UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[AM9]

I meant that the high performance electric vehicles have dramatically higher acceleration than ICE cars, and that this will cause a lot of them to be scrapped after impacts when the road turns and they are going too fast to do the same.

In the 1980s, a 0-60 time under 8s was a fast hot hatch, under 6s was a supercar (an RS500 Cosworth was 5.6s) and less than 4s was a Group B rally car.

I don't see that high performance tyres will last longer than high quality normal tyres. They will cost more, because they are sold in smaller quantities, and are more likely to use soft compounds for extra grip.
BTW, https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/ is an interesting site to see how many cars are still left on the road. This shows the breakdown of all the Austin Minis that are registered, with their engine sizes.

AUSTIN MINI (model family) - How Many Left?

Statistics for AUSTIN MINI (model family) model family.. See how many cars of any make and model are left on Britain's roads.

www.howmanyleft.co.uk

There are 3 with an engine capacity of > 15000cc (!)

Ok, I didn't spot the euphamism for a prang.

 

[SWT_USER]

Yeah, it’s definitely happing. The UK does seem slightly behind Europe though-I believe (for example) over 90% in the Netherlands and 70% in Germany are open to non-Tesla drivers. I’m not sure why the UK is behind but Tesla are also opening their network in the US (albeit in a very different way) and ultimately it won’t be closed anywhere for that much longer.

Thanks. Do you know what actually needs doing to make them available for everyone? Assumed it would just be a software issue which would be a fairly simple fix but clearly it's more complicated than that.

 

[Ediswan]

I'm pretty sure they meant that almost nobody will be used to that kind of raw power and thus a lot of them will end up against a tree or in a ditch in fairly short order.

In one case I know of, the EV went from being parked on the owner's driveway, to being embedded in the front of their house.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In one case I know of, the EV went from being parked on the owner's driveway, to being embedded in the front of their house.

That's a danger of all automatics. If your foot slips on a manual you'll usually stall it unless it's a very, very torquey diesel (so not most modern small ones). If it happens on an auto or electric, likely you'll demolish your lounge wall or run over your kid.

 

[Noddy]

Thanks. Do you know what actually needs doing to make them available for everyone? Assumed it would just be a software issue which would be a fairly simple fix but clearly it's more complicated than that.

I think that officially it’s a pilot, and there are some regulations/legal issues to do with the fact that you can only pay via a mobile app. I believe version 4 chargers have a screen and contactless payment built in but they haven’t arrived in the UK yet. But in reality I think it’s more to do with Tesla managing the sites so there aren’t queues.

 

[Energy]

I believe version 4 chargers have a screen and contactless payment built in but they haven’t arrived in the UK yet

Fiest in the UK opened a week ago. They have screens and payment terminals built in.

 

[Eyersey468]

Under no circumstances whatsoever would I be giving Musk any money, I'm afraid. And even if he didn't own it, they aren't particularly good cars for the price.

While I don't physically fit in one so it can't be that actual car, the Kia e-Niro is more the sort of EV I'd be looking at. Or possibly the MG5, which I do fit in but can't decide if I fit well enough.

Must admit i wouldn't buy a Tesla either

 

[The Ham]

The SMMT data for August is out:

UK New Car Registration Data - Latest Figures & Statistics | SMMT

Discover the latest UK car registration data: new car registration statistics, the number of cars in the UK, and more.

www.smmt.co.uk

BEV continues to do well with it now being 20.1% of market share (up from 14.5% last August).

Pure ICE vehicles now make up less than 50% of sales with Diesel vehicles in second to last place (last place is mild diesel hybrids).

 

[Cloud Strife]

I'm pretty sure they meant that almost nobody will be used to that kind of raw power and thus a lot of them will end up against a tree or in a ditch in fairly short order.

A cousin wrecked his EV after exactly this. He accelerated too hard out of a corner, got surprised by the amount of sheer power available and simply drove right off the road into a ditch. He was used to his old turbo petrol engine, which had fairly significant turbo lag, and so he was in the habit of pressing down on the accelerator early. In the EV, it simply took off and took him straight into the ditch.

 

[GusB]

A cousin wrecked his EV after exactly this. He accelerated too hard out of a corner, got surprised by the amount of sheer power available and simply drove right off the road into a ditch. He was used to his old turbo petrol engine, which had fairly significant turbo lag, and so he was in the habit of pressing down on the accelerator early. In the EV, it simply took off and took him straight into the ditch.

This isn't the fault of the EV, though. It's the fault of the driver for not properly assessing the performance of the vehicle they're driving; a lesson I learned very quickly after I was added to the insurance for my dad's Ford Sierra. Prior to that, every car I had driven had front wheel drive and I hadn't appreciated the propensity for the back ends of such vehicles to slide in damp conditions!

Since then, every time I have had to drive a different car from the one I'm used to, I always make sure I go out for a leisurely drive on my own in order to familiarise myself with the vehicle's handling. However, I am fortunate enough to have access to a very lightly-used minor road network where I'm unlikely to hold up any other traffic.

 

[renegademaster]

I meant that the high performance electric vehicles have dramatically higher acceleration than ICE cars, and that this will cause a lot of them to be scrapped after impacts when the road turns and they are going too fast to do the same.

In the 1980s, a 0-60 time under 8s was a fast hot hatch, under 6s was a supercar (an RS500 Cosworth was 5.6s) and less than 4s was a Group B rally car.

I don't see that high performance tyres will last longer than high quality normal tyres. They will cost more, because they are sold in smaller quantities, and are more likely to use soft compounds for extra grip.
BTW, https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/ is an interesting site to see how many cars are still left on the road. This shows the breakdown of all the Austin Minis that are registered, with their engine sizes.

AUSTIN MINI (model family) - How Many Left?

Statistics for AUSTIN MINI (model family) model family.. See how many cars of any make and model are left on Britain's roads.

www.howmanyleft.co.uk

There are 3 with an engine capacity of > 15000cc

The amount the national government spends on maintaining roads is pretty small proportion of road tax, it's supposed to be an emissions tax

 

[PTR 444]

In today’s news, Rishi Sunak announces a potential 5-year delay of the 2030 ICE ban.

Rishi Sunak considers weakening key green policies

Plans could include delaying a ban on sales of new petrol cars and the phasing out of gas boilers.

www.bbc.co.uk

Rishi Sunak is considering weakening some of the government's key green commitments in a major policy shift.
It could include delaying a ban on the sales of new petrol and diesel cars and phasing out gas boilers, multiple sources have told the BBC.
The PM is preparing to set out the changes in a speech in the coming days.
There is no suggestion that Mr Sunak is considering abandoning the legal commitment to reach net zero carbon emissions by 2050.
But he is expected to declare that other countries need to bear more of the burden of dealing with climate change.
If Mr Sunak presses ahead with the plan it would represent a significant shift in the Conservative Party's approach to net zero policy, as well as establishing a clear dividing line with the Labour Party.

Personally I can’t see how an extension to the 2030 deadline will make any difference, since I imagine most car manufacturers will have stopped their ICE production lines by then anyway.

 

[johncrossley]

In today’s news, Rishi Sunak announces a potential 5-year delay of the 2030 ICE ban.

Rishi Sunak considers weakening key green policies

Plans could include delaying a ban on sales of new petrol cars and the phasing out of gas boilers.

www.bbc.co.uk

Personally I can’t see how an extension to the 2030 deadline will make any difference, since I imagine most car manufacturers will have stopped their ICE production lines by then anyway.

The whole point is to pretend to be less green, in order to win votes.

 

[jon0844]

The UK isn't important enough to change anything relating to the car industry so I definitely think Rishi is simply being told to be nicer to the oil industry who are crying out (or is that paying out?) for the delay to changes that will hit their bottom line.

The Sun, Telegraph and Daily Mail all have at least one 'you'd have to pay me to buy an EV' type story published per day, so they'll hope to put people off changing car - but I can't see it working at this point, and certainly not in 7 years time.

Even if they continue to make ICE cars available, what choices will there be for the consumer?

 

[Energy]

The Sun, Telegraph and Daily Mail all have at least one 'you'd have to pay me to buy an EV' type story published per day

Turns out the anti-heat pump stories were planted by the gas industry, wouldn't be surprised if some of the anti-EV ones are planted by oil.

 

[trebor79]

In today’s news, Rishi Sunak announces a potential 5-year delay of the 2030 ICE ban.

Rishi Sunak considers weakening key green policies

Plans could include delaying a ban on sales of new petrol cars and the phasing out of gas boilers.

www.bbc.co.uk

Personally I can’t see how an extension to the 2030 deadline will make any difference, since I imagine most car manufacturers will have stopped their ICE production lines by then anyway.

Won't make any difference to me. Both of our cars ar EVs and will stay that way. Wish I'd done it sooner, much nicer to drive and feels great driving past ever more expensive petrol stations.

The Sun, Telegraph and Daily Mail all have at least one 'you'd have to pay me to buy an EV' type story published per day, so they'll hope to put people off changing car - but I can't see it working at this point, and certainly not in 7 years time.

Even if they continue to make ICE cars available, what choices will there be for the consumer?

Those articles make me laugh. They would sound plausible to someone who's never tried an EV, but they're just ridiculously inaccurate.

Oil is heading back over $100 and it's going to stay there as the Saudis want to wrong as much cash as possible from a dying industry. Why on earth some people seem determined to keep paying through the nose for fuel is beyond me.

 

[Noddy]

In today’s news, Rishi Sunak announces a potential 5-year delay of the 2030 ICE ban.

Rishi Sunak considers weakening key green policies

Plans could include delaying a ban on sales of new petrol cars and the phasing out of gas boilers.

www.bbc.co.uk

Personally I can’t see how an extension to the 2030 deadline will make any difference, since I imagine most car manufacturers will have stopped their ICE production lines by then anyway.

This is the key quote from the BBC article:

Conservative MP Chris Skidmore, the former chair of the UK government's net zero review, said diluting net zero policies would "cost the UK jobs, inward investment, and future economic growth that could have been ours by committing to the industries of the future".
Householders "whose bills will remain higher as a result of inefficient fossil fuels and being dependent on volatile international fossil fuel prices" would ultimately pay the price, he added.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Sep 2023 ==

The whole point is to pretend to be less green, in order to win votes.

But making many other less likely to vote for him.

 

[Bald Rick]

But making many other less likely to vote for him.

Reasonable to assume that in his political calculations, he reckons he will lose fewer votes than he will win.

Given the contents of the Telegraph, Mail, Express etc on environmental matters, the number of Conservative voters who will not vote for him because he’s watering down those policies will be pretty small.

Looks like he’s going for a clear point of difference vs Labour.

 

[Noddy]

Reasonable to assume that in his political calculations, he reckons he will lose fewer votes than he will win.

Given the contents of the Telegraph, Mail, Express etc on environmental matters, the number of Conservative voters who will not vote for him because he’s watering down those policies will be pretty small.

Looks like he’s going for a clear point of difference vs Labour.

If you are already a Conservative voter you’re likely to be voting to voting for him anyway unless you really are on the fringes!

 

[Bald Rick]

If you are already a Conservative voter you’re likely to be voting to voting for him anyway unless you really are on the fringes!

That’s what I meant. He won’t lose many blues, but thinks he could well pick up quite a few undecided / reds on the basis of this policy change alone. Especially those who have been convinced by the media that the 2030 ban on ICE only cars would have forced them off the road (which is complete rubbish, but many will think that).

 

[Noddy]

That’s what I meant. He won’t lose many blues, but thinks he could well pick up quite a few undecided / reds on the basis of this policy change alone. Especially those who have been convinced by the media that the 2030 ban on ICE only cars would have forced them off the road (which is complete rubbish, but many will think that).

From my perspective of all the recent Tory leaders he seems like someone who is grounded in reality and is most prepared to be evidence based-hence why he lost the Tory leadership election the first time, precisely because he didn’t give in to what the party members wanted to hear but told them the truth. To a floating voter his major quality is understanding (whether you agree with it or not) of the economy. Readers of the Telegraph/Mail/Express have already made up their minds on the ‘green ****’ but this policy shift gives Labour (without actually doing anything themselves) a clear opportunity to exploit the economic weakness in this decision (especially as oil prices are rising again thanks to Russia and the Saudis and see my reference to his own MPs quote), and the fact it is the Tories own policy, which they put in place and which they have failed to achieve, and are now going to have to legislate to remove.

 

[Mawkie]

Turns out the anti-heat pump stories were planted by the gas industry, wouldn't be surprised if some of the anti-EV ones are planted by oil.

Funny you should say that.... Quentin Wilson and the Fully Charged show have just formalised a campaign to combat misinformation surrounding EVs - nicknamed "Stop Burning Stuff".

Fully Charged teams up with FairCharge to combat EV misinformation

At 10am on Tuesday 19th September 2023, there will be a conference co-hosted by Quintin Willson from FairCharge and Robert

www.whichev.net

 

[jon0844]

Especially those who have been convinced by the media that the 2030 ban on ICE only cars would have forced them off the road (which is complete rubbish, but many will think that).

I guess there are plenty of people that think the ULEZ cameras are really going to be for stopping people leaving their town, when a virtual wall is built (see 15 minute city conspiracies) because ULEZ is all about making money, but then the Mayor is going to stop people being able to use their cars (thus losing the income) and, erm, I can't quite figure out how they think this conspiracy works. Oh yes, something about continuing lockdown and new world orders or is that the world economic forum? All deep state whatever, with the global elites running the show like Elon told us last week..

It really does seem like at this point, people are so confused/lied to that they'll be led to believe the oil industry is our only hope. They'll give us the energy we need to be free!

 

[johncrossley]

because ULEZ is all about making money

This conspiracy theory is particularly bizarre. It is as if Mayor Khan personally pockets some of the £12.50 himself.

 

[stuu]

This conspiracy theory is particularly bizarre. It is as if Mayor Khan personally pockets some of the £12.50 himself.

It's the same everywhere. New houses around here are "only built so the council can pocket the council tax", according to repeated comments on social media/news websites

 

[trebor79]

This conspiracy theory is particularly bizarre. It is as if Mayor Khan personally pockets some of the £12.50 himself.

It was a few years ago that I realised a significant proportion of the population assume/think/believe that the taxes we all pay go into an account under the direct control of the chancellor for that person to spend on whatever they want, including their personal expenditure. Don't know whether I find that amusing or depressing.

 

[jon0844]

Oh dear, Ford (and likely others soon) have said delaying the phasing out of ICE vehicles for sale is a BAD idea. Given these giants have been working hard to move to EV production, they hardly need people now holding off buying an EV because they think there's going to be a shift back to supporting and encouraging the use of fossil fuels.

The choice of vehicles, and engines, has been winding down for years already - a process these companies are not going to want to reverse (if they even could, given the cost of re-tooling factories etc).

I guess he didn't think it through when getting his advice from a body that is almost certainly funded by the oil industry over the car industry.

 

[Roast Veg]

Oh dear, Ford (and likely others soon) have said delaying the phasing out of ICE vehicles for sale is a BAD idea. Given these giants have been working hard to move to EV production, they hardly need people now holding off buying an EV because they think there's going to be a shift back to supporting and encouraging the use of fossil fuels.

The choice of vehicles, and engines, has been winding down for years already - a process these companies are not going to want to reverse (if they even could, given the cost of re-tooling factories etc).

I guess he didn't think it through when getting his advice from a body that is almost certainly funded by the oil industry over the car industry.

Even Toyota have relented and begun producing EVs at scale now, the last major holdout for any large manufacturer. To the mobility industry this just looks like governmental instability.

 

[JamesT]

Oh dear, Ford (and likely others soon) have said delaying the phasing out of ICE vehicles for sale is a BAD idea. Given these giants have been working hard to move to EV production, they hardly need people now holding off buying an EV because they think there's going to be a shift back to supporting and encouraging the use of fossil fuels.

The choice of vehicles, and engines, has been winding down for years already - a process these companies are not going to want to reverse (if they even could, given the cost of re-tooling factories etc).

I guess he didn't think it through when getting his advice from a body that is almost certainly funded by the oil industry over the car industry.

Looking at the table on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_fossil_fuel_vehicles most countries seem to have been aiming at 2035 or 2040 for their phase out of ICE vehicles. So the manufacturers would likely have still been producing new ICE cars after our 2030 deadline.

Delaying the deadline doesn't stop manufacturers shifting towards all-EV, given the virtues extolled by some on here, surely everyone will choose to buy EVs anyway?

 

[Roast Veg]

Delaying the deadline doesn't stop manufacturers shifting towards all-EV, given the virtues extolled by some on here, surely everyone will choose to buy EVs anyway?

There are still people who would opt to buy a horse over a car, despite the "virtues extolled" of the motor car.