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UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

trebor79

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The cheap and tacky interiors and absolutely terrible switchgear and computer screen interfaces they have installed in their electrical car range, has been extended to newer ICE models, such as the mk8 Golf.
VW have been panned for this across virtually all the motoring media.
Customers are voting with their feet and resisting paying premium prices for EV’s that give the appearance and feeling of being bargain basement models.

Note:
The best selling car in German and Europe ( that’s both ICE and EV) is the Tesla Model Y.
Tesla Model Y and Model 3 definitely have cheap interiors (I drive a 3). The big benefit of Tesla is the integrated, abundant and relatively cheap Supercharger network.

I actually quite liked the interior of the iD3 I test drove, other than the light controls being weirdly and awkwardly placed.
 
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RailUK Forums

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Tesla Model Y and Model 3 definitely have cheap interiors (I drive a 3). The big benefit of Tesla is the integrated, abundant and relatively cheap Supercharger network……

To be fair to them, the fit and finish has gradually been improved and the Shanghai built cars, which is what we’ve been getting here in the UK for nearly the last 2 years, are far better built than the earlier (chrome trim) Model 3’s that were imported from California.
The facelifted new Model 3 appears to be getting good reviews with particular praise for the improved interior quality, even if it’s not up to Merc or BMW levels.

The German built Model Y is again, said to be an improvement on the Chinese built RHD version we receive in Britain.
That model gets a worldwide facelift and update from next year too.

.
 

Bletchleyite

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VW seem to be making some bizarre decisions, such as getting rid of established names of cars that people buy and would buy the EV version of. The ID.7 is basically an e-Passat. It is chucking away sales not to call it that. Particularly in the area of that sort of vehicle (large saloons and estates) the market is very conservative with a lot of people who've always had Passats, but when they see that there isn't one any more they're as likely to look elsewhere as in VW's own range.
 

RailWonderer

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VW seem to be making some bizarre decisions, such as getting rid of established names of cars that people buy and would buy the EV version of. The ID.7 is basically an e-Passat. It is chucking away sales not to call it that. Particularly in the area of that sort of vehicle (large saloons and estates) the market is very conservative with a lot of people who've always had Passats, but when they see that there isn't one any more they're as likely to look elsewhere as in VW's own range.
They’re also reintroducing the flagship Phaeton luxury saloon, Ferdinand Piech’s last pet project.

Edit: just seen it became the ID 7 but was nearly a gen 2 Phaeton and was in the final stages of production
 

trebor79

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To be fair to them, the fit and finish has gradually been improved and the Shanghai built cars, which is what we’ve been getting here in the UK for nearly the last 2 years, are far better built than the earlier (chrome trim) Model 3’s that were imported from California.
The facelifted new Model 3 appears to be getting good reviews with particular praise for the improved interior quality, even if it’s not up to Merc or BMW levels.

The German built Model Y is again, said to be an improvement on the Chinese built RHD version we receive in Britain.
That model gets a worldwide facelift and update from next year too.

.
Yeah mine's a Shanghai car and it's noticeably nicer inside and less rattly/creaky than the US built loaner I was driving for a couple of weeks whilst mine was being repaired. It's still very spartan and built to a price though. They've managed to sell it as "minimalist chic" when in fact the reason it's minimalist and that there is only a single central screen and no switches is because that's the cheapest way to provide the functionality.
And they've gone too far with no indicator or drive stalks on the refresh model, that's a deal breaker for me and no way will I ever drive one. I've actually like a wiper stalk on mine as the auto-wiper function is ridiculously awful and I'm forever having to intervene via the screen to stop it doing daft things.
VW seem to be making some bizarre decisions, such as getting rid of established names of cars that people buy and would buy the EV version of. The ID.7 is basically an e-Passat. It is chucking away sales not to call it that. Particularly in the area of that sort of vehicle (large saloons and estates) the market is very conservative with a lot of people who've always had Passats, but when they see that there isn't one any more they're as likely to look elsewhere as in VW's own range.
VW's strategy seems to have been to have a completely separate model line up and naming convention for their electric range. This may have made some sense if it was going to be a 20 or 30 year transition, but it's pretty clear that other than a few niches, pretty much all new cars are going to be EV only within a decade. Agree they have totally missed a trick, and it;s doubly odd as they did produce an eGolf which is actually very well regarded in contrast to the iD range to date.
That said, the iD7 appears to be a material improvement in terms of quality and finish to the previous iD models. We just have to see if they can make it for a sensible price and get people to trust the brand again.
 
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VW are beginning to back pedal on a lot of these issues.
They sacked the previous group CEO and the new guy has ordered prompt action to change course.
The ID3 has been facelifted and refreshed, 3 years earlier than in the normal product cycle, even if the user interface replacement won’t appear until the end of next year, at the earliest.
Plus, the ID branding is now going to be phased out and the familiar model names reintroduced.
 

Energy

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and it;s doubly odd as they did produce an eGolf which is actually very well regarded in contrast to the iD range to date.
The eGolf was that generation Golf but with batteries stuffed in. It's well regarded as that generation Golf was a well built, premium car. The subsequent Golf and ID3 both feel cheapened, with the move to everything on the screen being an obvious cost cutting measure.

The "well build hire car" interior is acceptable on an MG but stings on a "premium" VW.


I really don't understand what Stellantis have done with the Astra Electric, its a good car with great efficiency so gets good range despite a small battery and as such good charging times. Vauxhall dealers may be known to give good discounts but at £40k list they'll struggle to get people through the door.
 

Bald Rick

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Interestingly - Govt has confirmed they are sticking to the mandatory minimum % of EVs sold per manufacturer, which ratchets up from 22% next year to 80% by 2030.

How that fits with the delay to 2035 I don’t know!
 

Roast Veg

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Interestingly - Govt has confirmed they are sticking to the mandatory minimum % of EVs sold per manufacturer, which ratchets up from 22% next year to 80% by 2030.

How that fits with the delay to 2035 I don’t know!
It doesn't. Sunak and his team got the headlines they wanted by appealing to the pro-fossil fuel lobby. In the mobility industry funding for charging infrastructure is as yet unchanged (thankfully).
 

Bletchleyite

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Interestingly - Govt has confirmed they are sticking to the mandatory minimum % of EVs sold per manufacturer, which ratchets up from 22% next year to 80% by 2030.

Presumably that means another 5 years at 80%.

How that fits with the delay to 2035 I don’t know!

It's just electioneering, they'll deal with the detail in the extremely unlikely event they actually win.
 

jon0844

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I actually quite liked the interior of the iD3 I test drove, other than the light controls being weirdly and awkwardly placed.

VW got quite a slating and have had to redesign the interior a bit, although the bigger changes won't come until next year. The software was regarded as slow and clunky, and people really do prefer actual buttons for specific things. At least they've acknowledged this and are also dropping the ID naming and returning to recognised model names.

I also don't get what Stellantis is doing with its EV cars, especially as they've got electric cars selling extremely cheaply in some markets (e.g. India) and while I get that we have more rigorous safety standards, I don't see how they could have made an electric C3 that sells for around £11,250 there and can't release one here without likely bumping up the price to £25k or something crazy - to the point where they have said they won't/can't bring it here.

If they have the same bodyshell, based on the ICE version that is sold here, then what is the reason for not selling it? If it's because their margin will be too low, they'll just have to accept that the Chinese will come in and bring more cars for £20-25k very soon.
 
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Noddy

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VW's strategy seems to have been to have a completely separate model line up and naming convention for their electric range. This may have made some sense if it was going to be a 20 or 30 year transition, but it's pretty clear that other than a few niches, pretty much all new cars are going to be EV only within a decade. Agree they have totally missed a trick, and it;s doubly odd as they did produce an eGolf which is actually very well regarded in contrast to the iD range to date.
That said, the iD7 appears to be a material improvement in terms of quality and finish to the previous iD models. We just have to see if they can make it for a sensible price and get people to trust the brand again.

Could they have sold the iD3 as an ‘eGolf’ and the existing ICE Golf at the same time when they are completely different? I think it would have been odd and I can’t think of another manufacturer doing this?

With regards to cost the VW iD3/Cupra Born start around £35k and I would argue these are the types of cars are more relevant to the average consumer than a Jaguar iPace. For context the Golf is £25k (but goes up to 47k!).
 
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greyman42

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The EU deadline is 2035 , I think auto manufacturers are going to be basing their products more around that than our little island
The German manufacturers such as Mercedes, BMW and Audi do very well with our "little island".

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That's still a premium vehicle. How about an MG4, just under £27,000? Or an MG5 estate for around £30k?
Used examples of these can be bought for less than £20k.
What would put me off from buying a used one is the £10,000 cost if the battery fails.
 
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trebor79

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Could they have sold the iD3 as an ‘eGolf’ and the existing ICE Golf at the same time when they are completely different? I think it would have been odd and I can’t think of another manufacturer doing this?

With regards to cost the VW iD3/Cupra Born start around £35k and I would argue these are the types of cars are more relevant to the average consumer than a Jaguar iPace. For context the Golf is £25k (but goes up to 47k!).
The iD3 when it was first released pre-covid was much more reasonably priced (I believe around £25k). once the chip shortage etc hit VW put the pricing up to insane levels, but still had a 1 year + order backlog, because they couldn't get the components to build many. They seem to still be struggling on that front. If you can sell every car you can produce at a high price, why not?
What would put me off from buying a used one is the £10,000 cost if the battery fails.
Didn't bother me when I bought my 2 year old Tesla. 8 year or 120,000 mile warranty on the battery and powertrain and most brands have something similar. As it happens I've just had the rear drive motor replaced by Tesla under warranty (circa £3k repair) without any hassle or argument whatsoever. I thought it was a wheel bearing issue but they said not. They loaned me another model 3 with free supercharging for the 2 weeks mine was off the road. No arguments at all and I didn't even need to utter the word "warranty", I just got a cost estimate of £0 to approve in the app for them to proceed, and then got an invoice discounted down to £0 when it was finished.
Really with the transferable warranties you are no worse off if the battery or whatever goes pop than if you'd owned it from new, just saved yourself a load of depreciation.
 

greyman42

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It'll cost you near that if you need a new engine on an ICE car.
An ICE engine is seen as a more trusted technology than a EV battery.

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Didn't bother me when I bought my 2 year old Tesla. 8 year or 120,000 mile warranty on the battery and powertrain and most brands have something similar.
If you buy a car such as a Tesla with warranty, you should fine.
 

Bald Rick

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The German manufacturers such as Mercede

What would put me off from buying a used one is the £10,000 cost if the battery fails.

a) how many EVs are you aware if that have a failed battery!
b) where have you got the £10k price from?
c) what would be the cost if a complete engine failure requiring replacement?


The iD3 when it was first released pre-covid was much more reasonably priced (I believe around £25k).

it was initially promised to be £25k, but was actually just under £30k for a very base model.
 

greyman42

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a) how many EVs are you aware if that have a failed battery!
Most cars or pretty new, lets see how reliable the batteries are as they age.

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where have you got the £10k price from?
A ball park figure. Perhaps someone could give a more accurate price for a replacement.

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what would be the cost if a complete engine failure requiring replacement?
I don't know but how often does that happen.
 

Energy

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Most cars or pretty new, lets see how reliable the batteries are as they age.
Plenty of old Teslas going around with only a little degradation.

Only the leafs with their poor thermal management are problematic.
A ball park figure. Perhaps someone could give a more accurate price for a replacement.
Depends on the size of battery and the labour involved to swap it. Less than £10k, list Li ion prices are public and are fairly low nowadays.
I don't know but how often does that happen.
More frequently than EV batteries failing.
 

bspahh

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What would put me off from buying a used one is the £10,000 cost if the battery fails.
The MG4 was released in 2022 and has a 7 year 80,000 mile warranty on the battery. It comes with a 51 or 64 kWh battery.

I had a quick look for the cost of a replacement battery. There are a number of sites which quote £87 per kWh (£4437 or £5568 for an MG4) for the battery, plus fitting costs. You might also find that only some of the cells need to be replaced, which would also keep the replacement costs down.

However battery prices have dropped and are predicted to keep dropping in time, so if you bought an MG4 today, and the battery needed to be replaced after the warranty had expired, you would then be paying the replacement cost in 2029.
 

Bald Rick

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Most cars or pretty new, let’s see how reliable the batteries are as they age.

Lots of 9 year old Teslas etc out there. How many have had complete battery failure?

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I don't know but how often does that happen.

Well, I have personally helped replace two complete failed engines. Not an easy job!
 

GLC

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Most cars or pretty new, lets see how reliable the batteries are as they age.
My BMW i3 is 7 years old and its battery health is sitting at 87%. Still one year of battery warranty left, and I only ever use rapid chargers, which are harder on the battery
 

ainsworth74

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The thing that gets me is that most manufacturers appear to be offering warranties that cover 80,000, 100,000 miles or so. The only reason they'll offer warranties of that length is if they're confident, not pretty sure but confident, that their battery packs are going to last at least that long. Which means in reality they will last much longer than the 100,000 miles the warranty offers.

Therefore it's quite obvious that battery pack failure is a red herring. Hardly anyone will see it because if there was a risk of it happening manufactures would not be offering the warranties that they do.
 

Bald Rick

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The only reason they'll offer warranties of that length is if they're confident, not pretty sure but confident, that their battery packs are going to last at least that long.

They are very sure.

A few might fail. But very, very few.
 

stuu

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How could a battery pack fail? They are (always?) made up of many cells wired in parallel. So pretty much impossible to fail instantly
 
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Could they have sold the iD3 as an ‘eGolf’ and the existing ICE Golf at the same time when they are completely different? I think it would have been odd and I can’t think of another manufacturer doing this? ........

There's the new (all electric) Fiat 500, sold alongside the (2007) ICE Fiat 500.

They are completely different cars (the new electric model sits on an all-new EV platform), although visually similar in design.
The electric 500 is slightly larger in L x W x H and has a number of subtle design differences, such as the split headlights.


.
 

Noddy

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There's the new (all electric) Fiat 500, sold alongside the (2007) ICE Fiat 500.

They are completely different cars (the new electric model sits on an all-new EV platform), although visually similar in design.
The electric 500 is slightly larger in L x W x H and has a number of subtle design differences, such as the split headlights.

Yep you are entirely right, I forgot about that one! You could say does keep the family aesthetic of the 500 (rather say a golf vs iD3) but does look suitably different and noticeably larger.
 

MotCO

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The thing that gets me is that most manufacturers appear to be offering warranties that cover 80,000, 100,000 miles or so.
What is the actual guarantee? That it won't be dead at 100,000 miles, or that the battery at that stage will still retain a stated percentage of its charge?

Unless the guarantee says that it will still retain, say, at least 75% of its original charge expressed in range in miles, how useful is that guarantee?
 

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