Northern Practice at Stations

[Davidf14]

As a regular Northern user I am continually frustrated aat stations when thee conductor takes ages to release thhe doors. I would prefer if thee driver released them only for the conductor to close them again afterwards. It often takes the conductor a minute or so to release them as they are busy doing something else - I guess this would cause a cat among the pigeons with the unions.

Second of all, and this only seems to be with Northern, is the fact that the conductor has to get out and check along the length of the train before release the whole set off doors. Why is this as other operators don't do this??? All serves to frustrate passengers and I know this only takes seconds, but all these seconds affect punctuality.

 

[hexagon789]

Why is this as other operators don't do this???

Other operators do, certainly ScotRail practice this.

 

[Moonshot]

As it stands now, there are no facilities for drivers to release doors within the driving cab.

 

[Deafdoggie]

There's lots to unpack there.
Reasons drivers don't open doors can be various, including, but not limited to, train stock doesn't have a driver control panel, stopping point means all doors can't be opened. Plus, of course, union agreement. But there's no point in getting union agreement if you still can't do it!
Guards are supposed to check train is in platform and all doors are in platform before release. Arguably this is more important at some stations than others. A 2 car train at Piccadilly is unlikely to be an issue, but at a 2 coach length platform, could be an issue.

 

[jamiearmley]

Two people involved in the dispatch process is safer than one. They perform checks and balances on each other.
In this particular circumstance, I can tell you that the platform check results in guards stepping back on and using the bell codes to draw the train forward so it is fully accommodated on the platform with surprising frequency...... Perhaps due in part to the wildly varying train and platform lengths in Northern land.

However, one should always plan ones duties so that you are stood at the correct doors on approach to the platform, and the time between the train stopping and a full door release should be minimal.

 

[swt_passenger]

SWT and now SWR have been well known for their guards stepping off the train to check correct platforming before opening the rest of the doors. It’s definitely not just Northern.

 

[skyhigh]

Second of all, and this only seems to be with Northern, is the fact that the conductor has to get out and check along the length of the train before release the whole set off doors. Why is this as other operators don't do this???

Absolutely not just Northern, and it is to ensure the train is fully platformed.

 

[yorkie]

Two people involved in the dispatch process is safer than one. They perform checks and balances on each other.

The OP was asking about opening, not closing.

Also that's your opinion but not an absolute fact; see Belgrove for example.

.... one should always plan ones duties so that you are stood at the correct doors on approach to the platform, and the time between the train stopping and a full door release should be minimal.

If only this consistently happened on Northern! It still wouldn't be as quick as elsewhere but would be a start!

 

[185]

There is a thread on here specifically complaining about delays in Driver Only Operated trains door procedures.

As mentioned above, the draw forward code is still used occasionally where drivers stopped wrongly.

- So it must be one, or the other. Or, neither is slower.

Either way two pairs of eyes are better than one.

 

[Purple Train]

I haven't noticed any differences with the Northern dispatch procedure compared to others involving guards.

The only time I've had long delays between stopping and releasing was on a 170 along the North Staffordshire Line which was jam-packed (on a day when XC had completely gone pear-shaped) and the poor conductor was trying to sort out people with messed-up connections, and sell tickets, and fight her way through the train. Most stations had at least a minute between stop and release, and it was probably around two minutes at Blythe Bridge. The train was seven minutes late at Derby and 22L by Crewe.

Personally, I'd rather have a proactive guard who at least tried to solve passengers' problems than one who stayed in the back cab.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

Two people involved in the dispatch process is safer than one.

There is no evidence to support this.

 

[Russel]

Second of all, and this only seems to be with Northern, is the fact that the conductor has to get out and check along the length of the train before release the whole set off doors. Why is this as other operators don't do this??? All serves to frustrate passengers and I know this only takes seconds, but all these seconds affect punctuality.

To check if the platform, that has been there for 100+ years, is still there?

I agree, it's frustrating

 

[td97]

As a regular Northern user I am continually frustrated aat stations when thee conductor takes ages to release thhe doors. I would prefer if thee driver released them only for the conductor to close them again afterwards. It often takes the conductor a minute or so to release them as they are busy doing something else - I guess this would cause a cat among the pigeons with the unions.

Northern 195 and 331 door open procedure is the slowest I've observed on the NR network. It is not uncommon for the guard to faff for 30 seconds to successfully release doors. Many services are booked with a 30s dwell, so clearly this system is less than ideal for timekeeping.
That Northern didn't use the opportunity to implement driver release, guard close when 195/331s were rolled out (as TPE did with their 802s) is a decision likely responsible for hundreds of thousands of pounds of delay minutes after 4 years of service.
Are any other posters aware of future aspirations to implement driver release on 195/331s?
Sprinters, 319s & 323s have a very quick door release, and I would be surprised if your post was created on account of your experience of one of these.

Second of all, and this only seems to be with Northern, is the fact that the conductor has to get out and check along the length of the train before release the whole set off doors. Why is this as other operators don't do this??? All serves to frustrate passengers and I know this only takes seconds, but all these seconds affect punctuality.

The only benefit of guard open is that the guard must check that the train is fully platformed before releasing doors. On occasion, the guard will send multiple buzzes to the driver who will move the train forward slightly if the train is not fully platformed. In fairness, I have experienced several services where this has happened, most recently at Deansgate on Saturday.

 

[Andyh82]

That Northern didn't use the opportunity to implement driver release, guard close when 195/331s were rolled out (as TPE did with their 802s) is a decision likely responsible for hundreds of thousands of pounds of delay minutes after 4 years of service.

The union wouldn’t allow it. They’d see it as a downgrade to the role of the guard, a slippery slope to drivers opening and closing the doors, and they’d say something along the lines of ‘fat cat Arriva bus bosses putting profits before safety’

It’s awkward the way 195/331s have to be opened and closed from within the saloon rather than at the end

 

[skyhigh]

To check if the platform, that has been there for 100+ years, is still there?

To check if the train, that has been stopped there for considerably less than 100+ years, is in the right place maybe?

 

[D6130]

fat cat Arriva bus bosses putting profits before safety’

What have Arriva got to do with it? Northern is an OLR operation....that is, effectively nationalised.

 

[td97]

The union wouldn’t allow it.

The same union that allowed it on TPE?

What have Arriva got to do with it? Northern is an OLR operation....that is, effectively nationalised.

This is referring to 195/331 entry into service in 2019 with Arriva Rail North.

 

[D6130]

The same union that allowed it on TPE?

This is referring to 195/331 entry into service in 2019 with Arriva Rail North.

Ah....fair enough!

 

[jamiearmley]

To check if the train, that has been stopped there for considerably less than 100+ years, is in the right place maybe?

Moston is a good example of a platform which had been there for considerable time and then suddenly one dark morning ...wasn't.....

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Moston is a good example of a platform which had been there for considerable time and then suddenly one dark morning ...wasn't.....

Erm, what happened?.

 

[TUC]

If the train has not overshot the platform, and the trainset length is known to be within the size of the platform what is there to check?-unless any of the carriages have become detached, in which cases one assumes that operating the door controls from the parts of the train which are at the station will have little effect on them.

 

[jamiearmley]

Erm, what happened?.

Freight wagon clipped the edge of the platform, pulling away coping stones and revealing a void under the platform . Jan 2015. There's an RAIB report available online.

Happened in the dark, not reported because went unnoticed until a passenger train appeared a few hours later.

 

[TUC]

This is one of these issues where the public can understand when there is the same practice in the same type of train, with similar staffing, across all TOCs. What seems impossible to justify is different practices between TOCs or different practices between depots.

 

[james_the_xv]

f the train has not overshot the platform, and the trainset length is known to be within the size of the platform what is there to check?-unless any of the carriages have become detached, in which cases one assumes that operating the door controls from the parts of the train which are at the station will have little effect on them.

Assumptions that an activity is safe, because theoretically it should be in normal operation, isn’t safe practice in safety critical operations.

Let’s say you had a 2x2 car train, the driver is distracted/fatigued/another reason, and stops at a 2 car marker rather than a 4 car leaving 3 doors overhanging the platform. Doors get released, distracted passenger on phone doesn’t look and falls from train to ground from the rear door. RAIB get involved, staff get investigated, potential legal action. All this risk can be mitigated by the guard taking 5 seconds to check the train is fully within the station before releasing the doors.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Freight wagon clipped the edge of the platform, pulling away coping stones and revealing a void under the platform . Jan 2015. There's an RAIB report available online.

Happened in the dark, not reported because went unnoticed until a passenger train appeared a few hours later.

Thanks. 40 metre section of the (Rochdale bound) platform 2 at Moston station damaged when loose equipment from a passing freight train bashed into it.

Link to subsequent report here...

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/56128eb1e5274a0367000006/R172015_151007_Moston.pdf

 

[baz962]

There is no evidence to support this.

It's an absolute fact. How can it not be safer.

 

[QueensCurve]

There is no evidence to support this.

It can be so in some cases notably aviation where you have a pilot flying and a pilot monitoring.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

It's an absolute fact. How can it not be safer.

Maybe I’ve missed it then. Could you link to research that confirms this.

 

[LowLevel]

It's an absolute fact. How can it not be safer.

It is a hotly debated issue but the RSSB, agree with them or not, do suggest single person dispatch is safer in terms of people not leading each other into errors - for example dispatch staff or guards accidentally telling drivers to depart against red signals and the driver going through with it on auto pilot.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Freight wagon clipped the edge of the platform, pulling away coping stones and revealing a void under the platform . Jan 2015. There's an RAIB report available online.

Happened in the dark, not reported because went unnoticed until a passenger train appeared a few hours later.

I was on the 6:59 from Hebden Bridge to Manchester that day; left a minute late and then canned at Rochdale for a tram into Manchester as both lines were closed (despite it being the down platform that was struck). Somehow it seems I was only 65 minutes late, despite the tram