South Devon Line Wrong Way Working

[dav-exe]

Hopefully not a stupid question, I was on the Devon Metro service headed to Paignton and we stopped in the loops at Dawlish Warren to let a XC service through, however as we left Dawlish Warren we crossed over to the Up Line to allow a GWR fast service to come past on the Down. We then returned to the Down after Teignmouth.

So, my question is, is this standard operating? Or did the signallers utilise the 2-way working to keep timings as far as possible (the fast services were all delayed that day). Wanted to ask as never had this before.

 

[irish_rail]

Hopefully not a stupid question, I was on the Devon Metro service headed to Paignton and we stopped in the loops at Dawlish Warren to let a XC service through, however as we left Dawlish Warren we crossed over to the Up Line to allow a GWR fast service to come past on the Down. We then returned to the Down after Teignmouth.

So, my question is, is this standard operating? Or did the signallers utilise the 2-way working to keep timings as far as possible (the fast services were all delayed that day). Wanted to ask as never had this before.

Yeah its not uncommon, happens generally in the evening when the up line is quieter. The train in question was about 25 late when it passed you, and its a happy medium where both trains are kept on the move. Nifty bit of signalling id say.

 

[dav-exe]

Yeah, definitely a good bit of signalling - good solution to lack of loops...plus much more interesting that sitting at Warren for another 20 mins

 

[dk1]

Quite regular and there were some booked workings. A green wrong line as you walk the wall catches my attention so am expecting it to happen.

 

[Master29]

Quite standard. I saw it the first time on the Dawlish beach cams and had to do a double take but have seen it a few times now. Maybe I should get out a bit more.

 

[uglymonkey]

In 2014, in the storm our train ( a 150) tried to go towards the tunnel after Dawlish as the waves were hitting us. Couldnt proceed as we could all hear the ballast being washed away in front of and under the train. After a wait for signal box Ok, driver changed ends and we reversed back up the down line to a crossover (might of even been Dawlish Warren) driver swoops again and we proceed down the up line and see if we can go through on that one. No go, we then ran back and terminated. In the night the washout occurred and I was on the bus for the next three months. So I' m sure the bi running is very useful in a variety of different situations.

 

[LAX54]

Quite regular and there were some booked workings. A green wrong line as you walk the wall catches my attention so am expecting it to happen.

Closer to home, Stowmarket not unknown for an up train to be signalled over to the down side, to allow a late running up road train to pass.

 

[dk1]

Closer to home, Stowmarket not unknown for an up train to be signalled over to the down side, to allow a late running up road train to pass.

Happened to me a few times at Chelmsford too.

 

[apinnard]

Closer to home, Stowmarket not unknown for an up train to be signalled over to the down side, to allow a late running up road train to pass.

Change back at Claydon, or Ipswich??

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Sep 2023 ==

Happened to me a few times at Chelmsford too.

I’ve been on a couple of wrong line trips Chelmsford to Church Lane that have involved overtaking in times of disruption.

 

[LAX54]

Change back at Claydon, or Ipswich??

No, L/E crossover at the end of the Goods Loop.

 

[dk1]

Change back at Claydon, or Ipswich??

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Sep 2023 ==


I’ve been on a couple of wrong line trips Chelmsford to Church Lane that have involved overtaking in times of disruption.

If going wrong road onto the down line at Stowmarket you cross back immediately ahead of the Down loop. The bidirectional signalling is only south of Colchester.

Yes bi-di is frequently used at short notice where it is available.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Sep 2023 ==

Diss is very similar but wrong direction is on the opposite track and available over the up.

 

[LAX54]

If going wrong road onto the down line at Stowmarket you cross back immediately ahead of the Down loop. The bidirectional signalling is only south of Colchester.

Yes bi-di is frequently used at short notice where it is available.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Sep 2023 ==

Diss is very similar but wrong direction is on the opposite track and available over the up.

Manningtree would be very useful....but alas never done

 

[dk1]

Manningtree would be very useful....but alas never done

Always surprised me that. Done it a few times over the down but alas it’s not a signalled move except for the position light at the London end. Wonder why it wasn’t incorporated back in the 80s? Reminds of the day the duty traincrew manager agreed to the Thunderbird leaving Norwich later than the booked 04:45 to sit at Colchester. The 05:30 decided to sit down at Manningtree with delays racking up and Anglia getting a £38k bill. Costly mistake that lol.

 

[brad465]

In 2014, in the storm our train ( a 150) tried to go towards the tunnel after Dawlish as the waves were hitting us. Couldnt proceed as we could all hear the ballast being washed away in front of and under the train. After a wait for signal box Ok, driver changed ends and we reversed back up the down line to a crossover (might of even been Dawlish Warren) driver swoops again and we proceed down the up line and see if we can go through on that one. No go, we then ran back and terminated. In the night the washout occurred and I was on the bus for the next three months. So I' m sure the bi running is very useful in a variety of different situations.

I wondered if the primary reason for that bi-directional option was for rough weather, as the line with wrong-sided operation possible is further from the sea. However there isn't much difference in it width-wise, and that doesn't account for a risk of cliff collapse on the line (although reinforcement works for that have happened too).

 

[Purple Train]

On a similar note, does the West Highland still use right-hand running at passing loops, or has that been changed with RETB? I'm fairly sure it used to be the case at Rannoch, for instance.

 

[30907]

I wondered if the primary reason for that bi-directional option was for rough weather, as the line with wrong-sided operation possible is further from the sea.

Yes, it was. 4m or so does make a difference!

However there isn't much difference in it width-wise, and that doesn't account for a risk of cliff collapse on the line (although reinforcement works for that have happened too).

Cliff falls are less predictable than high tides and SE winds, though

 

[zwk500]

On a similar note, does the West Highland still use right-hand running at passing loops, or has that been changed with RETB? I'm fairly sure it used to be the case at Rannoch, for instance.

AFAIK yes, although I believe it was RETB that drove that change as it made shunting easier at some locations with the self-acting (hydraulic?, often incorrectly referred to as 'sprung') points for access to sidings.

 

[Purple Train]

AFAIK yes, although I believe it was RETB that drove that change as it made shunting easier at some locations with the self-acting (hydraulic?, often incorrectly referred to as 'sprung') points for access to sidings.

Sorry, I was misremembering how (relatively) far back RETB was introduced. I think I was mixing it up with the time of introduction of ERTMS on the Cambrian Wasn't it an 80s thing?

 

[zwk500]

Sorry, I was misremembering how (relatively) far back RETB was introduced. I think I was mixing it up with the time of introduction of ERTMS on the Cambrian Wasn't it an 80s thing?

Radio Electronic Token Block

It was indeed. Cambrian ETCS was 2008, the East Suffolk lines went to TCB a couple of years ago. RETB is sometimes mentioned in various proposals for getting rid of manual signal boxes or token block working on lines that don't justify full TCB, but so far I don't think any of them got anywhere.

 

[Purple Train]

Radio Electronic Token Block

It was indeed. Cambrian ETCS was 2008, the East Suffolk lines went to TCB a couple of years ago. RETB is sometimes mentioned in various proposals for getting rid of manual signal boxes or token block working on lines that don't justify full TCB, but so far I don't think any of them got anywhere.

Thanks for the link, I haven't come across that site before - very interesting!

 

[zwk500]

Thanks for the link, I haven't come across that site before - very interesting!

The whole site is fantastic, and I think the owner is on here (@Railsigns ?), to whom all credit goes.

 

[Railsigns]

Radio Electronic Token Block

It was indeed. Cambrian ETCS was 2008,

Cambrian ETCS Stage 1 was 2010; Stage 2 was 2011.

The whole site is fantastic, and I think the owner is on here (@Railsigns ?), to whom all credit goes.

Hello! And thanks.

 

[LAX54]

Always surprised me that. Done it a few times over the down but alas it’s not a signalled move except for the position light at the London end. Wonder why it wasn’t incorporated back in the 80s? Reminds of the day the duty traincrew manager agreed to the Thunderbird leaving Norwich later than the booked 04:45 to sit at Colchester. The 05:30 decided to sit down at Manningtree with delays racking up and Anglia getting a £38k bill. Costly mistake that lol.

Yes, unsignalled move from Up Main to Down Main, then back to Up Main, although covered by the GPL's from the CCTV onwards!
In theory SLW needed to get around a failure etc, but if I was on duty, and Driver happy, would allow one train to get past the problem.
always told Control, if you dont ask any questions on 'how' ... I wont tell you a lie ! but everyone was always happy that the train behind didnt meet with an hour+ of delay !

 

[dk1]

Yes, unsignalled move from Up Main to Down Main, then back to Up Main, although covered by the GPL's from the CCTV onwards!
In theory SLW needed to get around a failure etc, but if I was on duty, and Driver happy, would allow one train to get past the problem.
always told Control, if you dont ask any questions on 'how' ... I wont tell you a lie ! but everyone was always happy that the train behind didnt meet with an hour+ of delay !

You know me mate, always happy work through such issues & was a pleasure when you were on duty.

 

[LAX54]

You know me mate, always happy work through such issues & was a pleasure when you were on duty.

Thankyou for that, appreciated The PSB is a different place now I fear.

 

[gazr]

As far as Manningtree goes, there was SLW through P3 last Sunday (24th September) all day whilst P1 was being relayed. Believe it caused some delays to start with.

 

[Annetts key]

Best use of bidirectional signalling I ever saw, was during a cable fault. The fault caused a loss of the normal directional signalling on both the up line and the down line on part of the GWML.

Hence it was gently suggested that the reversible signalling be used (as this was operational). Hence for a large part of the day up trains used the down line and down trains used the up line…

I’ve also seen both lines of a bidirectional signalled route used to ease congestion when extra (diverted) traffic is using the route due to another line being closed.

Some years ago, one particular signaller liked to use the maximum capacity of routes and junctions, and in the process occasionally discovered faults that were either design issues or which were normal failures that no one else had reported. Made life rather interesting.

 

[dk1]

As far as Manningtree goes, there was SLW through P3 last Sunday (24th September) all day whilst P1 was being relayed. Believe it caused some delays to start with.

Around 15-20 minutes to many trains.

 

[D6975]

On a similar note, does the West Highland still use right-hand running at passing loops, or has that been changed with RETB? I'm fairly sure it used to be the case at Rannoch, for instance.

It actually uses a mix of left and right hand running I think unless it's changed.
Crianlarich was LHS last time I was there, long after RETB came in.

 

[Purple Train]

It actually uses a mix of left and right hand running I think unless it's changed.
Crianlarich was LHS last time I was there, long after RETB came in.

Now you mention it, I think it's left-hand at Glenfinnan also.