Nottingham...in relative isolation

[Mugby]

Back in steam days we discovered that Barton operated a Corby - Glasgow coach on Friday nights for £2. The opportunity to bash the lowlands sheds over the weekend before taking up a Freedom of Scotland on the Monday appealed, so we booked. Arriving at Corby bus station in plenty of time we found the queue already snaked out of the bus station and along the road outside - there were certainly more than 6 coaches on the departure as ones were departing as they loaded.

Presumably someone will say that it was not cost-effective for B.R. to run 'dated' services one day a week but Barton, at that time privately owned, thought it worthwhile...

Yes, BR certainly did miss an opportunity there. I have it in one of my books about Barton (can't remember which one) that it wasn't unknown for them to run twenty or more duplicates on the Corby - Glasgow service on Friday nights in peak season.

I can't imagine an operator (least of all a single private company) having the resources to do such a thing now.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Yes, BR certainly did miss an opportunity there. I have it in one of my books about Barton (can't remember which one) that it wasn't unknown for them to run twenty or more duplicates on the Corby - Glasgow service on Friday nights in peak season.

I can't imagine an operator (least of all a single private company) having the resources to do such a thing now.

There may have been that sort of number on the occasion I travelled, I remember waking from dozing when we pulled into Barnsdale Bar services and it seemed to so congested with other Barton coaches that we had trouble getting in

I formed an opinion of how Barton resourced it. Because of the rural nature of East Northamptonshire and South East Leicestershire around Corby and Melton there was reliance (pun!) on school buses because of the thin stage services, and Barton presumably operated most of these. The vehicles (and drivers) involved had no work from Friday afternoon to Monday morning and provided a low cost solution. Drivers' hours regs were a bit less stringent then, too.

The coaches used when I travelled were all very early A.E.C. Reliance D.P.s and probably the same ones that reclined at the back of the U.C. garage in Corby between school work. The only journeys seemed to be Friday night Northbound and Sunday night Southbound so I assume that the coaches were parked in Glasgow over the weekend, but maybe the drivers all came back for the weekend on one coach. Or they might have been the longest 'spreadover' turns in the industry

 

[70014IronDuke]

Nottingham's misfortune is that it is parallel to Derby on the route from London to Sheffield etc, and Derby is the speedier route for Sheffield trains. Furthermore the old route there via Melton Mowbray involved missing out Leicester, which probably provides more London passengers than any other on the line.

The usual UK paranoia about reversing trains en route also applies.

Yes, all true, but only part of the story. As I see it the real trigger for closure of the Melton route was simple economics post WCML electrification.

Prior to this, most St Pancras - Sheffield (- Leeds - Glasgow/Edinburgh) trains had used the back road, though a few went Leicester-Trent.

But Leicester & Derby relied upon the fast St Pancras - Manchester Cen expresses for their service to London.

With WCML electrification, of course, the raison d'etre for these trains disappeared. But (as you point out) Leicester is an important traffic generator, and you couldn't ignore Derby either. So the Sheffields simply moved 15 miles west to the Leicester route and BR (or at least LMR) managed to save massive operating and investment costs by closing Melton - Nottingham altogether, and reducing maintenance costs south of Melton.

A great shame, of course - it was a nice route, and I seem to remember seeing some speeds in the 90s with Jubilees in the dip at Edwalton (I think it was) - even today, if Sheffield - Norwich trains ran that way, I doubt it would really pay its way.

 

[80073]

This thread brings back happy memories of my time as a student at Nottingham in the very early 1970s. When I went home for my first Christmas, I did not realise that trains for St Pancras reversed and so I walked to what I thought was the front of the train, only to find that it had become the back! It seemed like a long walk with heavy cases at St Pancras.

I can remember the hole that had been Victoria station and the entrance to Arkwright Street station Another memory is being amazed to catch a train that had come from Glasgow.

Given that Norwich Victoria was also closed, I am tempted to ask if Dr Beeching had something against Queen Victoria?

 

[70014IronDuke]

This thread brings back happy memories of my time as a student at Nottingham in the very early 1970s. When I went home for my first Christmas, I did not realise that trains for St Pancras reversed and so I walked to what I thought was the front of the train, only to find that it had become the back! It seemed like a long walk with heavy cases at St Pancras.

I can remember the hole that had been Victoria station and the entrance to Arkwright Street station Another memory is being amazed to catch a train that had come from Glasgow.

Given that Norwich Victoria was also closed, I am tempted to ask if Dr Beeching had something against Queen Victoria?

I'm sure you must be on to something here - Sheffield Victoria too.

And Northwich Victoria

It was probably caused by him having to use Victoria every day for work

 

[Western Sunset]

And Manchester Victoria is a shadow of its former self, too.

Back to Nottm. I'm a little unclear about 70014's comment: "Prior to this, most St Pancras - Sheffield (- Leeds - Glasgow/Edinburgh) trains had used the back road, though a few went Leicester-Trent."

I've heard of the "Old Road" via Barrow Hill, and the "Back Line" of the old GN through Colwick/Mapperley, but not a "Back Road".

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm sure you must be on to something here - Sheffield Victoria too.
And Northwich Victoria
It was probably caused by him having to use Victoria every day for work

And Swansea Victoria...

There's still Southend and Manchester Vics.
And (London) Victoria.

 

[Taunton]

Broadly, the "Victorias", by the time it was decided to celebrate the current Monarch in this way, were the second or third main station established in a city. Which history tells us is commonly the less-convenient, less-connected one than the first arrivals had managed.

 

[Western Sunset]

Broadly, the "Victorias", by the time it was decided to celebrate the current Monarch in this way, were the second or third main station established in a city. Which history tells us is commonly the less-convenient, less-connected one than the first arrivals had managed.

I agree, to a certain extent, but didn't Sheff Vic predate the Midland one, and Nottm Vic was very centrally placed compared to Nottm Mid.

 

[70014IronDuke]

And Manchester Victoria is a shadow of its former self, too.

Back to Nottm. I'm a little unclear about 70014's comment: "Prior to this, most St Pancras - Sheffield (- Leeds - Glasgow/Edinburgh) trains had used the back road, though a few went Leicester-Trent."

I've heard of the "Old Road" via Barrow Hill, and the "Back Line" of the old GN through Colwick/Mapperley, but not a "Back Road".

The Corby - Melton route was known (at least in some circles) as the 'back road' - as opposed to the Leicester route - though I've never heard that called 'the front road' !

 

[Western Sunset]

Cheers, thanks.

 

[xotGD]

Nottingham lacks direct services in a north easterly direction. To York, Newcastle and Edinburgh.

An opportunity for an Open Access cowboy operator?

 

[Hairy Bear]

The Corby - Melton route was known (at least in some circles) as the 'back road' - as opposed to the Leicester route - though I've never heard that called 'the front road' !

Nah....."round the alp's" is the original.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Nah....."round the alp's" is the original.

Nah….”the rabbit warren” (because of the number of tunnels).

 

[Harvester]

Interestingly St Pancras to Nottingham, via Corby-Melton-Edwalton, was only 123.5 miles, the shortest route between London and Nottingham!

 

[Merle Haggard]

Interestingly St Pancras to Nottingham, via Corby-Melton-Edwalton, was only 123.5 miles, the shortest route between London and Nottingham!

That's why the Midland built it! Also much easier grades - look at the different levels between Kettering and Glendon J (site of) of the two routes and remember Desboro' summit is (I think) as steep a climb as Sharnbrook F/L.

 

[edwin_m]

Interestingly St Pancras to Nottingham, via Corby-Melton-Edwalton, was only 123.5 miles, the shortest route between London and Nottingham!

To this day the mileposts in Nottingham station and as far west as Mansfield junction run in the "wrong" direction for this reason.

 

[Mugby]

I believe that when St. Pancras was under threat of closure, the intention was to sever the MML as a through route at a point north of Bedford to the outskirts of Leicester, leaving a gap of about 50 miles. I imagine the residual commuter traffic between Bedford, Luton and London would have been diverted into Moorgate but apparently serious consideration was given to making Derby to London passengers change at Tamworth, Leicester to London passengers change at Nuneaton and Nottingham to London passengers change at Grantham.

As the old saying goes; 'Desperate situations require desperate remedies' but thankfully sense prevailed and the proposal came to be seen as a step too far!

 

[Magdalia]

I believe that when St. Pancras was under threat of closure, the intention was to sever the MML as a through route at a point north of Bedford to the outskirts of Leicester, leaving a gap of about 50 miles. I imagine the residual commuter traffic between Bedford, Luton and London would have been diverted into Moorgate but apparently serious consideration was given to making Derby to London passengers change at Tamworth, Leicester to London passengers change at Nuneaton and Nottingham to London passengers change at Grantham.

My recollection is that the proposal included retention of London through trains from/to Sheffield and Nottingham using Kings Cross and through trains from/to Derby and Leicester using the Market Harborough-Northampton line to access Euston.

But I don't recall what they proposed to do with the Midland Main Line freight. Maybe that was going to be diverted onto the WCML too.

Nottingham lacks direct services in a north easterly direction. To York, Newcastle and Edinburgh.

In steam days this was done by changing at Grantham. Most ECML expresses stopped at Grantham to change locomotives. After steam finished Grantham lost out to Peterborough for ECML express stops.

 

[Merle Haggard]

But I don't recall what they proposed to do with the Midland Main Line freight. Maybe that was going to be diverted onto the WCML too.

Most midland line freight - primarily coal traffic from Toton - had been running via Mkt Harboro' - Northampton since electrification (loco change at Northampton No 4). Cricklewood Brent yard became moribund. There were still Wellingboro' - Actons for coal to W.R. locations, though.

About 1971 coal for the S.R. (S.W) was diverted back to Cricklewood Brent.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Nah....."round the alp's" is the original.

I strongly suspect that is a relatively modern term - because drivers today mainly use it for Sunday diversions - meaning you have to reverse in Leicester and go 'round the Alps' to get to Kettering (not that I've ever heard the term at all previously).

"Back Road" was used (by some, at least) when the entire route via Edwalton was open, though, as far as I now, it was used for Sunday diversions in the early 60s too (and probably back to when it opened).

 

[Hairy Bear]

When I started in the early 80's, that was the term used by existing ex steam drivers, so I guess It depends on your definition of modern.
Never hear it said now because the modern phrase is "via Manton".

 

[WesternLancer]

When I started in the early 80's, that was the term used by existing ex steam drivers,

Apols to ask but which term do you mean of those being listed - alps/back road/etc ?

 

[Hairy Bear]

Apols to ask but which term do you mean of those being listed - alps/back road/etc ?

Round the Alps, Never heard any other term when required to run that way.
Always a challenge with a 56 and 42 PGA's, 2250 tons all up........... Happy day's.

 

[WesternLancer]

Round the Alps, Never heard any other term when required to run that way.
Always a challenge with a 56 and 42 PGA's, 2250 tons all up........... Happy day's.

Thanks - that makes sense too. And one can assume those former steam guys you spoke to then would themselves have used terms from their 'elders' when learning the route so good chance it stretches some way back indeed.

 

[Falcon1200]

Nottm Vic was very centrally placed compared to Nottm Mid.

True, but given the railway geography of the area, if there was only to be one main line station in Nottingham it had to be Midland.

 

[RT4038]

I believe that when St. Pancras was under threat of closure, the intention was to sever the MML as a through route at a point north of Bedford to the outskirts of Leicester, leaving a gap of about 50 miles. I imagine the residual commuter traffic between Bedford, Luton and London would have been diverted into Moorgate but apparently serious consideration was given to making Derby to London passengers change at Tamworth, Leicester to London passengers change at Nuneaton and Nottingham to London passengers change at Grantham.

As the old saying goes; 'Desperate situations require desperate remedies' but thankfully sense prevailed and the proposal came to be seen as a step too far!

I don't think that is quite right. St. Pancras Station, and the Kettering-Mkt Harborough sections would have been closed completely. Bedford-Kettering would have been served by extending the Moorgate-Bedford suburban service. The line through Corby would have been retained (Corby Steel works was still open then), so any other MML freight would have gone that way.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I don't think that is quite right. St. Pancras Station, and the Kettering-Mkt Harborough sections would have been closed completely. Bedford-Kettering would have been served by extending the Moorgate-Bedford suburban service. The line through Corby would have been retained (Corby Steel works was still open then), so any other MML freight would have gone that way.

Sounds like a huge amount of effort to close not much more than eight miles between Glendon Junction and Market Harborough. The wayside stations like Desborough went from 1/1/68 anyway.

 

[RT4038]

Sounds like a huge amount of effort to close not much more than eight miles between Glendon Junction and Market Harborough. The wayside stations like Desborough went from 1/1/68 anyway.

That and the closure of St Pancras station, which would have been a valuable redevelopment site. Whether four tracks would have survived north of Luton [bearing in mind passenger traffic levels at that time before the electrification commuter explosion] would have survived is probably doubtful, giving another 50 miles or so of double track railway to not maintain and to sell for scrap)

I guess that the 'huge amount of effort to close not much' , the issues with the Northampton-Market Harborough line (level crossings over main roads, and tunnel clearances), plus the campaign by Sir John Betjeman over St Pancras, probably clinched the issue.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Sounds like a huge amount of effort to close not much more than eight miles between Glendon Junction and Market Harborough. The wayside stations like Desborough went from 1/1/68 anyway.

Another factor (apart from escaping from St Pancras) was possibly to increase the utilisation of the (200!) A.C. electric locos; this did seem to be part of the reason for the freight diversion, which had already happened. When traffic picked up on Western side some reverted to routing via Midland as mentioned above. And Roade - Euston had plenty of spare paths then. It was possibly thought that the increase in costs on the Western line of the diverted services would be marginal, against major savings on the Midland - presumably reduced to double track all the way South of Kettering, for instance.

But that's just a guess; what is certainty is that, having a brake-van pass from Kettering about 1968, the Kettering Area Operating Assistant (who accompanied us) thought the proposal was very likely to happen. It's fair to say that he Midland line did have an air of being in terminal decline then; steam heated 90 mph SKs on expresses (the service pattern then was St.Pancras - Leicester all stations, and St. Pancras - Derby and beyond first stop Leicester, broadly). The facilities at its stations were much the same as when the Midland railway owned them. Once-important ironstone traffic disappeared about the same time with almost all the Northamptonshire pits closing so only transit freight traffic.