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A potential pay per mile fee to replace road tax.

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DustyBin

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This idea that EVs are that much heavier that they should bear a greater proportion of tax than lighter vehicles is a complete red herring. Damage to road surfaces is generally due to two mechanisms, friction and deformation.
Friction is a function of driving style, scrub of tyres and tyre compounds. Car tyres are generally softer than the road surfaces and wear only becomes an issue in locations where heavier braking is frequent. Heavy goods vehicles have harder compound tyres designed to (just) meet the minimum braking requirements, as a trade off for longer life and reduced costs. These tyres do however stress the road surface on heavy braking.
HGVs however because of their weight, compress the road surface as they move over it. This ultimately causes breakdown of the top layers and eventually that breaking up cause fissures that become potholes as the structure of the paving becomes more and more compromised. This is a major maintenance issue for roads that carry large numbers of heavy vehicles. Although most sizes of cars have been getting heavier over the last two or three decades to meet ever stringent safety directives, the additional 250-500Kg is irrelevant to overall road maintenance costs.
So, just like the lie that car parks will be collapsing soon under the weight of EVs, it is a myth, (maybe put about by EV detractors) that EVs will be a cause of increased road maintenance costs.

Although it would be fair to say we have our disagreements when it comes to EVs, the ULEZ etc. I think this is all fair enough. Cars have got bigger and heavier generally, and the extra weight of EVs is pretty much in line with “natural” evolution; it’s not going to have catastrophic consequences suddenly. Red herring arguments don’t help anyone’s cause so I’m happy to agree on this occasion!
 
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I don't see how the idea of vehicle excise duty (or whatever it's called this week) being based on mileage would be insurmountable as some suggest upthread. All cars record their mileage, and sure there are ways of "fiddling" that but it's fairly rare (and is an offence in itself or could be made one). The only difference is that the tax would have to work retrospectively, so you'd pay based on the mileage you did in the previous year.

Then again I remember the good old days where your car tax was a flat rate which you paid every six or twelve months for permission to use the roads. You even got a handy little certificate to display in your windscreen to show that you'd paid. To this day I still think seeing cars without tax discs is like seeing a train without a yellow warning panel- they just look a bit off, as if something is missing! ;)
 

jon0844

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It's crazy to try and charge people AFTER the fact. Cars would get scrapped, sold on, someone would claim it to have been stolen and all the mileage not being theirs etc. And, yes, you'd absolutely have more people figuring out how to hack the cars to report a lower mileage - possibly easier to do today than when it was mechanical.

The Government will need to come up with a robust method of getting an income, and if you charge for people to enter certain areas (and must either pay on the day, or set up an automatic payment system) then that seems pretty simple. Sure, you might still get some claiming not to have been there etc, but that's easier to manage than some sort of tax-return style setup.
 

Ediswan

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New Zealand operates a system of Road User Charges where you pay in advance, in 1000 km units. (You can buy multiple units in one transaction.)

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/vehicles/road-user-charges/ruc-licences/
Distance licences are bought in units of 1000km (621 miles). How much a unit costs depends on your RUC vehicle type and RUC weight.

When you buy RUC you pre-pay for the distance you're going to travel. You must buy a new licence before you’ve driven all the distance covered by your current licence.
 

Peter Sarf

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With all those cameras installed for ULEZ it makes sense to charge motorists on a day to day basis for distance based road use. An online way for motorists to check and pay plus an admin fee letter if payment is left too late NOT a fine until some point after that letter is ignored.

This really would need to work on a national basis but then most cities are getting ANPR cameras for one purpose for another (usually a ULEZ). Plenty of ANPR on motorways already. It does not have to be perfectly accurate. It does not matter if country lanes are not monitored. So a first and last sighting by ANPR could then be used to arrive at an itinery with any sightings in between contributing to the exact route (residential area, main road or motorway). I cannot see all the money spent on cameras not being used for road pricing. I don't mind road pricing - provided they drop the fuel tax. I don't do many miles so I would love to drop the road tax.
 

The Ham

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New Zealand operates a system of Road User Charges where you pay in advance, in 1000 km units. (You can buy multiple units in one transaction.)

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/vehicles/road-user-charges/ruc-licences/

At about £38 for a car for each 1,000km that would mean someone doing just over 8,000 miles (13,000 km) in a year would have a "tax" bill of about £500 (it's roughly 6p per mile).

8,000 miles a year is about 25 miles a day for commuting (5 days) up to 45 miles a day (3 days). I've given some allowances for other travel, so if that's not used (say it's a second car which is only used for work travel) then the distances per day could be a little higher.
 

AM9

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It's crazy to try and charge people AFTER the fact. Cars would get scrapped, sold on, someone would claim it to have been stolen and all the mileage not being theirs etc. And, yes, you'd absolutely have more people figuring out how to hack the cars to report a lower mileage - possibly easier to do today than when it was mechanical.

The Government will need to come up with a robust method of getting an income, and if you charge for people to enter certain areas (and must either pay on the day, or set up an automatic payment system) then that seems pretty simple. Sure, you might still get some claiming not to have been there etc, but that's easier to manage than some sort of tax-return style setup.
This is the most practical way to implement a road charge. There is plenty of legal precedent in the UK already (with their introduction dates):
the central London congestion charge (2003)​
the London ULEZ (both original and extension) (2019 & 2023 respectively)​
the Birmingham CAZ (2021)​
the Oxford ZEZ (2022)​
the Glasgow LEZ (2023)​
Then there are several districts planning to address their own pollution issues in the near future, including Manchester, Aberdeen, Dundee, Edinburgh, Newcastle, Sheffield, plus a few that currently target certain vehicles e.g. Buses and Taxis, but are likely to encompass private vehicles along the lines of the list above.

So the increasing number of administrations needing to address IC vehicle pollution in their areas, there will soon be a network of residential and built-up areas that are running successful schemes to control the gross volume of emissions, and it may even develop into whole metropolitan areas, e.g. West Midlands, West Yorkshire and Tyneside, which after the initial protests will mena that whole driving populations will be compliant (less a few who think that they will beat the system)! So a polluter pays framework is rapidly growing to overlay a basic road use tax which can cover all vehicles in sensitive areas at an appropriate price for the vehicle.

For a reference on the above info, see: https://www.carwow.co.uk/blog/uk-low-emissions-zones#gref

There is also a comparison of charges for entering zones in non-compliant vehicles, and at £12.50, given the enourmous size of the London ULEZ, it isn't overpriced at all.
 

tomuk

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So the increasing number of administrations needing to address IC vehicle pollution in their areas, there will soon be a network of residential and built-up areas that are running successful schemes to control the gross volume of emissions, a
How are they successfully controlling the gross volume of emissions if 90% vehicles already comply with the requirements and vehicles are continuing to get cleaner whether there is a LEZ or not anyway?
 

A0

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New Zealand operates a system of Road User Charges where you pay in advance, in 1000 km units. (You can buy multiple units in one transaction.)

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/vehicles/road-user-charges/ruc-licences/

Not really comparable with what is being looked at here though - from the website


Anyone using New Zealand’s roads contributes towards their upkeep. Most road users pay levies when they buy fuel. Others, such as drivers of light diesel vehicles and heavy vehicles like trucks, pay through road user charges (RUC).

So 2 big differences - one it's levied against certain vehicle types, two it's revenue is used for the upkeep of roads. Whereas in this country the total income from motoring taxes dwarfs the *whole* transport budget. If road pricing *solely* was spent on road improvements, maintenance and upkeep, motorists might accept it, but it won't be, so many will oppose it for that reason.
 

HSTEd

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That would have drivers in rural areas complaining because they drive more miles. Any charging system would need to discriminate between driving on a quiet road where there is no alternative transport and driving on a heavily congested road through a residential area, past schools etc., and where there are plenty of public transport alternatives.
Fuel Duty makes no such distinction.

The "report mileage at MOT" solution also does not require any additional, expensive, infrastructure with the associated political controversy.
 

E27007

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The Europa satellite navigation system developed for the EU reports details of position of a vehicle, so there is the basic tool for a pay-per-mile/time of day system.
Being objective, gas / electricity / water is metered and paid for on the basis of consumption, if there any compelling reason why road usage should not be metered and paid for on the same basis?
 

edwin_m

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Whereas in this country the total income from motoring taxes dwarfs the *whole* transport budget.
Does it pay for the costs of policing, or the health costs of accidents, pollution and inactivity? All of these are attributable to excessive use of cars.
 

renegademaster

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Does it pay for the costs of policing, or the health costs of accidents, pollution and inactivity? All of these are attributable to excessive use of cars.
How much is that ? I think the burden is on the people who wants to tax based on externalities to actually attempt quantify what they are rather than doing it on vague feelings, otherwise you could justify anything. And do you take all the drivers own contributions to the NHS out of that figure?
 

Peter Sarf

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This is the most practical way to implement a road charge. There is plenty of legal precedent in the UK already (with their introduction dates):
the central London congestion charge (2003)​
the London ULEZ (both original and extension) (2019 & 2023 respectively)​
the Birmingham CAZ (2021)​
the Oxford ZEZ (2022)​
the Glasgow LEZ (2023)​
Then there are several districts planning to address their own pollution issues in the near future, including Manchester, Aberdeen, Dundee, Edinburgh, Newcastle, Sheffield, plus a few that currently target certain vehicles e.g. Buses and Taxis, but are likely to encompass private vehicles along the lines of the list above.

So the increasing number of administrations needing to address IC vehicle pollution in their areas, there will soon be a network of residential and built-up areas that are running successful schemes to control the gross volume of emissions, and it may even develop into whole metropolitan areas, e.g. West Midlands, West Yorkshire and Tyneside, which after the initial protests will mena that whole driving populations will be compliant (less a few who think that they will beat the system)! So a polluter pays framework is rapidly growing to overlay a basic road use tax which can cover all vehicles in sensitive areas at an appropriate price for the vehicle.

For a reference on the above info, see: https://www.carwow.co.uk/blog/uk-low-emissions-zones#gref

There is also a comparison of charges for entering zones in non-compliant vehicles, and at £12.50, given the enourmous size of the London ULEZ, it isn't overpriced at all.
My bold - that is not logical. Just because the ULEZ is an enormous area does not justify the charge. A lot of motorists will only be driving in a small proportion of that enormous area. For instance if I have to go to the out of town shopping from Croydon I am not going to drive to North London. Just because the charge is the same so I can drive there does not mean I want to drive that far.

As regards a national road pricing scheme. There is beginning to be scope for that as some of the larger conurbations are within your list above. Most of the rest will follow quite quickly I think. I suppose there are a significant number of smaller towns that would need adding but the trend towards national coverage is there maybe ?.
 
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AM9

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My bold - that is not logical. Just because the ULEZ is an enormous area does not justify the charge. A lot of motorists will only be driving in a small proportion of that enormous area. For instance if I have to go to the out of town shopping from Croydon I am not going to drive to North London. Just because the charge is the same so I can drive there does not mean I want to drive that far.
Actually I disagree. As all of the schemes so far make a flat charge for each day in which a relevant vehicle is recorded as entering the zone, irrespective of how many entries and how far they travel. In each case, the average contribution to pollution is likely to be: a) dependant on the speed of traffic and the duration of the journey owing to congestion, b) the total distance covered within the zone and c) the number of discrete entries within the charging period. Therefore the average quantity of pollution deposited in a large area such as the GLA ULEZ where there are many areas of heavy congestion, is very likely much higher than it would be in even the Birmingham CAZ or the Glasgow LEZ.

As regards a national road pricing scheme. There is beginning to be scope for that as some of the larger conurbations are within your list above. Most of the rest will follow quite quickly I think. I suppose there are a significant number of smaller towns that would need adding but the trend towards national coverage is there maybe ?.
Yes, that is what I feel, and there are quite a few pollution hotspots in realtively small settlements, e.g. St Albans, where repeated attempts to reduce local pollution in the centre have met with oppositon from (some) residents and (some) traders, despite the recorded levels rising above WHO recommended maxima. This is where some of the corridors leading out of major conurbations may find that LEZs are needed to drivers of discourage polluting vehicles from passing therough local hot spots. Thus we might have major routes classified as recommended for cleaner vehicles only, where they pass through these centres, - other non-compliant vehicles would be warned of charges and encouraged to use roads that bypass them to avoid those charges. In areas where much of the land is open country, traffic will probably not be subject to any pollution charges (unless they become rat-runs).
 

Peter Sarf

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Actually I disagree. As all of the schemes so far make a flat charge for each day in which a relevant vehicle is recorded as entering the zone, irrespective of how many entries and how far they travel. In each case, the average contribution to pollution is likely to be: a) dependant on the speed of traffic and the duration of the journey owing to congestion, b) the total distance covered within the zone and c) the number of discrete entries within the charging period. Therefore the average quantity of pollution deposited in a large area such as the GLA ULEZ where there are many areas of heavy congestion, is very likely much higher than it would be in even the Birmingham CAZ or the Glasgow LEZ.


........................................
I don;t see it that way. A larger area would logically generate more pollution overall BUT that is likely to be from a larger number of vehicles. It is not going to be from a smaller number of vehicles doing a longer journey. Granted there will be some doing a journey from outside the ULEZ to the centre so if the zone is bigger then the distance travelled will be greater. But for me, and I suspect many who live in London and breathe this supposedly noxious air, most of my journeys would be a few miles regardless of the size of greater London. So why should we pay more just because London is so big ?.

EDIT - Ooops, we are actually drifting off topic back to the topic many of these posts were moderated out of (ULEZ) !.
 

E27007

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Fuel Duty makes no such distinction.

The "report mileage at MOT" solution also does not require any additional, expensive, infrastructure with the associated political controversy.
A new vehicle does not receive an MoT test for the first three years, by which point it may have covered a considerable mileage, there is also a strong possibility, the MoT wil change to be less frequent, first MoT at four years then every two years as the vehicle ages.
If there is to be a road pricing system, I think it will centre around the technology of the Satellite navigation system "Europa" which is very accurate and has universal coverage

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I don;t see it that way. A larger area would logically generate more pollution overall BUT that is likely to be from a larger number of vehicles. It is not going to be from a smaller number of vehicles doing a longer journey. Granted there will be some doing a journey from outside the ULEZ to the centre so if the zone is bigger then the distance travelled will be greater. But for me, and I suspect many who live in London and breathe this supposedly noxious air, most of my journeys would be a few miles regardless of the size of greater London. So why should we pay more just because London is so big ?.

EDIT - Ooops, we are actually drifting off topic back to the topic many of these posts were moderated out of (ULEZ) !.
In population centres such as cities, the concentration of people and vehicles gives rise to congestion with slow traffic movement and high vehicle-sourced pollution, In London vehicles barely beat the speed of travel the Edwardian horse-drawn carriage. Withtraffic congestion pollution rises dramatically, my hatchback will happily drive on the free-running out of city A1 road covering 55 miles and burn 1 gallon of petrol per hour (low pollution) , take the same car in congested Central London, the fuel consumption can be 2 or 3 gallons per hour, ie far more pollution than when on open free-flowing roads
 
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tomuk

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If there is to be a road pricing system, I think it will centre around the technology of the Satellite navigation system "Europa" which is very accurate and has universal coverage
Do you mean the Galileo system? Which the UK Gov doesn't have access to the encrypted high accuracy signal since Brexit.
 

The Ham

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I suspect that there could be a hybrid solution where you pick your charging system.

Option 1 (highest cost, all miles at 12p per mile plus VED of £150 per year plus congestion charges at the day rate) you pay for the miles your car records you undertake only by means of the mileometer on the dash and congestion charges on the day rate controlled by ANPR.

When you register for this system you pay a £200 deposit which is returned when you log the car as sold with a milage which is confirmed by the buyer any dispute over milage is charged to both parties. MOT garages can confirm milage at any time (they would probably charge), when buying/selling a car privately people would likely do this to limit their liability.

MOT garages which provide mileage which is suspect would be investigated and potentially have fines applied. However they would also have to take a photo and it be backed up to the cloud (like Google photos) with the time/date data included using a DVLA app which also logs the time/date as well as the MOT garage.

ANPR could also provide estimates of miles traveled.

Option 2 (mid cost, you pay for each zone you enter or exit, plus congestion charges) you pay for zonal travel controlled by ANPR. For example rural A road passing through 5 villages means you pay for each of the 5 village zones plus for each of the A road zones between each village, whilst a large town would have major road zones and residential zones, each zone you pass through adds another charge (typically between 5p and 95p per zone, although some rural zones may be free to enter or exit but you are charged if you pass through).

Option 3 (lowest cost, miles are charges at between nothing for rural areas through to 20p per mile, however there's no congestion charge fees), you run an app on your phone or car and it charges you for the miles traveled, ANPR used to check the app is recording miles traveled by means of pairing vehicle references.

Vehicle references are linked to location data (ANPR, GPS or miles logged at MOT), no individual would be able to cross check between location data and end user details as vehicle references are then paired (through another system) to an account reference (only providing time/mileage/cost values), which is then in tern paired (through another system) to payment accounts.

Payment accounts pay the value against a time. This would allow companies to pay for work travel milage whilst staff are requested to pay for personal travel, depending on the agreement this could be directly to the payment account with visibility of time/milage/cost data or by staff submitting a given time/milage/cost value to their accounts department.

As the payment accounts may not actually be the person making the journey (i.e. husband pays for his and wife's travel); all knowing who paid does is know that they have an interest in that journey.

On the back end, staff should be within Chinese walls, so no one person can access the data across all three systems. Although they may be overall oversight of the systems those with that oversight do not have permission to request data. Some may have the ability to see data between two systems but not all three, such data checks would be logged as abnormal requests.

Whilst there would be edge cases where option 2 might work out cheaper on some days (i.e. someone driving between a few urban zones a lot Vs paying a high per mileage rate on the tracked system) generally people would be best off with option 3.

It's then up to them how much they are willing to share that data to have a reduced payment.

Some insurance companies could offer per mile insurance if you allowed them access to your time/milage (but not cost) data.

Payments can be taken automatically each month.

Penalties for speeding (average speed check over a length of half the square of the speed limit, so 450m for a 30 rising to 2,450m for a 70) could be applied, with small fees for small over speeds (say nothing for average speed being +3mph, +3mph to +6mph being 50p, then for each 0.5mph above that it doubling the fee; so +6.5 would be £1, +7 £2, +7.5 £4, +8 £8, +8.5 £16, +9 £32, +9.5 £64, +10 £128, and anything of +10mph or more being a court summons).

In addition for every 2mph above +10mph would earn you one point on your licence plus 1 point (+10 would be 2 points, +12 = 3 points, +14 = 4 points, etc), so go an average of 32mph over the limit and you earn 12 points (so doing 62 in a 30 limit or 102 on a 70 limit).

However if your accrue £150 in fines with a value of £2 or more in any 12 month period you'd be sent on a speed awareness course, more than £300 and you'll do the course again (unless you've already done 4 within the last 3 years) and more that £1,500 in a year or be eligible for that 5th speed awareness course within the last three years and you'll get a court summons.

To rack up £300 at £2 a fine would be 150 offences (or 3 a week) where your going an average of +7mph. That's not a mistake, that's a pattern of behaviour. Especially given the person would have been on one speed awareness course already once they racked up £150.

The app would show you speed limit, real speed and average speed, with a warning colour (amber) shown at +3mph and a further warning colour (red) at +6mph.

Whilst that'll mean those opting for option 1 or 2 are still at a lower risk of being caught speeding (although ANPR could also pick up average speed checks for speeding) their ability to speed would be limited by the fact a lot of people around them would be sticking to the speed limit. However, fines for being caught would increase, with their being tiered fines as their recorded speed gets higher. The fine would be a minimum of double of the fee for others. They would only have one option for one speed awareness course per year and that would be at a national level rather than per police force. They would also be subject to a minimum of 3 points on their licence.
 

edwin_m

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How much is that ? I think the burden is on the people who wants to tax based on externalities to actually attempt quantify what they are rather than doing it on vague feelings, otherwise you could justify anything. And do you take all the drivers own contributions to the NHS out of that figure?
I don't know, I'm not the government or someone with the resources to find out, but those externalities definitely exist albeit unquantified. But equally we shouldn't be dismissing it based on vague feelings either.

If you're referring to the contribution driver's insurers are asked for, then again I don't know but I'd guess it was way below the actual cost of treatment. If anyone has any figures on any of this, it would be very useful to see them.
 

renegademaster

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I don't know, I'm not the government or someone with the resources to find out, but those externalities definitely exist albeit unquantified. But equally we shouldn't be dismissing it based on vague feelings either.

If you're referring to the contribution driver's insurers are asked for, then again I don't know but I'd guess it was way below the actual cost of treatment. If anyone has any figures on any of this, it would be very useful to see them
I was more just thinking of all the tax they've paid towards it over the years
 

Peter Sarf

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I suspect that there could be a hybrid solution where you pick your charging system.

Option 1 (highest cost, all miles at 12p per mile plus VED of £150 per year plus congestion charges at the day rate) you pay for the miles your car records you undertake only by means of the mileometer on the dash and congestion charges on the day rate controlled by ANPR.

When you register for this system you pay a £200 deposit which is returned when you log the car as sold with a milage which is confirmed by the buyer any dispute over milage is charged to both parties. MOT garages can confirm milage at any time (they would probably charge), when buying/selling a car privately people would likely do this to limit their liability.

MOT garages which provide mileage which is suspect would be investigated and potentially have fines applied. However they would also have to take a photo and it be backed up to the cloud (like Google photos) with the time/date data included using a DVLA app which also logs the time/date as well as the MOT garage.

ANPR could also provide estimates of miles traveled.

Option 2 (mid cost, you pay for each zone you enter or exit, plus congestion charges) you pay for zonal travel controlled by ANPR. For example rural A road passing through 5 villages means you pay for each of the 5 village zones plus for each of the A road zones between each village, whilst a large town would have major road zones and residential zones, each zone you pass through adds another charge (typically between 5p and 95p per zone, although some rural zones may be free to enter or exit but you are charged if you pass through).

Option 3 (lowest cost, miles are charges at between nothing for rural areas through to 20p per mile, however there's no congestion charge fees), you run an app on your phone or car and it charges you for the miles traveled, ANPR used to check the app is recording miles traveled by means of pairing vehicle references.

Vehicle references are linked to location data (ANPR, GPS or miles logged at MOT), no individual would be able to cross check between location data and end user details as vehicle references are then paired (through another system) to an account reference (only providing time/mileage/cost values), which is then in tern paired (through another system) to payment accounts.

Payment accounts pay the value against a time. This would allow companies to pay for work travel milage whilst staff are requested to pay for personal travel, depending on the agreement this could be directly to the payment account with visibility of time/milage/cost data or by staff submitting a given time/milage/cost value to their accounts department.

As the payment accounts may not actually be the person making the journey (i.e. husband pays for his and wife's travel); all knowing who paid does is know that they have an interest in that journey.

On the back end, staff should be within Chinese walls, so no one person can access the data across all three systems. Although they may be overall oversight of the systems those with that oversight do not have permission to request data. Some may have the ability to see data between two systems but not all three, such data checks would be logged as abnormal requests.

Whilst there would be edge cases where option 2 might work out cheaper on some days (i.e. someone driving between a few urban zones a lot Vs paying a high per mileage rate on the tracked system) generally people would be best off with option 3.

It's then up to them how much they are willing to share that data to have a reduced payment.

Some insurance companies could offer per mile insurance if you allowed them access to your time/milage (but not cost) data.

Payments can be taken automatically each month.

Penalties for speeding (average speed check over a length of half the square of the speed limit, so 450m for a 30 rising to 2,450m for a 70) could be applied, with small fees for small over speeds (say nothing for average speed being +3mph, +3mph to +6mph being 50p, then for each 0.5mph above that it doubling the fee; so +6.5 would be £1, +7 £2, +7.5 £4, +8 £8, +8.5 £16, +9 £32, +9.5 £64, +10 £128, and anything of +10mph or more being a court summons).

In addition for every 2mph above +10mph would earn you one point on your licence plus 1 point (+10 would be 2 points, +12 = 3 points, +14 = 4 points, etc), so go an average of 32mph over the limit and you earn 12 points (so doing 62 in a 30 limit or 102 on a 70 limit).

However if your accrue £150 in fines with a value of £2 or more in any 12 month period you'd be sent on a speed awareness course, more than £300 and you'll do the course again (unless you've already done 4 within the last 3 years) and more that £1,500 in a year or be eligible for that 5th speed awareness course within the last three years and you'll get a court summons.

To rack up £300 at £2 a fine would be 150 offences (or 3 a week) where your going an average of +7mph. That's not a mistake, that's a pattern of behaviour. Especially given the person would have been on one speed awareness course already once they racked up £150.

The app would show you speed limit, real speed and average speed, with a warning colour (amber) shown at +3mph and a further warning colour (red) at +6mph.

Whilst that'll mean those opting for option 1 or 2 are still at a lower risk of being caught speeding (although ANPR could also pick up average speed checks for speeding) their ability to speed would be limited by the fact a lot of people around them would be sticking to the speed limit. However, fines for being caught would increase, with their being tiered fines as their recorded speed gets higher. The fine would be a minimum of double of the fee for others. They would only have one option for one speed awareness course per year and that would be at a national level rather than per police force. They would also be subject to a minimum of 3 points on their licence.
Interesting set of ideas. Your Option 3 would work well with the black boxes insurance companies are getting some drivers to have fitted. I doubt it would be a big deal to make the black box cater for option 3. As a good driver (he says) I would like to think I would benefit from option 3. I try to stick to the speed limit but we all make mistakes. It would catch out the drivers who try to avoid getting caught - which I think covers a lot of drivers.

You talk about a driver sticking to the speed limit slowing following drivers down. Very true !. In my experience sticking to 20mph I can sense the wrath of the driver behind !. Back in the days before 20mph I remember sticking to 30mph on my route to/from work I could sense the utter frustration of some drivers behind me then. All faded away a few months after speed cameras were installed !. So I probably was more aware of my speed instead of just letting my speed increase to that of the car in front and behind !.

Speed bumps could become a thing of the past. That means I could drive at a steady 20mph instead of accelerating and braking to 5mph for each bump OR just sticking to 5mph on my estate. I could save petrol, those who speed regardless of the bumps would stick to 20 and there would be less pollution and damage to cars.
 

Peter Sarf

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With Intelligent Speed Assistance there should be no speeding anyway.
Ignoring all the wilful speeders who need constant monitoring (average speed over short enough distances). Those kind of drivers make it their business to know where the normal speed cameras are.
 

A0

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Does it pay for the costs of policing, or the health costs of accidents, pollution and inactivity? All of these are attributable to excessive use of cars.

Do rail passenger fares cover the costs of policing the rail network? Do rail fares cover the cost of NHS treatment for anyone injured on the railways ? Since the rail network only survives due to huge subsidies, the answer is no.

What about injuries cyclists sustain when they come off their bikes ? Do cyclists cover the cost of their NHS trreatment ?
 

Peter Sarf

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Does it pay for the costs of policing, or the health costs of accidents, pollution and inactivity? All of these are attributable to excessive use of cars.
I think the total income from road vehicle taxes far exceeds that required to cover all peripheral/consequential motoring costs (hospital treatment, pollution etc). It is why use of Electric Vehicles will have to be taxed sooner rather than later - the state won't survive without the income !.
 

E27007

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I cannot find the article, but roads are paid for out of general taxation, the article contained the information that if roads were paid for, not out of general taxation, but as a stand-alone tax to the motorist, the "road tax" would not be the modest sum today, but would be well over £1000 per car
 

stuu

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What about injuries cyclists sustain when they come off their bikes ? Do cyclists cover the cost of their NHS trreatment ?
People who regularly cycle are likely to be healthier so won't cost the NHS as much in the long term
 
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