CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Western 52]

Excellent, glad to hear you made it

I rode it Swansea to Cardiff. About 5 late leaving Swansea but on time at Cardiff. 72mph at Stormy after a stop at Pyle! Riding home now on a late 153....mind you it rides better than a 197!

 

[Techniquest]

I rode it Swansea to Cardiff. About 5 late leaving Swansea but on time at Cardiff. 72mph at Stormy after a stop at Pyle! Riding home now on a late 153....mind you it rides better than a 197!

I did wonder how the 197s would handle that bit of the mainline, that's a pretty decent bit of oomph!

 

[SuperLuke2334]

They're always slightly out of sync, even between coaches they are too!

M-Th diagrams for next week that include Swansea (they'll likely change for Friday when the full North South service restarts)

2 car:
07:45 Cardiff to Swansea
08:54 Swansea to Cardiff
10:49 Cardiff to Swansea
11:55 Swansea to Cardiff
13:54 Cardiff to Swansea
14:49 Swansea to Cardiff
18:25 Cardiff to Manchester
22:32 Manchester to Shrewsbury

10:06 Cardiff to Swansea
11:01 Swansea to Cardiff
13:12 Cardiff to Swansea (4 car)
15:05 Swansea to Manchester (4 car)
20:30 Manchester to Cardiff (4 car)

05:33 Cardiff to Manchester
09:30 Manchester to Swansea
14:00 Swansea to Cardiff
15:49 Cardiff to Swansea
16:53 Swansea to Cardiff

05:33 Holyhead to Shrewsbury
08:44 Shrewsbury to Cardiff (4 car)
13:12 Cardiff to Swansea (4 car)
15:05 Swansea to Manchester (4 car)
20:30 Manchester to Cardiff (4 car)

4 car all day:
07:17 Cardiff to Manchester
11:30 Manchester to Swansea
16:01 Swansea to Cardiff
17:37 Cardiff to Manchester
21:30 Manchester to Shrewsbury

That's a big step up, I hope it all goes to plan, would be excellent if it does. It's a good sign for the rest of the network!

 

[Jez]

They're always slightly out of sync, even between coaches they are too!

M-Th diagrams for next week that include Swansea (they'll likely change for Friday when the full North South service restarts)

2 car:
07:45 Cardiff to Swansea
08:54 Swansea to Cardiff
10:49 Cardiff to Swansea
11:55 Swansea to Cardiff
13:54 Cardiff to Swansea
14:49 Swansea to Cardiff
18:25 Cardiff to Manchester
22:32 Manchester to Shrewsbury

10:06 Cardiff to Swansea
11:01 Swansea to Cardiff
13:12 Cardiff to Swansea (4 car)
15:05 Swansea to Manchester (4 car)
20:30 Manchester to Cardiff (4 car)

05:33 Cardiff to Manchester
09:30 Manchester to Swansea
14:00 Swansea to Cardiff
15:49 Cardiff to Swansea
16:53 Swansea to Cardiff

05:33 Holyhead to Shrewsbury
08:44 Shrewsbury to Cardiff (4 car)
13:12 Cardiff to Swansea (4 car)
15:05 Swansea to Manchester (4 car)
20:30 Manchester to Cardiff (4 car)

4 car all day:
07:17 Cardiff to Manchester
11:30 Manchester to Swansea
16:01 Swansea to Cardiff
17:37 Cardiff to Manchester
21:30 Manchester to Shrewsbury

Thanks for posting the diagrams. Wow I did not expect so many so soon.

I hadnt noticed the annoucements being out of sync before. I wondered if there were problems as it was the first journey departing from Swansea.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Sep 2023 ==

Excellent, glad to hear you made it

Thanks. it worked in my favour that it was delayed on the down journey to Swansea. At one point live departure boards had shown the 1030 Manchester as cancelled from Cardiff with a new 1410 Cardiff to Swansea service entered so expected a set swap. But then it was reinstated as a Manchester to Swansea service. I would have been gutted to see a 150 arriving whilst i waited at Neath! Also both 002 and 047 were new ones for me so that was a bonus.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Sep 2023 ==

I rode it Swansea to Cardiff. About 5 late leaving Swansea but on time at Cardiff. 72mph at Stormy after a stop at Pyle! Riding home now on a late 153....mind you it rides better than a 197!

Yes it was a little late leaving at Swansea. I did wonder for a few minutes if it was going to be cancelled as another passenger said they overheard a staff member saying there was a fault and it might not run!. But fortunately it did run as planned.

 

[sd0733]

Thanks for posting the diagrams. Wow I did not expect so many so soon.

I hadnt noticed the annoucements being out of sync before. I wondered if there were problems as it was the first journey departing from Swansea.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Sep 2023 ==


Thanks. it worked in my favour that it was delayed on the down journey to Swansea. At one point live departure boards had shown the 1030 Manchester as cancelled from Cardiff with a new 1410 Cardiff to Swansea service entered so expected a set swap. But then it was reinstated as a Manchester to Swansea service. I would have been gutted to see a 150 arriving whilst i waited at Neath! Also both 002 and 047 were new ones for me so that was a bonus

No problem. Not guaranteeing they'll all run, but that's the plan. Is a good jump up for the first full weekday. Once through workings start again fully on Friday I'd say it'll drop back down slightly as units will go back to the Cardiff to Holyheads in all likelihood.

Yes, if stand near the cab or gangways you can always hear one coach start before the other.

The line was going to be closed with signaller sickness at one point until relief was found that was why it was going to be cancelled and restarted and then reinstated again.

 

[Western 52]

In case anyone is interested, here's a shot of 197047/002 arriving at Swansea on today's 1030 from Manchester.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

They're always slightly out of sync, even between coaches they are too!

M-Th diagrams for next week that include Swansea (they'll likely change for Friday when the full North South service restarts)

2 car:
07:45 Cardiff to Swansea
08:54 Swansea to Cardiff
10:49 Cardiff to Swansea
11:55 Swansea to Cardiff
13:54 Cardiff to Swansea
14:49 Swansea to Cardiff
18:25 Cardiff to Manchester
22:32 Manchester to Shrewsbury

150 today

10:06 Cardiff to Swansea
11:01 Swansea to Cardiff
13:12 Cardiff to Swansea (4 car)
15:05 Swansea to Manchester (4 car)
20:30 Manchester to Cardiff (4 car)

This one unallocated as of 5am, supposed to attach to 015 today to make the 4 car

05:33 Cardiff to Manchester
09:30 Manchester to Swansea
14:00 Swansea to Cardiff
15:49 Cardiff to Swansea
16:53 Swansea to Cardiff

175 today

05:33 Holyhead to Shrewsbury
08:44 Shrewsbury to Cardiff (4 car)
13:12 Cardiff to Swansea (4 car)
15:05 Swansea to Manchester (4 car)
20:30 Manchester to Cardiff (4 car)

015

4 car all day:
07:17 Cardiff to Manchester
11:30 Manchester to Swansea
16:01 Swansea to Cardiff
17:37 Cardiff to Manchester
21:30 Manchester to Shrewsbury

002 047

 

[Envoy]

RTT shows the 13.12 (Monday) from Cardiff to Swansea as being a 197 and a 150 combined to make 4 cars?

Realtime Trains | 2B65 1312 Cardiff Central to Swansea | 25/09/2023

Real-time train running information for 2B65 1312 departure from Cardiff Central to Swansea on 25/09/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Western 52]

RTT shows the 13.12 (Monday) from Cardiff to Swansea as being a 197 and a 150 combined to make 4 cars?

Realtime Trains | 2B65 1312 Cardiff Central to Swansea | 25/09/2023

Real-time train running information for 2B65 1312 departure from Cardiff Central to Swansea on 25/09/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Won't happen, they are not compatible.

 

[sd0733]

RTT shows the 13.12 (Monday) from Cardiff to Swansea as being a 197 and a 150 combined to make 4 cars?

Realtime Trains | 2B65 1312 Cardiff Central to Swansea | 25/09/2023

Real-time train running information for 2B65 1312 departure from Cardiff Central to Swansea on 25/09/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

It can't run like that. The 150 is on a diagram which is booked for a 197 which later on couples up. Until one of the units is changed later it'll show as that's what the diagram does but it'll certainly change.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

RTT shows the 13.12 (Monday) from Cardiff to Swansea as being a 197 and a 150 combined to make 4 cars?

Realtime Trains | 2B65 1312 Cardiff Central to Swansea | 25/09/2023

Real-time train running information for 2B65 1312 departure from Cardiff Central to Swansea on 25/09/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Changed to just be 197015 now.

 

[Jez]

Changed to just be 197015 now.

This should be the first 197 calling at Swanline stations (aside from Pyle which had its first 197s yesterday)

 

[sd0733]

Changed to just be 197015 now.

Now changed again to 197051!
Looks to be 2 2 car and 2 3 car 197 diagrams either uncovered or with other units subbing so a lot of swapping going on to get things covered and/or in the right place especially where diagrams attach.

 

[kennythelad]

197103 just arriving at Chester behind 66567 on 6Q97 from Wolverton

 

[Jez]

The number of 197s going to Swansea today look to be the same as yesterday with 014 on 1312 Cardiff to Swansea diagram and 015 and 051 on the 1601 SWansea to Cardiff diagram. Like yesterday a 175 appears to be covering 1 diagram and a pair of 153s today on another diagram. Havent checked any others to see if any 197s might turn up.

 

[anthony263]

1505 from Swansea to Manchester cancelled between Swansea and Cardiff due to a planning error. A class 175 restarting the service from Cardiff at 1623 even though thev197 went down to swansea

 

[Anonymous10]

1505 from Swansea to Manchester cancelled between Swansea and Cardiff due to a planning error. A class 175 restarting the service from Cardiff at 1623 even though thev197 went down to swansea

Probably no driver or conductor for return.

 

[sd0733]

Probably no driver or conductor for return.

There was one but there was an oversight and they didn't sign 197s.

More routes have now been signed off with Crewe-Warrington and Wilmslow-Heald Green via Styal now being able to have upto 4 car 197s with passengers.

Availability has started to dip, hopefully it picks up. Today saw 4 less 197s Available for traffic than there are diagrams leading to short forms and substituting units too.

 

[Anonymous10]

There was one but there was an oversight and they didn't sign 197s.

More routes have now been signed off with Crewe-Warrington and Wilmslow-Heald Green via Styal now being able to have upto 4 car 197s with passengers.

Availability has started to dip, hopefully it picks up. Today saw 4 less 197s Available for traffic than there are diagrams leading to short forms and substituting units too.

Yes sorry that's what I meant no driver or conductor who signs the 197s.

 

[Peter Sarf]

There was one but there was an oversight and they didn't sign 197s.

More routes have now been signed off with Crewe-Warrington and Wilmslow-Heald Green via Styal now being able to have upto 4 car 197s with passengers.

Availability has started to dip, hopefully it picks up. Today saw 4 less 197s Available for traffic than there are diagrams leading to short forms and substituting units too.

I cannot help wondering if Class 197 training is about to become more of a hindrance than fleet availability (or certainly routes passed) ?.

 

[sd0733]

I cannot help wondering if Class 197 training is about to become more of a hindrance than fleet availability (or certainly routes passed) ?.

In theory it shouldn't, usually nobody would be put on a diagram if it's a 197 and they don't sign it.
Sometimes human error happens and someone's left on a job in error or If other ways of covering the job are exhausted theyre left on to avoid the entire job being uncovered. Numbers trained on 197s go up on an almost daily basis so that issue shouldn't be too many instances.

 

[Dan G]

Availability has started to dip, hopefully it picks up. Today saw 4 less 197s Available for traffic than there are diagrams leading to short forms and substituting units too.

Was yesterday a one-off or part of a trend?

Question for everyone; what is the current standing on number of units introduced and number still to be?

 

[sd0733]

Was yesterday a one-off or part of a trend?

Question for everyone; what is the current standing on number of units introduced and number still to be?

They've certainly have their issues. Coupling/uncoupling, toilets, ASDO are the most common issues but there were a couple of more unusual ones yesterday, Gear Box and transmission issues on a couple of units.

The 3 car units seem especially unreliable, for example today of the 5 sets only 1 is in service plus one in the south on training. There seems more issues on them not failures too, maybe its just theyre 50% bigger there's more to go wrong!

Current standings seem to be:
Non-ERTMS 2 car 27/30 accepted (005,024,050 outstanding)
ERTMS 2 car 0/21 accepted
(003, 022,023,025-041 outstanding)
Standard only 3 car 5/12 Accepted (102,103,105-109 outstanding)
1st class 3 car 0/14 accepted
(113-126 outstanding)

In total 32 of the 77 units are accepted for service with 45 still to go.

2 car sets currently have 23 diagrams, 19 in service, 3 training and 1 rescue and recovery in the South.

3 car sets on paper have 4 diagrams all In service.

 

[Western 52]

Most new fleets have their teething problems, so hopefully they'll improve. In the meantime TfW should perhaps hang on to some 175s a bit longer.

 

[60159]

They've certainly have their issues. Coupling/uncoupling, toilets, ASDO are the most common issues but there were a couple of more unusual ones yesterday, Gear Box and transmission issues on a couple of units.

The 3 car units seem especially unreliable, for example today of the 5 sets only 1 is in service plus one in the south on training. There seems more issues on them not failures too, maybe its just theyre 50% bigger there's more to go wrong!

Current standings seem to be:
Non-ERTMS 2 car 27/30 accepted (005,024,050 outstanding)
ERTMS 2 car 0/21 accepted
(003, 022,023,025-041 outstanding)
Standard only 3 car 5/12 Accepted (102,103,105-109 outstanding)
1st class 3 car 0/14 accepted
(113-126 outstanding)

In total 32 of the 77 units are accepted for service with 45 still to go.

2 car sets currently have 23 diagrams, 19 in service, 3 training and 1 rescue and recovery in the South.

3 car sets on paper have 4 diagrams all In service.

That info is so helpful thanks.
005 seems to have been around for a while but not accepted. Any particular reason?

 

[sd0733]

Most new fleets have their teething problems, so hopefully they'll improve. In the meantime TfW should perhaps hang on to some 175s a bit longer.

AFAIK that wasn't an option and a short term extension to the lease wasn't possible. They're the leasing companies assets and It's their decision where they're offered.

Even if it was, with the numbers of 197s now based at Chester it wouldn't be problematic to maintain a fleet of 197s and a residual fleet of 175s there too.

That info is so helpful thanks.
005 seems to have been around for a while but not accepted. Any particular reason?

Not sure if I'm honest. Does seem that all the outstanding non-ERTMS 2 cars were delivered quite a while ago, they've certainly been out and about on their mileage but never seem to make it through to acceptance.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Most new fleets have their teething problems, so hopefully they'll improve. In the meantime TfW should perhaps hang on to some 175s a bit longer.

Like it’s their decision to make

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Sep 2023 ==

AFAIK that wasn't an option and a short term extension to the lease wasn't possible. They're the leasing companies assets and It's their decision where they're offered.

Aha beat me to it!
Still no announcement as to where they’re needed instead, but it’s definitely been said many times that they need to be gone.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

AFAIK that wasn't an option and a short term extension to the lease wasn't possible. They're the leasing companies assets and It's their decision where they're offered.

Even if it was, with the numbers of 197s now based at Chester it wouldn't be problematic to maintain a fleet of 197s and a residual fleet of 175s there too.

Not sure if I'm honest. Does seem that all the outstanding non-ERTMS 2 cars were delivered quite a while ago, they've certainly been out and about on their mileage but never seem to make it through to acceptance.

005 was at Wolverton for a period, and was quite a late delivery from the factory anyway as I understand it.

 

[sd0733]

005 was at Wolverton for a period, and was quite a late delivery from the factory anyway as I understand it.

It was definitely a lot later than the other low numbered ones. Not sure when exactly it was taken there but it has been at Crewe/Chester for a long while.

 

[Peter Sarf]

They've certainly have their issues. Coupling/uncoupling, toilets, ASDO are the most common issues but there were a couple of more unusual ones yesterday, Gear Box and transmission issues on a couple of units.

The 3 car units seem especially unreliable, for example today of the 5 sets only 1 is in service plus one in the south on training. There seems more issues on them not failures too, maybe its just theyre 50% bigger there's more to go wrong!

Current standings seem to be:
Non-ERTMS 2 car 27/30 accepted (005,024,050 outstanding)
ERTMS 2 car 0/21 accepted
(003, 022,023,025-041 outstanding)
Standard only 3 car 5/12 Accepted (102,103,105-109 outstanding)
1st class 3 car 0/14 accepted
(113-126 outstanding)

In total 32 of the 77 units are accepted for service with 45 still to go.

2 car sets currently have 23 diagrams, 19 in service, 3 training and 1 rescue and recovery in the South.

3 car sets on paper have 4 diagrams all In service.

My bold.

My guess is the 3car 197s are more recent deliveries ?. If so then thy will be further back along the batch tub curve of reliability. But arguably/simplictically 3car would have 150% of problems compared to a 2car.

One query is I make that 20 outstanding ERTMS or is there another unit number missing from your list ?.

Thanks for the lists anyway - a lot more than I knew.