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What is the actual guarantee? That it won't be dead at 100,000 miles, or that the battery at that stage will still retain a stated percentage of its charge?
Unless the guarantee says that it will still retain, say, at least 75% of its original charge expressed in range in miles, how useful is that guarantee?
Just one example (as it’s the one I’ll be making use of)…
Audi warrant their batteries for 100,000 miles / 8 years at no lower than 70% capacity* AIUI this warranty transfers to the new owner of you sell the car.
* Given that the A6 Avant with 100kWh will have 440miles+ range, that’s seems like a good arrangement to me
What is the actual guarantee? That it won't be dead at 100,000 miles, or that the battery at that stage will still retain a stated percentage of its charge?
Unless the guarantee says that it will still retain, say, at least 75% of its original charge expressed in range in miles, how useful is that guarantee?
During a capacity check at an Authorised MG Repairer if it is determined that the lithium-ion high voltage battery has suffered a capacity drop below 70% of the original value at delivery of your new MG Electric/Hybrid Vehicle, the segment below 70% will be deemed excessive loss. Where possible the excessive loss portion will be repaired, if un-repairable the lithium-ion high voltage battery will be replaced with either a new or a remanufactured battery.
If you are looking to buy an electric car, I would check the smalll print for the specific warranty that you will get. The terms and conditions might change with time, and for different models. They might be from the manufacturer, the importer or a dealer.
To be honest they’re pretty mainstream these days and compete with the likes of BMW and Audi. They’re “premium”, but not beyond the means of a lot of ordinary people.
It’s true though that they’re not the best example of an affordable EV!
That's because Tata are rebranding and re-positioning Jaguar in the car marketplace.
Jaguars attempt to compete in the executive sector, against the likes of Mercedes, BMW, Audi and Lexus, have not been very successful, in terms of volume.
Sales of the company's XE and XF saloon cars had slumped, even before Covid devastated the market.
They were just not selling against the competition, or the popularity of crossovers and SUV's.
Their E & F-Pace SUV's have faired better, particularly the latter, but the company has been haemorrhaging money for a number of years.
Other than attempting to hive the brand off from JLR and sell it, Tata only had two options.
Close Jaguar down, or try to rebrand and reposition in the marketplace.
They've gone for the latter and intend to move out of the mass market sector, into the luxury EV arena.
Lower volume and high prices and they hope, higher margins.
It's not quite that simple, unfortunately. If there's one faulty cell that can then cause other cells to operate out of specification and also fail, or imbalance the whole pack because it's usually built up of modules of cells connected in parallel internally and then in series to each other.
It's also not as simple as "just replace one or two cells" because then you have new undegraded cells operating alongside used degraded cells and that also causes issues (for similar reasons to you are always told not to mix old and new batteries or different brands of batteries in kids toys).
Fortunately it is very rare for cells to fail and in any case the battery warranty means you don't need to worry about it.
What is the actual guarantee? That it won't be dead at 100,000 miles, or that the battery at that stage will still retain a stated percentage of its charge?
Unless the guarantee says that it will still retain, say, at least 75% of its original charge expressed in range in miles, how useful is that guarantee?
Most of the time when it comes to electronic/electrical items, if it's going to fail due to a defect then it will likely fail early on - a lot different to mechanical items like a washing machine or engine.
I doubt the cells are going to work perfectly for 8 years/100,000 miles and then suddenly fail one day. If there was a fault in the BMS or the connections between cells, you'd expect that to show from regular checks carried out within the warranty period. Of course, you'd need to make sure it IS checked when the car is serviced.
If the vehicle was involved in an accident, that might impact the battery but the insurance company would be covering the cost of a new or refurbished battery anyway. Perhaps a consideration for third-party insurance, if anyone still gets this for their car?
I suspect that given the battery isn't likely to fail and will just degrade over time, you'll find companies gladly offering extended warranties on batteries for peace of mind - with a low risk to them, and additional reassurance for anyone fearful of a hefty bill based on the common view that somehow they'll all die on their tenth anniversary!
On this point I think its worth mentioning that they have performed better than Nissan initially believed. Our old 16 plate 30Kwh Leaf had a battery health around 83% at 125 thousand miles.
Yes, there are many people on YouTube showing that their second hand Leaf from 7-10 years ago is still performing well. Don't forget that after a while, people were told how to best manage the batteries and reduce the risk of harm.
And a car that can be bought for as little as £3995 and do 80-odd miles a day (and the user needs to do only 20-30) is fine. If you ignore the 'but what about that 6am trip to the Highlands of Scotland to meet a sick grandparent' examples, that car will be fine for commutes, school runs, trips to football practice etc.
Yes, there are many people on YouTube showing that their second hand Leaf from 7-10 years ago is still performing well. Don't forget that after a while, people were told how to best manage the batteries and reduce the risk of harm.
And a car that can be bought for as little as £3995 and do 80-odd miles a day (and the user needs to do only 20-30) is fine. If you ignore the 'but what about that 6am trip to the Highlands of Scotland to meet a sick grandparent' examples, that car will be fine for commutes, school runs, trips to football practice etc.
I agree, and I bet there are plenty of people with a bigger car that get one (or want a newer small EV) for the short runs, or where you need a second car for a few occasions but not enough to warrant two big cars - although the Leaf isn't small.
I'd suit an old Leaf perfectly, but really don't like the look of them and will wait for something newer to come along (or a current car to drop in price on the second hand car market). I would be able to charge at home 99.99% of the time and for any exception, yes I'd have a long wait at a charger but it would be a minor inconvenience for the money saved in the long run.
People in towns almost certainly could have one as their main car.
Ideally long journeys can be undertaken using borrowed or rental cars, except by those who make more than one a year. I borrowed a van to do the mythical "pick up a bed" that so many drivers are certain happens to them weekly - I mused to my partner that the only things as big that I'd ever driven were trains!
It can do a longer journey though, but you'll need to charge somewhere other than your home. If that's a couple of times a year, I'd take the time hit.
It can do a longer journey though, but you'll need to charge somewhere other than your home. If that's a couple of times a year, I'd take the time hit.
MK to the Lake District is about 200 miles. That's four or five charges. Really not practical.
Saying that it is sits alongside public transport enthusiasts saying a complex train and bus journey is viable for the average person.
As I said, fine as a second-car urban runaround (the sort of things some enthusiasts are using e-cargo bikes for), but not as the primary family car. A used petrol car like a Corsa or Astra would cost the same and be much more suitable for a sole car.
Ideally long journeys can be undertaken using borrowed or rental cars, except by those who make more than one a year. I borrowed a van to do the mythical "pick up a bed" that so many drivers are certain happens to them weekly - I mused to my partner that the only things as big that I'd ever driven were trains!
My petrol car isn't big enough for a bed or large furniture, so even if I can drive 450 miles per tank (on a motorway only, as short drives usually means nearer 250-300 miles per tank), I will still need a bigger vehicle for special use-cases that are very rare.
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MK to the Lake District is about 200 miles. That's four or five charges. Really not practical.
Saying that it is sits alongside public transport enthusiasts saying a complex train and bus journey is viable for the average person.
As I said, fine as a second-car urban runaround (the sort of things some enthusiasts are using e-cargo bikes for), but not as the primary family car. A used petrol car like a Corsa or Astra would cost the same and be much more suitable for a sole car.
If a Leaf could do 80 miles, then it isn't four or five charges. But, yes, the Leaf is slow to charge and you would need to take that into account IF you actually wanted to go from MK to the Lake District.
London to Edinburgh is 400+ miles. I can probably do it in one go in my car but I won't, I'll stop a fair few times as I'm not driving 7-8 hours non-stop.
I wouldn't be driving there in a Leaf, but I could easily do it in an EV that does 200-300 miles with just one stop, or more likely a few stops to coincide with toilet/coffee breaks - given a car will charge slower once it's approaching 80% so you may as well do small top-ups to 50 or 60% max. Do the 100% charge with destination charging.
If someone living in a town buys a car for all the examples I gave, they'd likely not plan to use a car for such a long trip. If they do regular trips to see family or go on holidays, they'd not buy a Leaf.
If you do lots of driving, an EV is going to pay for itself quicker than the person wanting to do low mileage - hence the whole issue that you can't get a cheap EV when people are crying out of them. Almost all the comments on car reviews are from people wanting a smaller, cheaper, EV and not needing huge ranges. A small battery but with fast charging is ideal. Less weight to carry around all the time too. Lower weight equals more miles per kWh. Win win.
Chances are a lot of people in a town don't have a car at all. They'd hire one or take a train and use a taxi to get from the station to their cottage/hotel. I've been to the Lake District without a car (only once, admittedly) and you can get around okay. Indeed, given the sky-high parking charges and the need to plan walks that get you back to the car park, not having a car can actually be a benefit.
My petrol car isn't big enough for a bed or large furniture, so even if I can drive 450 miles per tank (on a motorway only, as short drives usually means nearer 250-300 miles per tank), I will still need a bigger vehicle for special use-cases that are very rare.
Furniture is different from longer car trips in that most of it is either sold as flat-pack or delivered. I suppose if you often buy it used, but most people don't these days.
Part of the ownership of a car for most families is to be able to make long distance trips in it, particularly as a family where rail can be very expensive and awkward.
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I wouldn't be driving there in a Leaf, but I could easily do it in an EV that does 200-300 miles with just one stop, or more likely a few stops to coincide with toilet/coffee breaks - given a car will charge slower once it's approaching 80% so you may as well do small top-ups to 50 or 60% max. Do the 100% charge with destination charging.
I'd agree 200-300 miles actual (which probably means 300-400 claimed) is a sweet spot for EV range.
However, we were talking about used Nissan Leafs with an actual range of around 50 miles, which are simply not practical for a sole family car due to the inability to do long trips without repeated slow charging, and suggesting they are is really zealotry, along the lines of people who suggest, unless they live a very limited life, a cargo e-bike can viably replace a primary family car.
My petrol car isn't big enough for a bed or large furniture, so even if I can drive 450 miles per tank (on a motorway only, as short drives usually means nearer 250-300 miles per tank), I will still need a bigger vehicle for special use-cases that are very rare.
We don't even own electric ourselves - we share a petrol fiesta, that we will affectionately run into the ground.
As a minor aside, it's easier than ever to get day insurance on even fleet vehicles. Depending on how you value your own time, fuel+insurance alone can be cheaper than a man with a van.
It depends on a number of factors (also depends on definition of main car - I assume the post ment car you use most of the time, but my reply assumes only car or best car):
a) how often you do a 50+ mile trip where you'd need to them charge the car
b) what options you've got for access to another car (for example car club or car hire or access to a family member's car) for those longer trips
For those who rarely go more than 50 miles and/or have reasonable access to another car to use of the fairly infrequent times they would need to do a longer trip.
Personally the car we use the most could probably just about be a Leaf (although not ideal), although for our 8 (ish) times we go and see family each year (circa 250 miles) it would be far from ideal (needing 4 charges).
However, if you did a 150 mile trip once a year (otherwise everything else was sub 70 miles) then stopping twice to charge probably wouldn't be too inconvenient.
I was out with one of my contractors yesterday who (unbeknown to me) has a Taycan.
We were talking about the pros and cons of it, and he mentioned a recent battery related scare he’d had after running over some debris on the road. A battery temperature warning appeared, but fortunately it had only damaged a plug/connector which cost a few hundred pounds to replace. Out of interest he asked how much a replacement battery would cost, and apparently they start at around £45k (plus VAT)!
That got me thinking; is battery damage covered by insurance and are there any special conditions etc. attached? Or is it not a specific concern? (I’d expect such an expensive component to be well protected against minor impact damage in the first place to be honest).
Anyway, he’s not particularly happy with the Taycan, not least as it’s depreciated massively which I found surprising (a quick online search supports this however). They have a good battery warranty as you’d expect, so presumably they suffer with other issues that are affecting second hand values.
Obviously a Taycan isn’t a typical EV, but I thought I’d share as it’s an interesting anecdote.
I know that parts can be an absolute rip off, but £45k+VAT for a battery is insane. No way it costs anywhere remotely near that, even with the labour costs involved in swapping one out.
I was out with one of my contractors yesterday who (unbeknown to me) has a Taycan.
We were talking about the pros and cons of it, and he mentioned a recent battery related scare he’d had after running over some debris on the road. A battery temperature warning appeared, but fortunately it had only damaged a plug/connector which cost a few hundred pounds to replace. Out of interest he asked how much a replacement battery would cost, and apparently they start at around £45k (plus VAT)!
That got me thinking; is battery damage covered by insurance and are there any special conditions etc. attached? Or is it not a specific concern? (I’d expect such an expensive component to be well protected against minor impact damage in the first place to be honest).
Anyway, he’s not particularly happy with the Taycan, not least as it’s depreciated massively which I found surprising (a quick online search supports this however). They have a good battery warranty as you’d expect, so presumably they suffer with other issues that are affecting second hand values.
Obviously a Taycan isn’t a typical EV, but I thought I’d share as it’s an interesting anecdote.
I suspect a lot of this is to do with the supply and demand issues in the industry over the last few years. Previously a lot of EVs were holding their value very well because you’d have to wait months or years to get a new one. Now there is oversupply for new EVs the second hand market is crashing. The volatility means dealers don’t offer good deals to sellers etc etc. But no doubt in the next few months or year or so it will recover to where is should be once the new market stabilises.
Isn't there still a long waiting list for the Taycan, and hasn't Porsche suffered in that a lot of people (even supposed 'petrolheads') have been opting to ditch their petrol cars in favour of one?
Isn't there still a long waiting list for the Taycan, and hasn't Porsche suffered in that a lot of people (even supposed 'petrolheads') have been opting to ditch their petrol cars in favour of one?
I am under the impression that it’s down to a few months for a fairly standard one from 18 months a couple of years ago (longer in both cases for high spec ones)? But yes the Taycan looks like a pretty awesome car that can recharge super quick and is popular with car enthusiasts.
A relative of mine recently had a 16-plate Leaf written off by the insurer following rear-end damage involving a stone wall (foot on wrong pedal when reversing I think). I don't know whether the damage affected the battery, but I was quite surprised that they'd chosen to write off a fairly low mileage car. (Of course it may subsequently be repaired).
They replaced it with an 18-plate Leaf which seems a rather nicer car, though it wouldn't be my choice. (It's a second car for residents of a rural area with no public transport within several miles of them).
I know that parts can be an absolute rip off, but £45k+VAT for a battery is insane. No way it costs anywhere remotely near that, even with the labour costs involved in swapping one out.
I suspect a lot of this is to do with the supply and demand issues in the industry over the last few years. Previously a lot of EVs were holding their value very well because you’d have to wait months or years to get a new one. Now there is oversupply for new EVs the second hand market is crashing. The volatility means dealers don’t offer good deals to sellers etc etc. But no doubt in the next few months or year or so it will recover to where is should be once the new market stabilises.
I am under the impression that it’s down to a few months for a fairly standard one from 18 months a couple of years ago (longer in both cases for high spec ones)? But yes the Taycan looks like a pretty awesome car that can recharge super quick and is popular with car enthusiasts.
To clarify, as I realise I worded it poorly, I meant many customers are not wanting the petrol cars from Porsche. In other words, the car is actually leaving the company with stock they can't so easily sell - and showing that people into performance cars aren't put off by electric.
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