Avanti Heavily Discounted First Class Tickets

[Banham7]

As I’m sure many are aware, Avanti West Coast a few weeks back released some ‘error fares’ from Stafford to Scotland, where a first class ticket was priced at £7.30 with a railcard and £11.10 without a railcard for dates throughout September.

There have been rumours going around regarding that crews have been issued a brief ‘not to accept’ these tickets. I am just wondering what the actual case would be regarding this given these tickets are very much valid 1st Class Advances with a seat reservation and if anyone knows of the brief given to crews about these tickets issued?

 

[Alex365Dash]

There have been rumours going around regarding that crews have been issued a brief ‘not to accept’ these tickets. I am just wondering what the actual case would be regarding this given these tickets are very much valid 1st Class Advances with a seat reservation and if anyone knows of the brief given to crews about these tickets issued?

If you've been sold a First Class ticket with an itinerary for a service which is scheduled to have First Class and does have First Class, you are entitled to take that service and sit in First Class.
I imagine someone will be able to come along and confirm whether such a brief has actually been issued.

 

[Banham7]

If you've been sold a First Class ticket with an itinerary for a service which is scheduled to have First Class and does have First Class, you are entitled to take that service and sit in First Class.
I imagine someone will be able to come along and confirm whether such a brief has actually been issued.

I am hoping that will be the case. These tickets were sold on all TOC and retailing websites for about a 24 hour period until they noticed there was an error, All of them will have a journey itinerary and seat reservation on AWC services. Hopefully someone can confirm regarding any information given to crews regarding them.

 

[T-Karmel]

I don't see how they could not accept a perfectly valid ticket. They'd need to cancel the ticket, notify customer and refund the money for the ticket to become invalid.
I think the reason they'd need to give is just there - sold as a result of an error. But until they cancel the ticket, they can't just not accept it.

 

[MrJeeves]

I don't see how they could not accept a perfectly valid ticket. They'd need to cancel the ticket, notify customer and refund the money for the ticket to become invalid.
I think the reason they'd need to give is just there - sold as a result of an error. But until they cancel the ticket, they can't just not accept it.

This is only really feasible if you buy it as an e-ticket. TOD and collecting ASAP is the best way to go for any "probably an error" tickets. It's basically impossible to cancel a printed ticket once it's in your hand.

 

[yorkie]

As I’m sure many are aware, Avanti West Coast a few weeks back released some ‘error fares’ from Stafford to Scotland, where a first class ticket was priced at £7.30 with a railcard and £11.10 without a railcard for dates throughout September.

There have been rumours going around regarding that crews have been issued a brief ‘not to accept’ these tickets. I am just wondering what the actual case would be regarding this given these tickets are very much valid 1st Class Advances with a seat reservation and if anyone knows of the brief given to crews about these tickets issued?

They are valid tickets and must be honoured; I will contact Avanti via Twitter and see what their response is and update this thread once I hear back from them.

I am sure this will be a false rumour!

 

[Adam Williams]

Is there any evidence they have not been honoured, rumours aside?

 

[T-Karmel]

This is only really feasible if you buy it as an e-ticket. TOD and collecting ASAP is the best way to go for any "probably an error" tickets. It's basically impossible to cancel a printed ticket once it's in your hand.

Very well, did not think of that. So yeah, certainly how could they not accept it. What will they do, issue new ticket or treat a customer with prosecution?

Why would they even bother with challenging that. This kind of company would just take it on a chin and live with it. How many tickets like this they even sold, they're not gonna suffer it financially.

Even airlines often accept error fares, despite for them being easy to cancel the tickets.

 

[Banham7]

Very well, did not think of that. So yeah, certainly how could they not accept it. What will they do, issue new ticket or treat a customer with prosecution?

Why would they even bother with challenging that. This kind of company would just take it on a chin and live with it. How many tickets like this they even sold, they're not gonna suffer it financially.

Even airlines often accept error fares, despite for them being easy to cancel the tickets.

Unsure how many tickets they will have actually sold, however it was between Stafford-Edinburgh/Haymarket/Glasgow/Motherwell on all dates throughout September with tickets being sold on 10th August and tickets correctly priced from around 11am on 11th August.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Sep 2023 ==

They are valid tickets and must be honoured; I will contact Avanti via Twitter and see what their response is and update this thread once I hear back from them.

I am sure this will be a false rumour!

Most appreciated, hopefully we’ll hear back from them soon with a positive outcome. Worst comes to the worse, I’m suspecting it’ll probably be a downgrade to Standard Class if that’s even possible, however we’ll await their official reply.

 

[Huntergreed]

As I’m sure many are aware, Avanti West Coast a few weeks back released some ‘error fares’ from Stafford to Scotland, where a first class ticket was priced at £7.30 with a railcard and £11.10 without a railcard for dates throughout September.

There have been rumours going around regarding that crews have been issued a brief ‘not to accept’ these tickets. I am just wondering what the actual case would be regarding this given these tickets are very much valid 1st Class Advances with a seat reservation and if anyone knows of the brief given to crews about these tickets issued?

I imagine Avanti would be opening themselves up to a legal case for refusing to follow the NRCOT and their contractual obligations if they did this!

Train operators are not permitted to just choose “not to accept” valid tickets for any reason they like. They are able to cancel tickets and offer a full refund on uncollected TOD transactions as well as E-tickets, but they must offer a full refund for this.

For TOD transactions which have been collected, there’s very little they can do to stop passengers using them. Individual staff members can report the ticket irregularity, but they have no choice but to accept them as valid for the journey being made, as I understand it.

 

[Wolfie]

If you've been sold a First Class ticket with an itinerary for a service which is scheduled to have First Class and does have First Class, you are entitled to take that service and sit in First Class.
I imagine someone will be able to come along and confirm whether such a brief has actually been issued.

Absolutely re your first para.... and could sue the ass off Avanti if that proves not to be the case

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Sep 2023 ==

I imagine Avanti would be opening themselves up to a legal case for refusing to follow the NRCOT and their contractual obligations if they did this!

Train operators are not permitted to just choose “not to accept” valid tickets for any reason they like. They are able to cancel tickets and offer a full refund on uncollected TOD transactions as well as E-tickets, but they must offer a full refund for this.

For TOD transactions which have been collected, there’s very little they can do to stop passengers using them. Individual staff members can report the ticket irregularity, but they have no choice but to accept them as valid for the journey being made, as I understand it.

Absolutely.

 

[Starmill]

They can cancel a contract on some new agreement with the other partiy, in line with the original terms, which don't give them any obvious ways to back out, or in line with a relevant statutory provision such as frustration, which is incredibly unlikely to be relevant.

What you can't do is cancel a contract just because you regret entering into it in the first place, by definition. They'd have to negotiate their way out of it.

 

[Banham7]

I imagine Avanti would be opening themselves up to a legal case for refusing to follow the NRCOT and their contractual obligations if they did this!

Train operators are not permitted to just choose “not to accept” valid tickets for any reason they like. They are able to cancel tickets and offer a full refund on uncollected TOD transactions as well as E-tickets, but they must offer a full refund for this.

For TOD transactions which have been collected, there’s very little they can do to stop passengers using them. Individual staff members can report the ticket irregularity, but they have no choice but to accept them as valid for the journey being made, as I understand it.

I did have a quick read of the NRCOT and I couldn’t find anything that would spay that it would not be valid. I’ve already collected my TOD ticket so it would be very difficult for it to cancel it indeed. I was fully expecting some sort of email from them a day later saying they would have to cancel it but to my surprise that never came.

 

[yorkie]

There is no provision for cancelling it and Avanti won't be the retailer in many cases anyway.

I don't know where this rumour came from, but unless it came directly from someone you trust, I'd dismiss it as made-up.

 

[Hadders]

ISTR someone posting on here that they'd made a journey using one of these tickets without issue.

As it happens I will be using a couple of these tickets this week. I will update the forum if I have any hassle!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

As I’m sure many are aware, Avanti West Coast a few weeks back released some ‘error fares’ from Stafford to Scotland, where a first class ticket was priced at £7.30 with a railcard and £11.10 without a railcard for dates throughout September.

There have been rumours going around regarding that crews have been issued a brief ‘not to accept’ these tickets. I am just wondering what the actual case would be regarding this given these tickets are very much valid 1st Class Advances with a seat reservation and if anyone knows of the brief given to crews about these tickets issued?

I’m travelling on this on Thursday! Certainly not willing to take hassle over using a valid ticket.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Sep 2023 ==

I imagine Avanti would be opening themselves up to a legal case for refusing to follow the NRCOT and their contractual obligations if they did this!

Train operators are not permitted to just choose “not to accept” valid tickets for any reason they like. They are able to cancel tickets and offer a full refund on uncollected TOD transactions as well as E-tickets, but they must offer a full refund for this.

For TOD transactions which have been collected, there’s very little they can do to stop passengers using them. Individual staff members can report the ticket irregularity, but they have no choice but to accept them as valid for the journey being made, as I understand it.

Exactly. If anything, I’m hoping I will be given trouble, as I’ll enjoy seeking vast amounts of compensation in the form of free travel vouchers via a seething email if I am.

 

[185143]

I used these tickets on Tuesday. TM didn't Nat an eyelid in either direction.

 

[ServerHoster]

I also used these tickets on Monday + Tuesday last week, staff were fine with it, I have a few more journeys coming up so I will report how they go.

 

[fandroid]

How is it that apparently a rather large number of people seem to have got hold of tickets that were only on sale from one starting point for one day? Is it that split-ticket sites were instantly picking up the low cost and incorporated these tickets into longer itineraries?

 

[MrJeeves]

They were on sale for far more than just one day, but didn't become more widely known about for a couple of days.

TrainSplit/FastJP would identify the cheap ticket and issue it with various other tickets to provide a rather large discount, even with the rest of the itinerary being standard class.

 

[Haywain]

TrainSplit/FastJP would identify the cheap ticket and issue it with various other tickets to provide a rather large discount, even with the rest of the itinerary being standard class.

Possibly Trainline's splitsave as well.

 

[yorkie]

How is it that apparently a rather large number of people seem to have got hold of tickets that were only on sale from one starting point for one day?

I think it lasted about a week maybe; the irony is that when Avanti put the price up, most retailers updated their system overnight but Avanti's own supplier was delayed for a day, meaning there was a day when you could only get them on the Avanti site!

Is it that split-ticket sites were instantly picking up the low cost and incorporated these tickets into longer itineraries?

I am certainly aware of people who made longer distance journeys who had these fares included; that's a bonus of using the forum's ticketing site in that if intermediate fares are found to be cheaper than the through fare, you'll be offered it. As we do not charge a booking fee, the worst that will happen is it will be the same price as Avanti charge for the full journey. If a saving is made, the vast majority is passed on to the customer.

Otherwise people would only have come across it if specifically searching for a journey for the affected flows.

 

[Furrball]

Did my journey today - no issues ( well was 23 min delayed S/B so could make it even cheaper!!!!)

Seems there is a work to rule with Avanti TM at the moment as in neither direction was the ticket scanned and on the return journey the TM specifically said that that are not scanning tickets at the moment. He just asked to also see the seat reservation in the app

 

[WAB]

Seems there is a work to rule with Avanti TM at the moment as in neither direction was the ticket scanned and on the return journey the TM specifically said that that are not scanning tickets at the moment. He just asked to also see the seat reservation in the app

What's the background to this particular dispute?

 

[ServerHoster]

Did my journey today - no issues ( well was 23 min delayed S/B so could make it even cheaper!!!!)

Seems there is a work to rule with Avanti TM at the moment as in neither direction was the ticket scanned and on the return journey the TM specifically said that that are not scanning tickets at the moment. He just asked to also see the seat reservation in the app

Great to hear, on my last journey I had a heart attack for a few seconds because the TM got out his phone to scan my ticket - he must have been a manager or something. But he didn't say anything and continued checking other tickets. (I'm hoping it's not one of those things where they get your details from scanning your ticket).

What's the background to this particular dispute?

I saw somewhere on this forum ages ago that the reason why Avanti TMs are not scanning tickets is because they are not paid extra for scanning tickets, whereas Northern guards are paid 2p per scan (that is why they are so eager to scan, one even scanned my bus ticket once), so Avanti TMs want to be paid to scan too.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Great to hear, on my last journey I had a heart attack for a few seconds because the TM got out his phone to scan my ticket - he must have been a manager or something. But he didn't say anything and continued checking other tickets. (I'm hoping it's not one of those things where they get your details from scanning your ticket).


I saw somewhere on this forum ages ago that the reason why Avanti TMs are not scanning tickets is because they are not paid extra for scanning tickets, whereas Northern guards are paid 2p per scan (that is why they are so eager to scan, one even scanned my bus ticket once), so Avanti TMs want to be paid to scan too.

Did/do Avanti TM get commission on sales? I thought part of the argument was that guards were losing out on commission with more online purchases.
Incidentally, are paid for every scan i.e. are they paid for scanning railcards too? And if it is a Two Together should they scan it twice-once for each ticket?

 

[skyhigh]

Incidentally, are paid for every scan i.e. are they paid for scanning railcards too? And if it is a Two Together should they scan it twice-once for each ticket?

Northern guards can't scan Railcards so obviously aren't paid for doing so.

 

[MrJeeves]

Northern guards can't scan Railcards so obviously aren't paid for doing so.

How come?

 

[skyhigh]

How come?

To be fair I should have said "never used to be able to scan Railcards" as it might have changed since I last knew.

If you scanned the code nothing happened, it wasn't part of the spec to read them apparently.

 

[OscarH]

To be fair I should have said "never used to be able to scan Railcards" as it might have changed since I last knew.

If you scanned the code nothing happened, it wasn't part of the spec to read them apparently.

Which app do Northern guards use, do you know?