% – or £402 – higher than this time last year, at a typical £959. Meanwhile, for petrol and diesel car drivers, the increase is 29%, or £192, taking the figure to £848.

Louise Thomas, a motor expert at Confused.com, says: “Despite electric vehicles becoming more common, they are still the minority on UK roads, and insurers have less experience setting premiums for these types of cars.”

With expensive features and upgrades now standard for electric cars, the cost of repairs is higher, too, which is having a knock-on effect on premiums, she adds.

Analysts say claims costs are 25% higher for electric cars, and that they also take about 14% longer to repair than a diesel or petrol equivalent. The cost and availability of parts is a factor, explains Paul Baxter, the chief executive of the new brand the Green Insurer. There is also concern around the batteries, and that damage, especially to the underside, can be expensive to fix.

“There’s also an issue around technology and skills in the repair networks,” Baxter says. Indeed, the Institute of the Motor Industry has predicted a shortage of about 16,000 electric vehicle-qualified mechanics come 2032. “They’ve not got to the stage they are with traditional cars in terms of expertise. If you dent a door, that’s straightforward, but if something has damaged the battery, in particular, they haven’t caught up with that.”

 

[Noddy]

One thing to note, not all councils have much in the way of housing which doesn't have private parking. Where I live, yes there's several flats with their own parking courts or the need to park on street, however they are very much in the minority.

For the time being they could be dealt with by people using public infrastructure (as it's unlikely that they would own an EV). Given time they will need to be resolved, however for now it could mean that here is seen as a desert for on street chargers.

The one thing I would highlight, even at £3,000 per charger in a lamp columns, that doesn't allow for the 60/40 split in government/private funding - which could increase that number to 1,667.

That works out at 1 lamp post charger for each 160 BEV purchased in 2022. At first glance that sounds very bad. However there a few factors to consider. Those numbers of lamp post chargers are probably lower than actual, as there'll be some 100% private funded if nothing else. Those buying EV's either have a home charging solution or have worked out some other way of charging (say, at work) so don't need one to be installed (although may well find it preferably if one was installed).

Given chargers need replacing fairly infrequently (and once installed they are fairly cheap to replace, so will be generally covered by the charging network) there's a good chance that 7 years from now that there'll be a reasonable number (especially given all new homes, including flats, now have to have a charger - so that's going to reduce the numbers needing other on street charging).

Yes I agree. But with regards to the numbers if they were costing £3000 each to install, £30 million (at the 60/40 split) would be 16 600 or so? Which is one in 16 EVs sold in 2022?

As you say that’s just for government funded on-street lamppost charging. Other low speed charging solutions are available.

And of course the other factor is that there will never be a need for 1:1 ratio because over 60% of houses in the UK have a drive/private parking, and you don’t need to have the cars on permanent charge. For example taking a car with a 200 mile range and annual 12000 mileage, if it was charged on an 80-20% cycle it would need 100 charges per year. So roughly speaking every three days. And probably less than this with more typical shorter daily commuting/longer occasional journey use cases.

 

[MotCO]

So roughly speaking every three days.

The problem occurs when everyone wants to charge up on the same day, for example, for the great summer getaway, Christmas Eve, Bank Holidays etc. While the average may be every 3 days, you cannot just meet the average, you need to meet the maximum demand, or else you will get 'charge rage' or whatever it's called today.

 

[AM9]

The problem occurs when everyone wants to charge up on the same day, for example, for the great summer getaway, Christmas Eve, Bank Holidays etc. While the average may be every 3 days, you cannot just meet the average, you need to meet the maximum demand, or else you will get 'charge rage' or whatever it's called today.

The "great summer getaway" isn't that different to most other weeks in the holiday period, (except if there are any northern towns where 'wakes weeks' are still observed. Peaks will occur though but it won't be one year (2030 maybe) when without warning the heavy demand suddenly pops up and surprises everybody, - just like those who participate in the mass exodus round the Exeter bypass don't all turn there up at the same time every year. High peaks in demand will be constrined firstly by programmed charging that chargers will use to smooth the peaks, aided by demand management pricing to encourage users to spread the charging over the previous few days, (wait for claims form the edge cases who will finish their last day's work with an empty battery and expect to drive 250 milles non-stop from 06:00 the next day).

 

[MotCO]

High peaks in demand will be constrined firstly by programmed charging that chargers will use to smooth the peaks, aided by demand management pricing to encourage users to spread the charging over the previous few days,

I was thinking more about users trying to find a charger to link up to overnight, rather than the availability of electricity in the supply network. It also assumes foresight by users, and I'm not sure how forward-thinking some members of the public are.

 

[paul1609]

But you don't "look for chargers". You put the journey into one of several nav options that integrate charging stops for you, similar to the built in solution on my Tesla. I literally never worry about charging in either the Tesla or the Kia, I just do what the nav tells me.
Most charging hubs are away from motorway service areas (because they are often in the middle of nowhere with poor power connections designed before high powered car chargers were even in our imagination).
You didn't like the MG4, fair enough but there are loads of other options.

I'm not really sure where I'm going wrong then. It may be that I'm in the market for a sub £35k car or it may be that I'm starting my journeys from out in the sticks but on a journey from my house in Romney Marsh to Cockermouth in Cumbria the MG4 is saying that I have a choice or Brampton hut Services a14/a1 junction 128 miles or Peterborough services 142 miles for the first charge. Both are way earlier than I'd stop in an Ice car. The only alternatives are way off routes in town centres. Like I say I'd normally stop in one of the just off the A1 villages but none of those have fast chargers.
The second charge is even worse being a selection of grotty exposed petrol stations or Ferrybridge services.
As to the MG4 I did the long test on that on the grounds it was the best budget eV. The kia I though was as good but delivery was over a year. The vw was discounted on a short test drive. The Renault I couldn't even get a test drive and I'm not paying that much money for an astra even if it has been converted to an eV.

 

[AM9]

I was thinking more about users trying to find a charger to link up to overnight, rather than the availability of electricity in the supply network. It also assumes foresight by users, and I'm not sure how forward-thinking some members of the public are.

Maybe not in the first dash away with their need for public charging, but they soon learn, - well, most of them!

 

[Bantamzen]

Surely the terraced house "problem" can be solved without massive investment in on-street charging points? Just a bit of paint to mark individual residents-only parking bays outside each house. Plus a cantilever bracket attached to the front of the house to swing the charging cable out above the pavement, so avoiding a trip hazard.

Simples!

What about homes with multiple cars, or what about risk of these being vandalised? I could imagine them being like curry to a drunk for kids. And can you imagine the arguments between neighbours?

I’m not sure that lamppost charger are that expensive. Happy to be corrected but they tap into the existing electricity network so don’t need massive infrastructure upgrades (unlike fast DC charging stations which usually require new high powered grid connections and very expensive kit). It’s widely report they take about 2-3 hours to install, and according to this article from 2017 installations were costing £1000 per installation.

A £1,000 conversion can turn lamp posts into electric car chargers

EV owners will need to purchase a specialist smart charging cable, which holds all metering and billing information that is then relayed to the user's mobile electricity contract.

www.thisismoney.co.uk

Now obviously we’ve had massive inflation since 2017 and some upgrade work may be required in some areas which would increase the cost. But 30 million is still enough to pay for 1000s per year. And note from the article in 2017 the funding for ORCS was just £2.5million. And that’s just the government funded ones. Some private sector companies will pay 100% of the costs (although these are typically more expensive networks).

I suspect the main issue as to why there are ‘deserts’ outside of London is, if we are being kind, inertia from councils and if we are unkind because they are actively opposing installation of onstreet charging. For example York Councils EV charging strategy relies entirely on a series of hubs across the city because the council policy makers believe it gives a better user experience (no idea why they have this idea) and they also appear to be very strongly against street furniture in the pavement or road.

https://www.york.gov.uk/downloads/file/6264/city-of-york-public-ev-charging-strategy

Those issues are opinions of the council, and to me don’t appear to be based in (practical) reality. In many authorities I imagine there are folk in positions of authority who are EV sceptics, or simply have other priorities, or don’t have the same pressure from their constituents as in London and this is why we haven’t seen the same levels of roll out. But it’s coming, and quickly (except for York!).

Lamposts could be a partial solution but how many of those quoted 7.5 million could actually be practically used? Many will be in positions where you would not want cars to stop, say in the middle of major roads or on bends or even positioned on the house side of pavements. And as you can clearly see in one of those pictures the number of cars way outstrips the number of lamposts. So realistically even if conversions were around a grand for some, I suspect a heck of a lot more would be needed for the majority of road users. Then there is the cost of maintenance, its a nailed on guarantee that some will get damaged or fail requiring additional cost. Who is going to cover these? Probably cash strapped local councils, meaning that in time people will be waking up to find that a faulty or damaged charging point leaves unable to get to work. And there will always be those disputes over them as above, as well of the risk of cables lying around everywhere, because you know someone will end up with metres of cable because there isn't a lampost outside their house!

I don't raise issues like this to be awkward or because I'm against them, I raise them because all too often solutions are chased without anyone actually thinking abut how to make them work. As an example I recently saw a series of Tweets from an academic who was besides himself because people in this country weren't rushing out in their millions to buy EVs. They must all be "refusenicks" he concluded, climate change deniers clearly. It was repeatedly pointed out to him by many people that the main reason was cost, something for which he had no answer.

Pushing solutions simply to satisfy targets is the wrong way around to do things. Get the infrastructure in and working first, then push the solution out.

 

[Noddy]

What about homes with multiple cars, or what about risk of these being vandalised? I could imagine them being like curry to a drunk for kids. And can you imagine the arguments between neighbours?


Lamposts could be a partial solution but how many of those quoted 7.5 million could actually be practically used? Many will be in positions where you would not want cars to stop, say in the middle of major roads or on bends or even positioned on the house side of pavements. And as you can clearly see in one of those pictures the number of cars way outstrips the number of lamposts. So realistically even if conversions were around a grand for some, I suspect a heck of a lot more would be needed for the majority of road users. Then there is the cost of maintenance, its a nailed on guarantee that some will get damaged or fail requiring additional cost. Who is going to cover these? Probably cash strapped local councils, meaning that in time people will be waking up to find that a faulty or damaged charging point leaves unable to get to work. And there will always be those disputes over them as above, as well of the risk of cables lying around everywhere, because you know someone will end up with metres of cable because there isn't a lampost outside their house!

I don't raise issues like this to be awkward or because I'm against them, I raise them because all too often solutions are chased without anyone actually thinking abut how to make them work. As an example I recently saw a series of Tweets from an academic who was besides himself because people in this country weren't rushing out in their millions to buy EVs. They must all be "refusenicks" he concluded, climate change deniers clearly. It was repeatedly pointed out to him by many people that the main reason was cost, something for which he had no answer.

Pushing solutions simply to satisfy targets is the wrong way around to do things. Get the infrastructure in and working first, then push the solution out.

I have to say I really don’t think you’ve actually done any research on this. As previously stated initial cost is borne by either government/private sector split (60/40) or 100% by the private sector. If you’d read the Ubitricity link I posted earlier they do all the ongoing management and maintenance of the system. There will be undoubtedly be some initial cost to the local authorities due the deployment phase (project management-tendering, asset selection, data transfer etc) but this will be presumably be recouped in the grant money from central government as part of the application (unless the application is unsuccessful I guess). There might be a small amount of ongoing officer costs liaising over time with the private company over things like usage stats or issues or resident feedback, and tendering new contracts for the existing infrastructure, but basically the company runs and maintains the network on behalf of the authority with the cost of repairs falling on the company and ultimately the user.

I'm not really sure where I'm going wrong then. It may be that I'm in the market for a sub £35k car or it may be that I'm starting my journeys from out in the sticks but on a journey from my house in Romney Marsh to Cockermouth in Cumbria the MG4 is saying that I have a choice or Brampton hut Services a14/a1 junction 128 miles or Peterborough services 142 miles for the first charge. Both are way earlier than I'd stop in an Ice car. The only alternatives are way off routes in town centres. Like I say I'd normally stop in one of the just off the A1 villages but none of those have fast chargers.
The second charge is even worse being a selection of grotty exposed petrol stations or Ferrybridge services.
As to the MG4 I did the long test on that on the grounds it was the best budget eV. The kia I though was as good but delivery was over a year. The vw was discounted on a short test drive. The Renault I couldn't even get a test drive and I'm not paying that much money for an astra even if it has been converted to an eV.

I know you’ve said said on a few occasions you don’t want to stop at expensive services, and I totally get that from a petrol/diesel price perspective but as far as I can tell currently all the major fast charging networks (eg Tesla, Gridserve, Ionity etc) currently charge the same price regardless of location. There are some variables (eg Tesla charge more at peak times, Gridserve charge less for slow AC charging), but generally it will be the same price regardless of location. So then the only reason to avoid the services is if you don’t want to pay for food, or you think there might be queuing (and to be fair my experience of Ionity Peterborough is that it is fairly busy).

 

[Bantamzen]

I have to say I really don’t think you’ve actually done any research on this. As previously stated initial cost is borne by either government/private sector split (60/40) or 100% by the private sector. If you’d read the Ubitricity link I posted earlier they do all the ongoing management and maintenance of the system. There will be undoubtedly be some initial cost to the local authorities due the deployment phase (project management-tendering, asset selection, data transfer etc) but this will be presumably be recouped in the grant money from central government as part of the application (unless the application is unsuccessful I guess). There might be a small amount of ongoing officer costs liaising over time with the private company over things like usage stats or issues or resident feedback, and tendering new contracts for the existing infrastructure, but basically the company runs and maintains the network on behalf of the authority with the cost of repairs falling on the company and ultimately the user.

I think you are putting way too much faith in governments and the private sector in all of this. Government can flip policy on a whim, and indeed are looking like they are going to do just that on some policies. And the private sector, well I'm sure you realise that there is no such thing as a free lunch. If they are going to be responsible for the installation and maintenance of millions more charging points, that cost will get passed on to the consumers.

 

[Noddy]

I think you are putting way too much faith in governments and the private sector in all of this. Government can flip policy on a whim, and indeed are looking like they are going to do just that on some policies.

I think it very unlikely that we are going to less EV friendly government in the next few years.

And the private sector, well I'm sure you realise that there is no such thing as a free lunch. If they are going to be responsible for the installation and maintenance of millions more charging points, that cost will get passed on to the consumers.

Of course it will get passed to customers, just like if a private home unit breaks the customer will pay to have it fixed/replaced. But given these lamppost units are fairly cheap, that the cost will be built into the price companies charge (so it’s spread across many users) and the fact its been working perfectly well and relatively cheaply (24-40pence per kWh) in London and other places for the last 6 or so years I really don’t see what the issue is. All that needs to happen is that it gets expanded out, and authorities such as York pull their finger out and get on with it. It’s not going to cost them much.

 

[paul1609]

I know you’ve said said on a few occasions you don’t want to stop at expensive services, and I totally get that from a petrol/diesel price perspective but as far as I can tell currently all the major fast charging networks (eg Tesla, Gridserve, Ionity etc) currently charge the same price regardless of location. There are some variables (eg Tesla charge more at peak times, Gridserve charge less for slow AC charging), but generally it will be the same price regardless of location. So then the only reason to avoid the services is if you don’t want to pay for food, or you think there might be queuing (and to be fair my experience of Ionity Peterborough is that it is fairly busy).

Its probably just me but if I take a break on a 300 mile journey it will be a 10 minute stretch around a churchyard or along the river then a sandwich in a local cafe, shop or co-op, further north it would be a break in Richmonds market square or a walk along the river swale. It most definitely will not be queuing to get in to a Macdonalds car park then charger and then going in to a costa coffee shop to be charged a fiver for a cup of coffee or £3 for a bottle of coke. My ICE cars have eliminated motorway service areas I leave home full and if i need to refuel it will be at one of the just off the motorway supermarkets. I don't want to buy a car that puts me back at the mercy of Costa or macDonalds or standing around aimlessly in a lorry park for 30 mins.

 

[AM9]

Its probably just me but if I take a break on a 300 mile journey it will be a 10 minute stretch around a churchyard or along the river then a sandwich in a local cafe, shop or co-op, further north it would be a break in Richmonds market square or a walk along the river swale. It most definitely will not be queuing to get in to a Macdonalds car park then charger and then going in to a costa coffee shop to be charged a fiver for a cup of coffee or £3 for a bottle of coke. My ICE cars have eliminated motorway service areas I leave home full and if i need to refuel it will be at one of the just off the motorway supermarkets. I don't want to buy a car that puts me back at the mercy of Costa or macDonalds or standing around aimlessly in a lorry park for 30 mins.

So what is your suggestion for decarbonising road vehicles, - and when will it be achieved by those suggestions?

 

[MotCO]

There is a "shock horror" story in the Guardian (which does not usually participate in the anti-EV culture war of the right wing press) about "soaring" insurance premiums for EVs:

‘The quotes were £5,000 or more’: electric vehicle owners face soaring insurance costs

Drivers who ditched petrol and diesel to help save the planet face huge price rises in premiums

www.theguardian.com

At the other end of the spectrum, the Telegraph is reporting that John Lewis is to cease offering car insurance for EVs

John Lewis stops insuring electric cars over repair cost fears

Susceptibility of batteries to damage spurs company to pause EV cover

www.telegraph.co.uk

John Lewis stops insuring electric cars over repair cost fears​

John Lewis has stopped offering insurance to electric car drivers amid fears over the cost of repairs.
The department store’s lending business John Lewis Financial Services has put a temporary pause on customers taking out cover or renewing existing policies on battery-power vehicles while its underwriter, Covéa, analyses risks and costs.
Insurers are facing rising costs for vehicle repairs, which are eating into profits. According to the Association of British Insurers (ABI), vehicle repair costs rose 33pc over the first quarter of 2023 compared to 2022, helping to push annual premiums to record highs.
Electric cars can be particularly expensive to repair, costing around a quarter more to fix on average, compared to a petrol or diesel vehicle, according to Thatcham Research, the motor industry’s research centre.
Particular worries surround the batteries, which are commonly mounted on the floor of the vehicle. This placement can make it more likely that it will be damaged even in a minor accident such as mounting a kerb.

According to Copart, an auction platform, around half the low-mileage electric vehicles it has salvaged have suffered minor battery damage.
The battery is also generally the most expensive part of an electric car and can account for as much as 50pc of the vehicle’s value, costing between £14,200 and £29,500.

Experts also say there is a shortage of technicians with the skills to carry out repairs.
According to the Institute of the Motor Industry (IMI), 39,000 UK mechanics are now qualified to work on electric cars. However, the IMI said there could be a shortage of around 16,000 qualified mechanics by 2032 as electric vehicle numbers rise.
According to figures from the Society of Motor Manufacturers & Traders (SMMT), 193,221 electric vehicles were registered in the UK over the year to August – a 40pc rise compared to the same period the prior year.

A spokesman for John Lewis Financial services said: “Our underwriter has temporarily paused offering new policies and renewals on fully electric vehicles while they analyse the risks and costs entailed.”
It comes after Rishi Sunak said earlier this month he would delay a planned ban on sales of new petrol cars from 2030 to 2035 as he scaled back a range of prior environmental pledges.
A spokesman for the ABI said: “Our members fully support the roll-out of electric vehicles and efforts to transition to net zero. Whether to offer insurance, and at what price, is a commercial decision for insurers based on their risk appetite.”
Covéa was approached for comment.

 

[Greybeard33]

At the other end of the spectrum, the Telegraph is reporting that John Lewis is to cease offering car insurance for EVs

According to the Guardian article I quoted:

The John Lewis and Vitality electric car policies are underwritten by Covéa Insurance but it declined to comment on its rationale. However, John Lewis said: “Our underwriter has temporarily paused offering new policies and renewals on fully electric vehicles while they analyse the risks and costs entailed.”

 

[MotCO]

According to the Guardian article I quoted:

Apols - must have missed that

 

[The Ham]

Yes I agree. But with regards to the numbers if they were costing £3000 each to install, £30 million (at the 60/40 split) would be 16 600 or so? Which is one in 16 EVs sold in 2022?

As you say that’s just for government funded on-street lamppost charging. Other low speed charging solutions are available.

And of course the other factor is that there will never be a need for 1:1 ratio because over 60% of houses in the UK have a drive/private parking, and you don’t need to have the cars on permanent charge. For example taking a car with a 200 mile range and annual 12000 mileage, if it was charged on an 80-20% cycle it would need 100 charges per year. So roughly speaking every three days. And probably less than this with more typical shorter daily commuting/longer occasional journey use cases.

Sorry missed a 0, so yes 1:16 is highly likely to be more than enough (as long as they are positioned where they are needed - which may not be spread evenly).

 

[Noddy]

Its probably just me but if I take a break on a 300 mile journey it will be a 10 minute stretch around a churchyard or along the river then a sandwich in a local cafe, shop or co-op, further north it would be a break in Richmonds market square or a walk along the river swale. It most definitely will not be queuing to get in to a Macdonalds car park then charger and then going in to a costa coffee shop to be charged a fiver for a cup of coffee or £3 for a bottle of coke. My ICE cars have eliminated motorway service areas I leave home full and if i need to refuel it will be at one of the just off the motorway supermarkets. I don't want to buy a car that puts me back at the mercy of Costa or macDonalds or standing around aimlessly in a lorry park for 30 mins.

That is a very unusual use case! However given how much planning it must take I’m surprised you haven’t spotted that that you could go the Shell Recharge facility at Buckden (a slight detour off the A14/A1 junction) and visit Buckden Tower, use the park, get food/drink at one of the pubs. The next stop is harder (currently) but I’d then aim for Wetherby and while this is a services, you could get something nicer at M&S, and there is access to public footpaths you could explore (nearby Hall and Grange to wonder to according to the OS map).

 

[paul1609]

That is a very unusual use case! However given how much planning it must take I’m surprised you haven’t spotted that that you could go the Shell Recharge facility at Buckden (a slight detour off the A14/A1 junction) and visit Buckden Tower, use the park, get food/drink at one of the pubs. The next stop is harder (currently) but I’d then aim for Wetherby and while this is a services, you could get something nicer at M&S, and there is access to public footpaths you could explore (nearby Hall and Grange to wonder to according to the OS map).

I'm afraid that Wetherby Services is one on my avoid at all costs lists with queues back on to the A1 and no car parking spaces often encountered. I've admittedly never charged there but the MG4 software doesnt seem to be optimistic that youd make it there from an 80% charge at Brampton Hut at 70 mph especially if you divert via the m18 to avoid the Doncaster bypass jam. Of course if your on fossil fuels Morris ons at Boroughbridge junction 48 with a nice town and riverside walk is just 15 mins further.

 

[trebor79]

I'm afraid that Wetherby Services is one on my avoid at all costs lists with queues back on to the A1 and no car parking spaces often encountered. I've admittedly never charged there but the MG4 software doesnt seem to be optimistic that youd make it there from an 80% charge at Brampton Hut at 70 mph especially if you divert via the m18 to avoid the Doncaster bypass jam. Of course if your on fossil fuels Morris ons at Boroughbridge junction 48 with a nice town and riverside walk is just 15 mins further.

I think you must have driven the smaller battery variant of the MG4. That's 132 miles which should be easily doable with an 80% charge.