More 150s for Northern?

[Bastiaan]

Based on the DfT document and the numbers posted by Northernrailer, I made up this balance. Please correct me I'm wrong.

(To be) transferred to FGW: 18x 150/1
(To be) transferred to NOR: 12x 150/1, 16x 150/2 (in total 28 vehicles)
Unallocated, or possibly staying with LM: 6x 150/0 protypes, 4x 150/1 + 2x 150/2 making two hybrid sets, and 14x 150/1 making 7 two-car sets.

 

[northernrailer]

Right here goes:

Units to Transfer from London Midland:

10 x 2car class 150/1 transferring to FGW (150101, 150102, 150104, 150106, 150108, 150122, 150124, 150125, 150126 & 150132).

8 x 2car class 150/2 transferring to Northern Rail (150202, 150204, 150206, 150210, 150214, 150216, 150220 & 150226).

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Units Left over after transfer of the above (units below currently not allocated to a TOC in reshuffle, but may stay with LM):

2 x 3car prototype units (150001 & 150002).

2 x 3car hybrid units (150016 & 150017).

12 x 2car class 150/1 reformed from 150/0: (150103, 150105, 150107, 150109, 150110, 150111, 150112, 150113, 150114, 150115, 150118 & 150119).

 

[sprinterguy]

Interesting, I find it odd though that FGW will be getting the 150/1s and Northern the 150/2s, when before the arrival of the ex-Silverlink 150s FGW was dominated by the corridor fitted 150/2s. Seeing as Northern have a sizeable fleet of 150/1s, I would rather that the largest number of corridor or non corridor fitted 150s were each concentrated with a single operator, i.e. FGW having more 150/2s (supplemented by a couple of 150/1s to make up the numbers as LM have insufficient 150/2s available to cover all the units going to FGW) and Northern having more 150/1s. In these moves it looks like both FGW and Northern will end up with roughly equally sized fleets of 150/1s and 150/2s.

Any of the additional 150s mooted as moving to Northern (bringing the total up to 14 units?) will have to come from the remaining LM 150/1 allocation anyway.

 

[lm321412]

Some of the /0s centre cabs are absolutely trashed with all sorts inside them, will definately take some work to get them back in use no doubt.

 

[YorkshireBear]

so basically fgw are gaining nothing?
Have northern got a net increase?

 

[WillPS]

FGW have already benefited from the ex-Silverlink/LOROL 150s. This further cascade will allow the sub-leasing of Northern 142s and ATW 150s to cease. The 150s are also a significant upgrade on the 142s they've loaned from Northern.

 

[northernrailer]

Some of the /0s centre cabs are absolutely trashed with all sorts inside them, will definately take some work to get them back in use no doubt.

150202 & 150210 have been centre cars on and off over the years so they have seem to be ok from a running and driving point of view.

150204, 150206, 150220 & 150226 may need some attention due to them been mainly centre cars since 1992 when they formed that way, and over the years i have seen parts robbed of the driving desk (speedos and controller handles, PA Handsets and even destination blinds),i remember seeing on (57226) from 150010 the speedo was removed and it said "speedo borrowed and to be refitted on receiving new stock at depot". The cabs look to have been whitewashed all over too.

 

[northwichcat]

so basically fgw are gaining nothing?

14x15m carriages being replaced by 20x20m carriages. That's 210m being replaced by 400m so almost double.

Also note that FGW have already gained. The subleased units were to cover refurbishment and not originally intended as a permanent transfer, so all their 150/1s will effectively be a net gain as they've only returned some of the subleased units.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Interesting, I find it odd though that FGW will be getting the 150/1s and Northern the 150/2s, when before the arrival of the ex-Silverlink 150s FGW was dominated by the corridor fitted 150/2s.

Most of the 150s going to Northern are replacing 156s and 180s. This means having corridor connectors will allow existing 4-5 carriage services to continue to operate effectively as one through unit. Northern gaining 150/1s will mean additional revenue problems to what already exists.

 

[sprinterguy]

Most of the 150s going to Northern are replacing 156s and 180s. This means having corridor connectors will allow existing 4-5 carriage services to continue to operate effectively as one through unit. Northern gaining 150/1s will mean additional revenue problems to what already exists.

Good point, I hadn’t considered the nature of the stock moving away from Northern which the 150s are stepping in to replace.

 

[northwichcat]

Right here goes:

8 x 2car class 150/2 transferring to Northern Rail (150202, 150204, 150206, 150210, 150214, 150216, 150220 & 150226).

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Units Left over after transfer of the above (units below currently not allocated to a TOC in reshuffle, but may stay with LM):

2 x 3car prototype units (150001 & 150002).

2 x 3car hybrid units (150016 & 150017).

12 x 2car class 150/1 reformed from 150/0: (150103, 150105, 150107, 150109, 150110, 150111, 150112, 150113, 150114, 150115, 150118 & 150119).

In all 14x150s (28 vehicles) have been allocated to Northern now as per the DfT freedom of information release in January.

 

[Nym]

So, why couldn't northern keep some of them as 3 car units? sounds ideal for some of the lines out of Manchester, since the're proberbly going to be based at Newton Heath with the rest of them?

 

[northwichcat]

So, why couldn't northern keep some of them as 3 car units? sounds ideal for some of the lines out of Manchester, since the're proberbly going to be based at Newton Heath with the rest of them?

3 car 150s would be ideal for Victoria-Huddersfield but you're talking about the operator who moved the FNW 153s and 158s to Leeds and the ATN 150s to Manchester just for 'consistency.' While they got the 158s centre cars that was down to DfT allocating them due to overcrowding on Blackpool services so Northern could either take them or leave them.

 

[swt_passenger]

In all 14x150s (28 vehicles) have been allocated to Northern now as per the DfT freedom of information release in January.

I too am completely confused by northernrailer's post. My reason for starting this thread was to show that DfT had allocated 28 vehicles, (14 units) to Northern. Unless he's only describing the net additional units - but why would they be specified by number?

 

[northwichcat]

I too am completely confused by northernrailer's post. My reason for starting this thread was to show that DfT had allocated 28 vehicles, (14 units) to Northern. Unless he's only describing the net additional units - but why would they be specified by number?

I'm not confused by it. He's used figures from Lord Adonis' original announcement that has since been revised. The original announcement only included 8 extra 150s for Northern (16 carriages) and saw 4 156s (8 carriages) leaving Northern for EMT. The assumption was that the 142s at FGW would replace the 180s at Northern. Northern and GMPTE complained about this not really be a net gain and then finished up getting allocated an additional 6x150s (12 carriages) as 180 replacement.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm not confused by it. He's used figures from Lord Adonis' original announcement that has since been revised.

Clearly he has repeated old info - and it is that that I find odd. What's the point of posting Adonis's plan, when the whole plan has changed?

 

[tbtc]

So, why couldn't northern keep some of them as 3 car units? sounds ideal for some of the lines out of Manchester, since the're proberbly going to be based at Newton Heath with the rest of them?

I think any cascaded stock to Northern ought to be used for capacity enhancement on existing services rather than trying to find additional paths for "new" services (especially considering the bottlenecks), so units with corridor connectors would be very welcome (beefing up services to three/four coaches).

My concern is that the additional 150s seem to be concentrated on the Lancashire side of the Pennines. Maybe we'll get some over this side in a few years once the Bolton line gets electrification?

 

[northwichcat]

My concern is that the additional 150s seem to be concentrated on the Lancashire side of the Pennines. Maybe we'll get some over this side in a few years once the Bolton line gets electrification?

A previous announcement stated that the areas to benefit would be the Liverpool, Manchester and Sheffield areas. Also if you look at some other posts on here more 150s have been seen than usual in South Yorkshire recently, so possibly more Sheffield crews are being trained on 150s.

 

[tbtc]

A previous announcement stated that the areas to benefit would be the Liverpool, Manchester and Sheffield areas. Also if you look at some other posts on here more 150s have been seen than usual in South Yorkshire recently, so possibly more Sheffield crews are being trained on 150s.

We have slowly been getting more 150s, true. I'd taken the announcement to refer to Sheffield only in terms of the Hope Valley service from Manchester (since many other Sheffield local routes serve Leeds, and there was no mention of it)

 

[YorkshireBear]

We have slowly been getting more 150s, true. I'd taken the announcement to refer to Sheffield only in terms of the Hope Valley service from Manchester (since many other Sheffield local routes serve Leeds, and there was no mention of it)

i did presume the same. I'm not entirely sure the doncaster line needs extra capacity? a 153 seems to cope most of the day.

I have never seen a service from sheffield to manchester local that needs more than 2 but i have onl experienced the sheffield end if anyone wants to correct me?

I'd hope yorkshire would benefit from lancashire electrification, they cant have everything thats just mean

 

[Nym]

Well, the thing I'm worrying about personally is that when we get the electric trains for the lancs triangle, they'll retire pacers like for like, TBH, I'd rather be on a 6 or 8 car pacer than 3 or 4 car 150...

 

[Anvil1984]

All East side crews (except Newcastle / Darlo and Boro) are trained on 150s as they are likely to work them at one point. York, Harrogate and Leeds are familliar with them on the York line for example. Hull don't see them that much except for services during summer season but will have to get used to them, there is booked work at Sheffield for a small amount of Sheffield to Leeds work (not much but enough). Huddersfield for the Grand Tour which interworks with the Man Vic Calderdale line services, I think I'll stop there but its not due to staff training thats theres not many. More of a company decision to base them all at Newton Heath depot

 

[northernrailer]

Clearly he has repeated old info - and it is that that I find odd. What's the point of posting Adonis's plan, when the whole plan has changed?

For your information at present my info is correct a friend of mine is a manager at Tyseley depot in Birmingham where these units are allocated, he has the list of units to transfer to Northern and it is correct, also the reason for posting the unit numbers is to keep people in the loop about what units are destined for there. LM cant just say 8 class 150s to go to Northern - units have to be specified.

 

[swt_passenger]

For your information at present my info is correct a friend of mine is a manager at Tyseley depot in Birmingham where these units are allocated, he has the list of units to transfer to Northern and it is correct, also the reason for posting the unit numbers is to keep people in the loop about what units are destined for there. LM cant just say 8 class 150s to go to Northern - units have to be specified.

Yes, OK, but the question is then why aren't 14 units going to Northern?

That's what isn't being explained. Or is your friend implying that the DfT's announcement was wrong, or it has been superseded, or is he just listing the first eight to go?

 

[Old Hill Bank]

For your information at present my info is correct a friend of mine is a manager at Tyseley depot in Birmingham where these units are allocated, he has the list of units to transfer to Northern and it is correct, also the reason for posting the unit numbers is to keep people in the loop about what units are destined for there. LM cant just say 8 class 150s to go to Northern - units have to be specified.

Thanks for the info, it seems certain that there will be more news on further DaFT/TOC deals on unit leasing in the near future.

 

[northwichcat]

a friend of mine is a manager at Tyseley depot in Birmingham where these units are allocated, he has the list of units to transfer to Northern and it is correct, also the reason for posting the unit numbers is to keep people in the loop about what units are destined for there. LM cant just say 8 class 150s to go to Northern - units have to be specified.

Was that the same manager at Tyseley who started rumours about London Midland keeping the 150/0s, the other 2 mis-matched 3 car 150s and 6 others and releasing the 10x153s instead when DfT actually said the unallocated 150s are going to the operator showing the greatest need?

And why the delay in deciding which other 6 150s are going to Northern? The information was released to the public in January, the operators know about it many months before.

 

[northernrailer]

No it wasnt the same Manager who started the other rumours, i will only share things on a forum if i believe they are correct and not just someone making things up, as for the other units to go to Northern i dont know - i only know what i have posted but will now ask the question.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Was that the same manager at Tyseley who started rumours about London Midland keeping the 150/0s, the other 2 mis-matched 3 car 150s and 6 others and releasing the 10x153s instead when DfT actually said the unallocated 150s are going to the operator showing the greatest need?

And why the delay in deciding which other 6 150s are going to Northern? The information was released to the public in January, the operators know about it many months before.

It seems that the cascade will have to be done in stages as is often the case, the reason for the delay is called 172's.

I think it's unfair to shoot the messenger!!!

 

[WillPS]

I'd hope and expect London Midland would release 150s slightly ahead of 172s entering service, given their (comparably) massive amount of slack and how badly these units are needed at Northern, FGW (and EMT & ATW indirectly).

 

[northwichcat]

I think it's unfair to shoot the messenger!!!

There was someone (who may not have been northernrailer) who posted on more than forum a few months back that it's been confirmed that LM are keeping 10x150s and will instead cascade the 153s, they also gave unit numbers for the units to stay at LM and said the information had come from their friend at Tyseley, which I why I was doubting northernrailer.

Thinking about it I'm pretty sure they specified 6 x 2 car 150/2s that LM would be keeping, whereas northernrailer has said the 150/2s will go to Northern, so it probably was someone different who posted it but I think there has been some misleading information coming out of Tyseley, which could well be a completely different source to northernrailer's manager friend.

 

[trains2064]

LM will not be introducing the 172's till june/july now so this will knock the 150 cascade a little.