Small classes, special purposes in the 1950s

[6Gman]

Okay, to explain - my interest is mainly in railway operating rather than engineering. And I'm intrigued by what locos were used for, rather than what they looked like, who designed them or what colour they were painted. And my particular interest is in the 1950s.

The use of some classes is pretty obvious and/or well-known (e.g. Edge Hill Princesses or Toton 8Fs) but some are rather harder to establish.

So, I thought I'd start a thread, hoping some of you well-informed folk will be able to help.

To start - LMS Sentinels 47181-4, 47190/1. These were tiny locos weighing between 19 and 27 tons.

The first two (47190/1) were bought in 1929 by the Somerset & Dorset. They were based at Radstock, were still there in 1955, and worked a colliery branch with limited clearance (low bridge?).
The LMS purchased three in 1930 (47181-3) and one more in 1932. By 1955 they were based at Crewe (47181/4), Ayr (47182) and Shrewsbury (47183). The Shrewsbury loco was I think outbased at the Clee Hill Quarry - I believe it had to be hauled up and down an incline for access so a lightweight loco was useful! But what did the Ayr and Crewe locos do? Something - presumably - that required a small and light loco!

More to follow, but

 

[Taunton]

To start - LMS Sentinels 47181-4, 47190/1. These were tiny locos weighing between 19 and 27 tons.

The first two (47190/1) were bought in 1929 by the Somerset & Dorset. They were based at Radstock, were still there in 1955, and worked a colliery branch with limited clearance (low bridge?).

It was. They worked into Tyning colliery at Radstock, which had a very low archway entrance. Their predecessors had been a couple of Victorian industrial-type 0-4-0T, similarly squat, some of the small handful of locos actually built at the S&D's Highbridge works, whose blue livery was kept well polished by their crew, so they were known as "The Dazzlers".

Although oddball on the LMS, they were a standard geared Sentinel design, supplied to various industrial works at home and overseas.

All commemorated by a new housing development nearby at Midsomer Norton, where they also worked, which backs onto the old S&D main line. Sentinel Way leads to Jinty Close and Dazzler Drive. Builder must be an S&D enthusiast . It's here:

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

 

[Merle Haggard]

The LMS purchased three in 1930 (47181-3) and one more in 1932. By 1955 they were based at Crewe (47181/4),

I think the two at Crewe South (together with a L&Y 'Pug', at times 51218) formed a sort of 'hire fleet' for when traders with rail connections had problems with their own 'industrial' locos. I think I've seen a photo somewhere of one of the Sentinels there on a 'Weltrol' presumably ready to be moved when required, which would generally be at short notice. The only solid evidence I have is that one of the Northamptonshire ironstone quarries hired a 'Pug' in the '50s when they had a loco shortage. I don't know of any requirement at Crewe itself for small locos - the Works locos were separate and kept inside the Works.

 

[Bevan Price]

Up to 3 Sentinels spent some time at Sutton Oak mpd (St.Helens), and I was told they were hired to local industries without their own locos.

 

[6Gman]

Thanks for the interesting replies. Since the Lanky Pugs have ben mentioned I'll look at them next.

There were 23 left in 1955, with 16 at ex-L&Y sheds.

Bank Hall (10) for Liverpool Docks work?
Goole (4) again for dock work?
Agecroft (2) for Salford Docks?

In passing, I note that the Mersey Docks & Harbour Board and the Manchester Ship Canal Co. had their own locos too.

The remaining locos were at:

Crewe South (3) - maybe the "hire fleet" mentioned?
Bristol Barrow Road (2) - I have a vague idea there was a siding here with restricted clearances?
Derby (1) - no idea of this one.
Bromsgrove (1) - again, no idea. Definitely not for banking ! ! ! Mystery solved! It was drafted in to pre-heat oil for the Garratt 69999 which was allocated (briefly) for banking duties there. It replaced Caledonian Pug 56020 and was only there May to September 1955 when it was transferred to Derby. Subsequently it went to Bristol from where it was eventually withdrawn. I have read a somewhat amusing account of how it went light engine Bromsgrove to Derby with frequent stops to top up coal and water! !

Comment invited.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

The Agecroft 'Pugs' were mostly used in New Bailey Street Goods Depot in Salford - the original terminus of the Manchester and Bolton Rly. The Manchester Ship Canal had their own locos to work the docks.

 

[Taunton]

Bristol Barrow Road (2) - I have a vague idea there was a siding here with restricted clearances?

Yes, the sidings were the former-LMS St Philips goods depot, which extended right down to the riverbank almost underneath the east end of Temple Meads station, from where the locos were occasionally visible in the distance. 51217 and 51218 (later preserved) in my time, into 1962, but various predecessors. You couldn't quite make out the numbers from the platform end, so which one of the pair it was caused angst to the spotters there! Otherwise you had to bunk Barrow Road shed. Mostly replaced by Class 03 diesels by this time, but one occasionally steamed. And, pulling two sections together, an S&D Sentinel was given an occasional run there as well. Never saw it there though.

 

[Morayshire]

But what did the Ayr and Crewe locos do? Something - presumably - that required a small and light loco!

From a thread over on RMWEB

The Ayr loco men called her the 'Chip Cairt'. The Sentinal was used to shunt the south side of Ayr harbour and had to cross the long gone bridge which was said to be in a poor way and unable to take heavy locomotives.

Quote above from this link:

RMWEB thread on models of Scottish locomotives

 

[Rescars]

Okay, to explain - my interest is mainly in railway operating rather than engineering. And I'm intrigued by what locos were used for, rather than what they looked like, who designed them or what colour they were painted. And my particular interest is in the 1950s.

The use of some classes is pretty obvious and/or well-known (e.g. Edge Hill Princesses or Toton 8Fs) but some are rather harder to establish.

So, I thought I'd start a thread, hoping some of you well-informed folk will be able to help.

To start - LMS Sentinels 47181-4, 47190/1. These were tiny locos weighing between 19 and 27 tons.

The first two (47190/1) were bought in 1929 by the Somerset & Dorset. They were based at Radstock, were still there in 1955, and worked a colliery branch with limited clearance (low bridge?).
The LMS purchased three in 1930 (47181-3) and one more in 1932. By 1955 they were based at Crewe (47181/4), Ayr (47182) and Shrewsbury (47183). The Shrewsbury loco was I think outbased at the Clee Hill Quarry - I believe it had to be hauled up and down an incline for access so a lightweight loco was useful! But what did the Ayr and Crewe locos do? Something - presumably - that required a small and light loco!

More to follow, but

The Shrewsbury loco was on home turf - the Sentinel Waggon Works was located in Shrewsbury.

 

[randyrippley]

this thread from last year is relevant

LMS Sentinel locos

Between 1929 & 1932 the LMS/ S&D bought a few Sentinel geared steam locos. Basically, what were they used for? By 1955 they were based at Crewe South (2), Bath (2), Shrewsbury (1) and Ayr (1). The Shrewsbury loco was used at Clee Hill. The Bath locos were, I think, outbased at Radstock (for...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[6Gman]

Thank you for the responses which have been most helpful. More to come!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

British Railways no 1 - "Hercules"

Acquired from the Ystalyfera Tinplate works , with the works (converted for wagon repairs) , came the proud engine. Twinned with Steptoe and Son's horse (for those of a certain age)

 

[david_g]

Staying in South Wales, the three Taff Vale tanks 193(GW792)194(793) & 195(794) built to work the Pwllyrhebog incline which just made it into the fifties. Inclined boilers and able to be cable assisted up & down the incline. The incline closed in 1951.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Here's a little anecdote about the mindset of trainspotters - or at least, mine.

When I was a young spotter there were plenty of ironstone quarries and steelworks around here, all with 'industrial' locos. I had not the least interest in them - they were boring and not being in the ABC's was the last straw..

On the other hand, some of the most 'desirable' locos to underline were the small dock shunters at Swansea that the GWR had taken over from the dock haiulage contractors. They looked special, GWR cab side number plates, smokebox and shed plates and the brass (or copper) bits on the top of the boiler. I was so excited to see them when I visited East Dock and Danygraig.

It was only later that I found out that, for instance, 1151/2 were standard Peckett built 'industrials' camouflaged by the standard GWR shroud for the safety valves and a few other minor details. Apart from that, just like the ones at Blisworth or Irchester...

 

[6Gman]

Here's a little anecdote about the mindset of trainspotters - or at least, mine.

When I was a young spotter there were plenty of ironstone quarries and steelworks around here, all with 'industrial' locos. I had not the least interest in them - they were boring and not being in the ABC's was the last straw..

On the other hand, some of the most 'desirable' locos to underline were the small dock shunters at Swansea that the GWR had taken over from the dock haiulage contractors. They looked special, GWR cab side number plates, smokebox and shed plates and the brass (or copper) bits on the top of the boiler. I was so excited to see them when I visited East Dock and Danygraig.

It was only later that I found out that, for instance, 1151/2 were standard Peckett built 'industrials' camouflaged by the standard GWR shroud for the safety valves and a few other minor details. Apart from that, just like the ones at Blisworth or Irchester...

Indeed. Rather later but boy do I regret not taking more notice of the Middlesbrough dock locos (some of which were ex-BR) or the loco stood alongside a road as we walked down to the transporter bridge!

 

[Taunton]

British Railways no 1 - "Hercules"

Acquired from the Ystalyfera Tinplate works , with the works (converted for wagon repairs)

I believe it had only been with the tin works for a few years, being passed around secondhand as industrial locos commonly were, coming from elsewhere in WW2 when tinplate demand was high. The works went bankrupt just at the end of 1947 when BR was formed, and the loco was acquired as an offset for outstanding unpaid rail freight charges. It was numbered in the old GWR series, but never ran as such for the company. However it got the prime BR number, goodness knows. Could it have actually been the first loco bought by BR?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I believe it had only been with the tin works for a few years, being passed around secondhand as industrial locos commonly were, coming from elsewhere in WW2 when tinplate demand was high. The works went bankrupt just at the end of 1947 when BR was formed, and the loco was acquired as an offset for outstanding unpaid rail freight charges. It was numbered in the old GWR series, but never ran as such for the company. However it got the prime BR number, goodness knows. Could it have actually been the first loco bought by BR?

I believe it had only been with the tin works for a few years, being passed around secondhand as industrial locos commonly were, coming from elsewhere in WW2 when tinplate demand was high. The works went bankrupt just at the end of 1947 when BR was formed, and the loco was acquired as an offset for outstanding unpaid rail freight charges. It was numbered in the old GWR series, but never ran as such for the company. However it got the prime BR number, goodness knows. Could it have actually been the first loco bought by BR?

Very hard to find any information on this celebrated , and no doubt hard working little engine in it's (I restrain from calling it "her") moment of glory. It appears it was in service until around 1950 - and well known search for Peckets in Ystalyfera (a place I attended briefly secondary school) , has comments - "Not Hercules" ..........

 

[Taunton]

Maybe you can tell us all how to pronounce the place

In service until January 1954 according to some accounts.

 

[Merle Haggard]

The R.C.T.S. Locos of the G.W.R. part 10 has a little extra; 'the engine had been derelict for some years' and 'was overhauled at Danygraig' and withdrawn in Jan 54. Oddly, the book gives no details of its earlier history, which contrasts with the detail given for other locos. bought secondhand (by the GWR and its constituents). What is never clear is whether the acquisition was a reluctant one in settlement of debt, or was specifically sought after for a particular requirement - the book says it was 'acquired from then liquidators' which may or may not be different from 'in settlement of debt'. Similarly, the tin works site became, I've read somewhere, a wagon works - it's not clear whether B.R. were the reluctant recipients of.a derelict works in settlement of debtand searched for a use for it or were looking for a suitable site for a wagon works. With all the detailed interest in everything G.W.R. it's surprising that there's these little mysteries.

 

[Taunton]

Never a GWR loco, but adopted their practices, including that oddball locos received the lowest numbers (contrast to the A4s on the LNER!). The previous GWR No 1 had been withdrawn as long ago as 1924, a 2-4-0T, but not the common Metro type, from Swindon, it had been a one-off assembly of various parts from older locos, principally from a 4-4-0T.

 

[Rescars]

I believe it had only been with the tin works for a few years, being passed around secondhand as industrial locos commonly were, coming from elsewhere in WW2 when tinplate demand was high. The works went bankrupt just at the end of 1947 when BR was formed, and the loco was acquired as an offset for outstanding unpaid rail freight charges. It was numbered in the old GWR series, but never ran as such for the company. However it got the prime BR number, goodness knows. Could it have actually been the first loco bought by BR?

Perhaps the choice of such an exalted number for such a diminutive loco was one of those little jokes which emanated periodically from Swindon? Like Collett proposing to name his "new" Dukedogs after the main board directors.

 

[Gloster]

1 was built for Baldwins Cwmavon Works (possibly called Jersey), moving to Briton Ferry Collieries, probably early in World War II, and to Ystalyfera in World War II via a dealer. (Sources: various and probably accurate.)

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Maybe you can tell us all how to pronounce the place

In service until January 1954 according to some accounts.

Thank you very much. (there were some odd balls in the area - like a LSWR shunter called "Honfleur" which ended up in Gwaun-Cae -Gurwen !

Ystalyfera - "US - TAL -Y -Vera" (good enough) - tonights rugby featured "Cwmtwrch" - a challenger for the non - locals , the Welsh captain comes from there (Valley of the Boar - a mile down the road - you need a passing Dutch style pronounciation for "chhhh" - as in Groningen ....!)

 

[norbitonflyer]

It seems GWR practice was only to give acquired locomotives new numbers if their existing numbers duplicated one already allocated to a GWR locomotive. Hence the two Corris Railway locomotives could keep their numbers 3 and 4 when the GWR acquired them (Corris Nos 1 and 2 having been withdrawn many years before), and these in turn became their BR numbers.
The Tallyllyn acquired them very early in its history to augment its original locomotive fleet, both of which dated from the opening of the line 90 years before. The ex-Corris locomotives therefore took the next two avaialble numbers in the Tallyllyn's fleet list - which by a happy coincidence were again 3 and 4! Four owners but the same numbers throughout.

 

[Gloster]

Thank you very much. (there were some odd balls in the area - like a LSWR shunter called "Honfleur" which ended up in Gwaun-Cae -Gurwen !

Ystalyfera - "US - TAL -Y -Vera" (good enough) - tonights rugby featured "Cwmtwrch" - a challenger for the non - locals , the Welsh captain comes from there (Valley of the Boar - a mile down the road - you need a passing Dutch style pronounciation for "chhhh" - as in Groningen ....!)

LSWR/SR/BR 95/30095 was sold to the Ministry of Fuel and Power in spring 1949 and worked at Wernos and Gwaun-cae-Gurwen until scrapped in October 1957. Others of this class saw post-BR industrial use at Bilston, Blaenavon, East Yelland (construction work), Skinningrove and (briefly) Stanton.

 

[6Gman]

Next !

Small locos, but not a small class. Ivatt 2-6-2Ts 41200-41330.

Intended as a branch line loco and a great success. I'm very familiar with the use made of them at some locations but can anyone clarify what use was made of the locos at the following (based on 1955 allocations):

14A Cricklewood - 2 locos
3C Walsall 3E Monument Lane - 1 and 3
25A Wakefield - 3
25F Low Moor - 4 (Bradford-Penistone ?)
25G Farnley Junction - 6
27B Aintree - 2

Thanks.

 

[Gloster]

Aintree - possibly Rainford Junction-Ormskirk.

EDIT: .disused-stations has a photo of an Aintree allocated Ivatt at Skelmersdale.

 

[6Gman]

Next I consider the Stanier 0-4-4Ts of 1932, 41900-9.

In mid-1955 they were based as follows (with my thoughts/questions on use):

Crewe North - 1 41901. Used on the Northwich locals? (Alongside the Ivatt 2MTs)
Lancaster - 3 41900/3/4. Used on the LNW route to Morecambe (via Bare Lane) ? The direct Lancaster-Morecambe (ex-MR) was electrified. Perhaps to Heysham?
Watford Jn - 2 41908/9. Sta Albans? Belmont?
Buxton - 2 41905/6. Used on the shuttles to Millers Dale.
Walsall - 1 41902. Any ideas?
Longsaight - 1 41907. Again, any ideas?

TIA

 

[Strathclyder]

It seems GWR practice was only to give acquired locomotives new numbers if their existing numbers duplicated one already allocated to a GWR locomotive. Hence the two Corris Railway locomotives could keep their numbers 3 and 4 when the GWR acquired them (Corris Nos 1 and 2 having been withdrawn many years before), and these in turn became their BR numbers.
The Tallyllyn acquired them very early in its history to augment its original locomotive fleet, both of which dated from the opening of the line 90 years before. The ex-Corris locomotives therefore took the next two avaialble numbers in the Tallyllyn's fleet list - which by a happy coincidence were again 3 and 4! Four owners but the same numbers throughout.

OT, but The Corris Railway didn't last long at all under BR ownership; only a few months at most IIRC?

 

[randyrippley]

Next I consider the Stanier 0-4-4Ts of 1932, 41900-9.

In mid-1955 they were based as follows (with my thoughts/questions on use):

Crewe North - 1 41901. Used on the Northwich locals? (Alongside the Ivatt 2MTs)
Lancaster - 3 41900/3/4. Used on the LNW route to Morecambe (via Bare Lane) ? The direct Lancaster-Morecambe (ex-MR) was electrified. Perhaps to Heysham?
Watford Jn - 2 41908/9. Sta Albans? Belmont?
Buxton - 2 41905/6. Used on the shuttles to Millers Dale.
Walsall - 1 41902. Any ideas?
Longsaight - 1 41907. Again, any ideas?

TIA

the Lancaster ones are discussed here https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/stanier-2ps-at-lancaster.227875/