renegademaster
Established Member
EU are also doing a inquiry into a possible Chinese "dumping" of EVs , if the conclusion of that is "more tarrifs" , its going to make mass EV adoption a hell of a lot harder. Might be a reaction to that
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UK switching to electric vehicles discussion
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RailWonderer
Established Member
You’ll never beat the sound of a nice engine though, being able to rev and do doughnuts. It’s those enthusiasts who will keep on with petrol but everyone else will get used to EVs. I’m sure I’ll be driving petrol on weekends but EV in the weekday.
You can’t say though they’re not considering it given their lack of investment in the infrastructure.
True. Some of the sportier EVs do come with engine noises now though!
But, if it's hooliganism you like, you can't beat an EV. Some plonker in a Mercedes pulled up at me next to the lights this afternoon. Started revving his engine showing off to the young blonde in the passenger seat. Lights went green and he went for it, wheels spinning, engine revving. I let him get half a car length ahead and then gently squeezed the throttle and sailed past him. He pulls up next to me at the next set, same revving and now he's looking at me. So this time I just floored it from the outset and was over the other side of the junction before he'd even crossed the white line, I could faintly hear his tyres screeching. He catches up with me at the next set of lights. No revving, he's looking a bit sheepish and his girlfriend is looking highly amused. She looks over at me, smiles and gives me a thumbs up
. We both drove normally after that, after establishing his flash Merc wasn't as fast as it looked!I loved the feeling of a turbo kicking in, but EVs have instant power and I think people will come to love that.
Yes, some people love the sound of a performance engine and that will be missed (or simulated, such as on the Abarth 500) but with bargains like the MG4 X Power, and VW planning affordable performance cars, I think minds will be changed.
Ironically, while an 'ordinary' EV may be expensive for a lot of people, the power you can offer means a performance EV can be way cheaper than an ICE equivalent.
Yes, some people love the sound of a performance engine and that will be missed (or simulated, such as on the Abarth 500) but with bargains like the MG4 X Power, and VW planning affordable performance cars, I think minds will be changed.
Ironically, while an 'ordinary' EV may be expensive for a lot of people, the power you can offer means a performance EV can be way cheaper than an ICE equivalent.
Whi knows what Labour are considering on any policy? Given that they’ve not been in power for 13.5 years, it’s hardly surprising they haven’t invested in EV infrastructure.
However, they have publicly announced today that they will stick with 2030. Thats good enough for me. Of course they might change their minds, but in that respect they’d only be doing what the conservatives have done today.
renegademaster
Established Member
The EU deadline is 2035 , I think auto manufacturers are going to be basing their products more around that than our little island
And yet up thread someone listed out those companies which had confirmed that they were going to be all electric fleets by 2033 (there's not a lot of choice beyond 2030):
As such, whilst the UK isn't significant enough for companies to go to that date just for us, there are a number of EU countries which have also set their own rules and so have a deadline of 2030 too. That includes; us, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Denmark, Iceland and Norway.
Combined that's probably enough to bring their all electric fleets in line with the UK
I can see problems ahead for European manufacturers who are putting all their eggs in the EV basket. Ford and VW have stopped producing their small ICE cars (Fiesta and Polo), chasing higher profits from larger EV cars, yet at the same time, VW is having to reduce its EV production due to reduced demand (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...cuts-jobs-plummeting-electric-vehicle-demand/)
China seems to be mopping up the small EV car segment - European manufacturers cannot match their prices. So who will buy the larger European EV cars once the company cars sector has been saturated? These cars seem to be eye-watering expensive - I could not see myself being able to afford (or wanting to spend) anywhere north of £60,000 for a car. (eg Jaguar iPace £74,000 https://www.sytner.co.uk/jaguar/new...FyoIM1fwseovVna21WRoCIy0QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
As @JamesT says
If EVs are the complete answer, there would be no need for government interference to
No progress has ever been made with only carrots and no sticks. Ever.
Were people encouraged to drive cars and give up horses? I don't think the government of the day was proposing to ban horses or give tax breaks to encourage the purchase of cars.
I wouldn't buy a horse over a car. If I was in the market for a £40k plus car I'd probably buy a Tesla but being in the £30k car market I'd definantly buy a Toyota hybrid in preference to a MG4 or Hyuandi. If I was still doing high mileage on the motorway I'd buy a Diesel.
Arguably someone doing sub 5,000 miles a year where they use the car to commute could be better off getting an e-bike as their average mileage would be 100 miles a week (so assuming zero weekend miles that's 10 miles each way - or less depending on how below 5,000 miles it is).
Obviously other factors come to play. However even if they only used it when it was dry and between March to October (so not too cold either), assuming half the wording days are dry that's 125 days the bike could be used, at 12p per mile of fuel savings that's £300 a year saved. You could replace the e-bike every 4 years.
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I suggest that not putting all their eggs in the EV basket is a bigger problem. With this transition there are of course going to be issues and problems, especially on the cost and supply side (currently there is over supply, last year it was under supply). But if companies get left behind because they are fixed on continuing to make mostly ICE new brands will replace them and it’s going to be really hard for them to catch up when the market is leaving them behind (I’m looking at Toyota here and it will be interesting to see what happens in the next few years). Cost is absolutely an issue but there are far better and cheaper EVs on the market than the 5 year old ipace.
I suggest that not putting all their eggs in the EV basket is a bigger problem. With this transition there are of course going to be issues and problems, especially on the cost and supply side (currently there is over supply, last year it was under supply). But if companies get left behind because they are fixed on continuing to make mostly ICE new brands will replace them and it’s going to be really hard for them to catch up when the market is leaving them behind (I’m looking at Toyota here and it will be interesting to see what happens in the next few years). Cost is absolutely an issue but there are far better and cheaper EVs on the market than the 5 year old ipace.
Did you forget to press the quote button?
No speed limits were broken.
Yep, major strategic error IMO by the legacy brands not to offer modestly priced EV in the Fiesta/Focus bracket. People are starting to discover MG, BYD and realising that these are perfectly acceptable cars, the EU has awoken to the danger but if they slap tariffs on them that's going to be very politically unpopular both with the Chinese and with their own population who will be forced to pay over the odds for cars.
DustyBin
Established Member
Obviously, however there’s nothing to say the EU deadline won’t change.
I think anything could happen to be honest, although again I think it’s “job done” in terms of nudging (or rather shoving!) the industry to invest in EV technology.
WelshBluebird
Established Member
- Joined
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- 5,605
I actually broadly agree with the rest of your comment, but is a Jaguar really the best example to use there? Granted I've never actually owned a car but have always had the impression Jags are expensive cars that most normal people won't ever go near. They certainly aren't equivalent to Fords etc.
Ok. A Ford Mustang EV is £57,000 - still way out of my price range https://www.allenmotorgroup.co.uk/ford/new-vehicle-offers/mach-e/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=G+|+S+|+Ford+|+New+|+Mustang+Mach+E+|+Tactical&utm_content=19175864304&utm_adgroup143825434269&utm_term=ford mustang mach e&utm_matchtype=e&utm_network=g&gclid=Cj0KCQjw06-oBhC6ARIsAGuzdw2cU69yxwaZPqAwlzJMCAqRMza1r412rUWX3II640EG5kt7GBJXUb0aAljOEALw_wcB&mh_matchtype=e&mh_keyword=ford mustang mach e&mh_adgroupid=143825434269&mh_network=g&ppc_keyword=ford mustang mach e
That's still a premium vehicle. How about an MG4, just under £27,000? Or an MG5 estate for around £30k?
Used examples of these can be bought for less than £20k.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I'd agree with you on Jags, but it highlights the issue that EVs are just at the premium end of the market for now other than the Chinese manufacturers and to an extent Kia (the Niro is a sort of Astra/Focus sized vehicle and is not *that* expensive). There needs to be a far wider range of EVs, then to wait 2-4 years for them to filter through to the used market, before EVs are available to a wider population, though the Chinese ones are a good start (the MG5 for instance is basically an electric Astra estate to any meaningful level, it even looks a bit like one).
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Wasn't the issue being discussed that the European brands are basically throwing money away by not being in this market segment, though? MG is about the only option (shortly joined by BYD) for an affordable mass market EV at the moment unless you like Nissan Leafs.
The Citroen e-C4 is a reasonable family car, but the EV costs twelve grand more than the petrol. This simply cannot be justified - with MG and BYD's similar and much cheaper offerings, they are just pricing themselves out of the market. And how on earth have we ended up with the Berlingo, once a cheap and cheerful van conversion, becoming Citroen's second most expensive car?
(To be fair a similar thing happened with televisions - the coming of flat screens bumped prices up a bit from the CRT days, and the prices largely stayed up)
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The Stellantis EVs are pretty poor offerings. Batteries are too small and their have very poor efficiency, especially in winter. I wouldn't even consider one of their current offerings at the price point they want. Although the cars themselves look decent and I believe an e2008 is coming with a bigger battery for a better useable range.
I also understand that substantial discounts are available once you start talking to a salesman. For the sort of price they want for a fairly limited EV though, you'd just go and buy a used Tesla instead for similar money and far better capability (even if the auto wiper system does drive me mad!).
There is also the Renault Zoe and the VW iD3/Cupra Born are pretty good and not terrifically expensive, and again I understand nobody pays the full price anyway.
DustyBin
Established Member
To be honest they’re pretty mainstream these days and compete with the likes of BMW and Audi. They’re “premium”, but not beyond the means of a lot of ordinary people.
It’s true though that they’re not the best example of an affordable EV!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I would consider BMW and Audi premium cars (and agree Teslas are in the same bracket). Things like Rolls Royces and Maseratis are in a bracket above that - not sure what I'd call it but those are the ones for super-rich people.
They're perhaps owned more widely due to PCPs bringing down monthly payments (at the expense of being little more than a lease - you don't really own the car) but they're not in the mainstream bracket of things like Fords, Vauxhalls, Citroens and such.
DustyBin
Established Member
Yes, pretty much this (although Ford dip their toe in the premium market).
BananaRepublic
Member
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What on earth are “normal people”?
Jaguar in the last 15+ years have been competing in the so called “executive” market and vacated the “luxury” sector many years ago.
Their relatively unsuccessful XE and XF saloon cars are meant to be competitors for the likes of the BMW 3 Series and 5 Series, respectively.
They are the modern day equivalent of the Ford Mondeo, Vauxhall Vectra, etc,
What we used to call rep mobiles.
On the nearly new used market, these cars can be seen by anybody from bricklayers to plumbers, to boy racers et al.
Jaguar’s more popular products though, are their F-Pace and E-Pace SUV’s, which seem to be more popular on the drives and parked outside of typical housing estates.
PCP and other tempting finance honey traps put them well in the range of many middle income families.
Are these not “normal people” ?
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I don't disagree, but my earlier argument was that European manufacturers had vacated this segment - there are few 'usable' European EVs. I agree that you can buy a small EV, but they are mostly Chinese, and I am concerned that they are flooding the market with subsidised cars to destroy the cheap-end small European EV car manufacturing industry. This could change the dynamics of world car production, and maybe other allied industries - steel makers, battery makers etc.
BananaRepublic
Member
- Joined
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- Messages
- 825
The news out of VW is being misrepresented in the MSM.
BEV car sales in Germany are starting to lift of from their steady growth, towards the exponential curve upwards.
So how come VW are having a problem with demand?
Is it largely down to the bad publicity (justifiable) surrounding the poor quality of their current offerings, which isn’t limited to electric vehicles?
The cheap and tacky interiors and absolutely terrible switchgear and computer screen interfaces they have installed in their electrical car range, has been extended to newer ICE models, such as the mk8 Golf.
VW have been panned for this across virtually all the motoring media.
Customers are voting with their feet and resisting paying premium prices for EV’s that give the appearance and feeling of being bargain basement models.
Note:
The best selling car in German and Europe ( that’s both ICE and EV) is the Tesla Model Y.
German BEV car sales in August up 171% year-on-year.
BEV’s and PHEV combined, up 78% yoy.
BEV’s now account for 31.7% of the new car market, as opposed to 16.1% at this point last year.
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