UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[trebor79]

The Taycan also supports the latest in rapid charging tech - owners can expect to turn up and charge in some places.

What does this mean exactly? Taycan can indeed charge very rapidly but "turn up and charge" is exactly what every EV driver does.

 

[greyman42]

Isn't there still a long waiting list for the Taycan, and hasn't Porsche suffered in that a lot of people (even supposed 'petrolheads') have been opting to ditch their petrol cars in favour of one?

I would not have thought that you could order any new Porsche and not have to wait, be it EV or ICE.

 

[Energy]

It’s probably Porsche being Porsche, but yes I agree.

Porsche being Porsche, remember this is the company that has the rear windscreen wiper as an option.

I suspect a lot of this is to do with the supply and demand issues in the industry over the last few years. Previously a lot of EVs were holding their value very well because you’d have to wait months or years to get a new one. Now there is oversupply for new EVs the second hand market is crashing. The volatility means dealers don’t offer good deals to sellers etc etc. But no doubt in the next few months or year or so it will recover to where is should be once the new market stabilises.

Depends on the model.

The e208 looks on the surface to have depreciated insanely (£31-33k new, £15-18k 3 years used) but carwow is listing some dealers selling then new for as little as £23k, so not that bad.

It'll also be affected (as will others) by the MG4, its difficult to sell a used e208 or Corsa electric for more than a brand new MG4. They could cling on to higher prices when the waiting list for a brand new car was very, very long but not now.

The Taycan has depreciated a lot because its a fast sports car so tend to loose value quicker.

 

[greyman42]

The Taycan has depreciated a lot because its a Porsche, never known to hold their value...

I thought Porsche held their value very well but am happy to be corrected.

 

[Energy]

I thought Porsche held their value very well but am happy to be corrected.

I've corrected my post to be more accurate, sports cars tend to loose value more quickly, some Porsches (desirable models of 911s) do hold their value very well though its not uncommon to find cheap Porsches of less desirable models.

 

[Noddy]

Hannah Richie has produced a nice interactive chart of how EV ranges have risen since 2011. It’s well worth a look. The data is based on US EPA cycles which generally give a closer real word figure compared to European WLTP ranges.

Electric vehicles: longer range and more cars on the market

A Flourish data visualization by Hannah

public.flourish.studio

 

[The Ham]

Hannah Richie has produced a nice interactive chart of how EV ranges have risen since 2011. It’s well worth a look. The data is based on US EPA cycles which generally give a closer real word figure compared to European WLTP ranges.

Electric vehicles: longer range and more cars on the market

A Flourish data visualization by Hannah

public.flourish.studio

The main thing that illustrates (and would do even if the range was WLTP) is that the range had gone up a lot, as well as being fat more cars on the market.

Other things it shows up is that the lowest range vehicle is now acute the same as the highest 11 years previously.

Whilst I suspect that the improvements may slow down, there's likely to be some more improvements before it stops.

 

[DustyBin]

The main thing that illustrates (and would do even if the range was WLTP) is that the range had gone up a lot, as well as being fat more cars on the market.

Other things it shows up is that the lowest range vehicle is now acute the same as the highest 11 years previously.

Whilst I suspect that the improvements may slow down, there's likely to be some more improvements before it stops.

As I’ve said previously (just a few times!), I don’t believe range is the issue for most people, it’s the lack of charging infrastructure (perceived or otherwise).

In favourable conditions I can get 270 miles on a full tank of petrol; plenty of EVs will surpass that. The difference is that it takes less than 5 minutes to refill with petrol, and rarely involves any kind of detour, despite only using certain fuels.

 

[trebor79]

As I’ve said previously (just a few times!), I don’t believe range is the issue for most people, it’s the lack of charging infrastructure (perceived or otherwise).

In favourable conditions I can get 270 miles on a full tank of petrol; plenty of EVs will surpass that. The difference is that it takes less than 5 minutes to refill with petrol, and rarely involves any kind of detour, despite only using certain fuels.

Ah, but effectively I leave home with a "full tank" every day. I've done over about 1,500 miles this month and only needed to charge away from home once, including plenty of 200 mile days. That 1,500 miles has cost me just £35 in electricity, £15 of which was the single charge away from home.
If the car has a decent range it doesn't need charging until the driver is ready for a break anyway, and by then time you've had a tea etc the car is ready to go again.

 

[PeterC]

Ah, but effectively I leave home with a "full tank" every day. I've done over about 1,500 miles this month and only needed to charge away from home once, including plenty of 200 mile days. That 1,500 miles has cost me just £35 in electricity, £15 of which was the single charge away from home.
If the car has a decent range it doesn't need charging until the driver is ready for a break anyway, and by then time you've had a tea etc the car is ready to go again.

The old "I've got a private drive so it's not a issue for the peasants in flats or terraced houses" argument

 

[DC1989]

2030 was of course always dependent on infrastructure being rolled out in a timely manner. Of course one of the many, many things this government have been terrible at for the last 13 years is infrastructure, so it's no wonder that lack of infrastructure is the main problem.

 

[Bantamzen]

As I’ve said previously (just a few times!), I don’t believe range is the issue for most people, it’s the lack of charging infrastructure (perceived or otherwise).

And not just that, its the cost of buying one too. When the second hand market starts to become saturated with EVs then I'm sure take up will increase, but ultimately the cost of new builds will dictate how quickly take-up will be. But infrastructure is rightly an important aspect as to why many people are holding off, especially people whose homes won't be easy to have charging points installed.

 

[DustyBin]

Ah, but effectively I leave home with a "full tank" every day. I've done over about 1,500 miles this month and only needed to charge away from home once, including plenty of 200 mile days. That 1,500 miles has cost me just £35 in electricity, £15 of which was the single charge away from home.
If the car has a decent range it doesn't need charging until the driver is ready for a break anyway, and by then time you've had a tea etc the car is ready to go again.

That's all fair enough, and I think in a lot cases the anxiety transcends the reality. That said, the charging infrastructure in the far north of England still isn't great according to my EV-driving colleagues and associates.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Sep 2023 ==

And not just that, its the cost of buying one too. When the second hand market starts to become saturated with EVs then I'm sure take up will increase, but ultimately the cost of new builds will dictate how quickly take-up will be. But infrastructure is rightly an important aspect as to why many people are holding off, especially people whose homes won't be easy to have charging points installed.

True. Plenty of people have a budget of a few thousand pounds (maximum) to buy a car. I suspect many of them will be the same people who don't have off-street parking, so all in all they're unlikely to move to an EV anytime soon.

 

[BananaRepublic]

......Of course one of the many, many things this government have been terrible at for the last 13 years is infrastructure, so it's no wonder that lack of infrastructure is the main problem.

The government are not involved in providing the infrastructure.
That is entirely private industry activity.

What government have failed to do, is take a more proactive part in facilitating the expansion of this sector, for example, by offering exceptional tax breaks and financial incentives to the charging companies, or by setting targets and incentives for local authorities and highway agencies to encourage and facilitate the growth of charging hubs etc.

Similarly, where is the political drive to see upgrades and improvements in local power distribution networks, many of which will otherwise prove to be a bottleneck in the coming years ?


.

 

[WelshBluebird]

The old "I've got a private drive so it's not a issue for the peasants in flats or terraced houses" argument

The old "I'm going to assert everyone has to be able to charge at home" argument.
The reality is that you don't specifically have to be able to charge at home for EV to still work for you.
Sure some people might have to. But most people don't actually drive that many miles in a week, so charging once or twice a week at work, or the supermarket, or at other public charges will be enough for a decent amount of drivers.

 

[birchesgreen]

The old "I'm going to assert everyone has to be able to charge at home" argument.
The reality is that you don't specifically have to be able to charge at home for EV to still work for you.
Sure some people might have to. But most people don't actually drive that many miles in a week, so charging once or twice a week at work, or the supermarket, or at other public charges will be enough for a decent amount of drivers.

Yes this is what my sister in law does in East London, charges when needed at the local Lidl.

 

[trebor79]

The government are not involved in providing the infrastructure.
That is entirely private industry activity.

What government have failed to do, is take a more proactive part in facilitating the expansion of this sector, for example, by offering exceptional tax breaks and financial incentives to the charging companies, or by setting targets and incentives for local authorities and highway agencies to encourage and facilitate the growth of charging hubs etc.

Similarly, where is the political drive to see upgrades and improvements in local power distribution networks, many of which will otherwise prove to be a bottleneck in the coming years ?


.

Actually it's probably a good thing that UK government hasn't been so involved in providing infrastructure. Scottish government did through Chargeplace Scotland. Great. Except for a long time they were completely free to use, courtesy of the Scottish taxpayer, so no private networks built out in Scotland. Now Scotland has a network of unreliable, slow by todays standards chargers, generally underprovisioned, and private operators just starting to take up the slack.

I agree government should have been doing more to facilitate. I don't think tax breaks or targets would help - the big issue is grid connection and the amount of time and planning nonsense that takes. All that red tape needs sweeping away or massively simplifying and the DNO's told to get new sites connected ASAP.

 

[The Ham]

As I’ve said previously (just a few times!), I don’t believe range is the issue for most people, it’s the lack of charging infrastructure (perceived or otherwise).

In favourable conditions I can get 270 miles on a full tank of petrol; plenty of EVs will surpass that. The difference is that it takes less than 5 minutes to refill with petrol, and rarely involves any kind of detour, despite only using certain fuels.

Whilst I generally agree with you, the first year of that graph had no cars able to do 150 miles. From that baseline there was a need for cats to have longer range, currently I don't think that there's a need for much growth at the top end, although a few more moving from 150-200 to 200-250 would probably be fairly desirable.

The old "I've got a private drive so it's not a issue for the peasants in flats or terraced houses" argument

There's quite a few people for whom charging whilst at home could be charging from kerb side charges (i.e. built into lamp columns) or even public chargers.

Obviously now needs to be done for some areas than is currently the case, however if no one is asking then where is the incentive for councils to provide them?

 

[Bantamzen]

There's quite a few people for whom charging whilst at home could be charging from kerb side charges (i.e. built into lamp columns) or even public chargers.

Obviously now needs to be done for some areas than is currently the case, however if no one is asking then where is the incentive for councils to provide them?

But who is paying for these kerbside or lamp post charge points being installed? I mean you are going to need hundreds of thousands at least, and inside of a decade. And that's before you consider that councils around the country ate struggling to even fill in pot holes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But who is paying for these kerbside or lamp post charge points being installed? I mean you are going to need hundreds of thousands at least, and inside of a decade. And that's before you consider that councils around the country ate struggling to even fill in pot holes.

There does, in time, need to be something done about terraced housing without allocated parking and EVs. It's not yet totally clear what "something" should be, though, as all the options have some sort of significant downside, e.g. parking wars over parking outside your own house so a cable can be run in a slot, or fights over spaces near the lamp-posts, or whatever.

However, it's not massively important to worry about it at the moment, with those houses typically being at the lower end of the market and EVs being still quite expensive, so most people who can afford an EV (used Leafs aside) don't live in that sort of house, certainly outside London. Concentrate on getting charging kit into all houses with driveways, which is a fairly large proportion of them, and in encouraging freeholders of blocks of flats with allocated parking to fit slow-chargers in each space. For the time being, people in terraced streets should probably continue to buy petrol cars if they can't make do with public charging, and that's fine. Perfection is, as I'm forever pointing out, the enemy of the good.

It's also not necessarily the case that the same solution will work everywhere. For instance in areas with very low land value, purchasing some houses to demolish and create parking and charging areas may work (it would after all be a lot better if narrow terraced streets weren't littered with cars and could have wider pavements for easier access with buggies and wheelchairs, and adding some street trees and similar would make the streets look much more liveable). Whereas in areas of higher land value other options may be preferable.

 

[Bantamzen]

There does need to be something done about terraced housing without allocated parking and EVs.

However, it's not massively important to worry about it at the moment, with those houses typically being at the lower end of the market and EVs being still quite expensive. Concentrate on getting charging kit into all houses with driveways, which is a fairly large proportion of them, and in encouraging freeholders of blocks of flats with allocated parking to fit slow-chargers in each space. For the time being, people in terraced streets should probably continue to buy petrol cars if they can't make do with public charging, and that's fine. Perfection is, as I'm forever pointing out, the enemy of the good.

And honestly that's a sensible position to take. However given the scale of the problem, the cost and logistics of making it possible to charge in many more residential areas, targets for full EV use may need to be reassessed.

 

[greyman42]

There does, in time, need to be something done about terraced housing without allocated parking and EVs. It's not yet totally clear what "something" should be, though, as all the options have some sort of significant downside, e.g. parking wars over parking outside your own house so a cable can be run in a slot, or fights over spaces near the lamp-posts, or whatever.

However, it's not massively important to worry about it at the moment, with those houses typically being at the lower end of the market and EVs being still quite expensive, so most people who can afford an EV (used Leafs aside) don't live in that sort of house, certainly outside London. Concentrate on getting charging kit into all houses with driveways, which is a fairly large proportion of them, and in encouraging freeholders of blocks of flats with allocated parking to fit slow-chargers in each space. For the time being, people in terraced streets should probably continue to buy petrol cars if they can't make do with public charging, and that's fine. Perfection is, as I'm forever pointing out, the enemy of the good.

It's also not necessarily the case that the same solution will work everywhere. For instance in areas with very low land value, purchasing some houses to demolish and create parking and charging areas may work (it would after all be a lot better if narrow terraced streets weren't littered with cars and could have wider pavements for easier access with buggies and wheelchairs, and adding some street trees and similar would make the streets look much more liveable). Whereas in areas of higher land value other options may be preferable.

I think it is easier just to stick with ICE.

 

[Noddy]

But who is paying for these kerbside or lamp post charge points being installed? I mean you are going to need hundreds of thousands at least, and inside of a decade. And that's before you consider that councils around the country ate struggling to even fill in pot holes.

As I understand current the UK government have a financing scheme (ORCS-On street residential charge point scheme) which pays up to 60% of the cost to local authorities, and the rest comes from elsewhere. For the Shell Ubitricity ones Shell pays the remaining 40%. Their website provides more info here:

ORCS Funding

Get to know the On-street Residential Charge Point Scheme (ORCS) and benefit from grants and ubitricity's match-funding offer!

ubitricity.com

 

[Bletchleyite]

And honestly that's a sensible position to take. However given the scale of the problem, the cost and logistics of making it possible to charge in many more residential areas, targets for full EV use may need to be reassessed.

Are there any serious targets for full EV use? There is a target (2035) for full EV brand new sales, but it does nothing to require when existing ICE cars are retired. Normally cars become uneconomic to repair around 10-15 years old, but if you really want to keep an ICE going it will be worth doing so for much longer even if it costs.

We could say 2055 as a target for full EV use (giving a generous 20 years of economic petrol ICE car life), but that's so far off that it's impossible to know what tech will exist by then. It may be that a new battery chemistry is possible that can charge near-instantly and give an EV a 500 mile range on a charge, at which point we'd just go back to having things that look remarkably like petrol stations but with big cables with plugs on the end, and everything else would become irrelevant. Sort of a bit like it's not unlikely that within that sort of timescale stuff like plug sockets on trains and Wifi will become irrelevant, just like Rabbit phones (and for many, landlines) did a while back.

 

[trebor79]

There does, in time, need to be something done about terraced housing without allocated parking and EVs. It's not yet totally clear what "something" should be, though, as all the options have some sort of significant downside, e.g. parking wars over parking outside your own house so a cable can be run in a slot, or fights over spaces near the lamp-posts, or whatever.

I can see a concierge service being a thing. You go to bed, during the night someone picks up your car, takes it to a nearby charger and brings it back when done.
Would be easy to do with more and more cars now having phone unlock and "valet mode" etc and allows just a few 50kW-ish chargers to be installed rather than hundreds of 7kW lamppost chargers, so better utilisation of the infrastructure.

I think it is easier just to stick with ICE.

Fantastic idea. Let's just keep polluting because we can't be bothered!
Honestly I get more and more disgusted every day with poorly maintained ICE vehicles belching out clouds of smoke. No way they pass an MOT like that.

 

[Bantamzen]

As I understand current the UK government have a financing scheme (ORCS-On street residential charge point scheme) which pays about 60% of the cost to local authorities, and the rest comes from elsewhere. For the Shell Ubitricity ones Shell pays the 40%. Their website provides more info here:

ORCS Funding

Get to know the On-street Residential Charge Point Scheme (ORCS) and benefit from grants and ubitricity's match-funding offer!

ubitricity.com

And there's the problem, up to 60% not necessarily the whole amount, and that is assuming the other 40% comes from this scheme.

Are there any serious targets for full EV use? There is a target (2035) for full EV brand new sales, but it does nothing to require when existing ICE cars are retired. Normally cars become uneconomic to repair around 10-15 years old, but if you really want to keep an ICE going it will be worth doing so for much longer even if it costs.

Well yes, net zero targets surely dictate that carbon based fuel needs to be gone by the currently set dates?

 

[greyman42]

I can see a concierge service being a thing. You go to bed, during the night someone picks up your car, takes it to a nearby charger and brings it back when done.
Would be easy to do with more and more cars now having phone unlock and "valet mode" etc and allows just a few 50kW-ish chargers to be installed rather than hundreds of 7kW lamppost chargers, so better utilisation of the infrastructure.

Sounds like a fantasy to me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well yes, net zero targets surely dictate that carbon based fuel needs to be gone by the currently set dates?

Net zero isn't absolute zero (because some things are carbon negative, like growing trees). So no, carbon based fuel doesn't need to be gone. There just needs to be a significant reduction in its use.

 

[Bantamzen]

Net zero isn't absolute zero (because some things are carbon negative, like growing trees). So no, carbon based fuel doesn't need to be gone. There just needs to be a significant reduction in its use.

Now tell politicians that..

 

[Noddy]

And there's the problem, up to 60% not necessarily the whole amount, and that is assuming the other 40% comes from this scheme.

Eh? Shell Ubitricity have payed the 40% for the thousands they've already installed and plan to do tens of thousands more in the next few years.

There are other companies such as Char.gy offering to do it completely for free but I wonder if they are getting the 60% grant money directly so the local authority does not have to do this themselves.

char.gy — Public electric vehicle charging - on-street, car parks, lampposts

T

char.gy