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1955 BR modernisation plan - what would you have done differently?

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ac6000cw

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Comparing the timetables for the north section of the WCML pre- and post-electrification would provide a useful comparison of contemporary electrics v. contemporary diesels, if anyone has the relevant timetables.
I don't have the timetables, but with 5000hp at rail for a class 87 (and a bit more short term) versus probably less than 4500hp at rail for double-headed class 50s (there's ETS load to subtract as well), the electrics would easily beat the diesels. In dry weather at least.

But keep in mind if comparing pre/post electrification timetables that it was a total route modernisation of the northern WCML 1970-1974 - re-signalling, rationalisation of layouts, improved line speeds where possible (from memory, the curving/cant deficiency rules were pushed to the max in places) in addition to electrification. The class 50s north of Weaver Junction were pretty much running on steam-age infrastructure until the early 1970s.
 
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A0

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They could have gone (gradually) straight from steam to 3kv DC overhead (rather than 1.5kv), with diesel or other only for lightly used lines? Almost universal electrification (thus using local coal rather than non-local diesel) but no 'need' 25kv ac until hs1...? Or use higher dc in modern day as required with multi voltage emus/locomotives?

3kv dc could have coexisted with third rail thus allowing gradual replacement of it.

In modern times BR could then claim to have magically forseen that modern Dc overhead would miss out a conversion stage cd 25kv ac due to modern 3 phase to 25kv ac solid state converters...

Well 1.5kv DC was already in place on the Manchester - Sheffield Wath and Great Eastern as far as Shenfield with extensions to Southend and Chelmsford in flight when the Modernisation Plan came out.

It would have made more sense to have kept the East Anglian suburban services (including the LTS) as 1.5kv DC until life expiry of the equipment.

I agree with you on 3rd rail - I'd have gone dual system on the Southern - basically changing to 1.5kv DC where the 3rd rail ended - which would have made dual voltage / dual supply EMUs fairly straightforward electrically.

The WCML made sense to do as 25kv AC because apart from a few miles of suburban into London ann Manchester there wasn't any existing system in use.
 

Merseyrailfan

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Personally, I would keep steam on non electrified Secondary lines like Settle to Carlisle Line for semi fast services, and 9Fs for freight services until diesel or electric equivalent in late 70s/ early 80s could be Bulit. However, I would get rid of all pre grouping locos, and a lot of smaller Big Fours fleet retaining Black Fives, Princess Royal, Jubillee, LMS 8Fs extra for lines in Yorkshire Dales and A4s and A3s for Highland lines, with other bigger steam fleets in other regions. Getting rid of Big Four steam fleet by late 70s. Keep the standard fleet for use on secondary lines and freight services around Whole network until 80s.

I would put more focus on electrification on main lines so get electric locos and EMUs, also making sure there was a standardised electrification system for all new schemes outside existing Third Rail areas of 25kv. Then, cascade steam fleet to secondary nonelectrified lines in medium term, before Diesel locos could replace steam in 70s on Passenger services, intending to get rid of steam on passenger services by 1975/76. For branch lines, I would invest in DMUs to replace tank engines, to reduce costs on lines to halt some of closures of Beeching cuts, Also I would rationalise lines to single track to reduce maintenance costs on Branch lines that are socially needed but struggling to make profit. Rather than needing like 50 classes of diesel locomotive, we would only have like 10 standardised diesel classes and 40 electric locos classes, I also update the West Coast Mainline south of Crewe , Great western mainline to Bristol temple meads and Cardiff and East Coast Mainline for 150 mph running and in cab signalling to make this happening and On bendier sections, I would invest more in APT to run at about 125 mph above Crewe on west coast Mainline and Also see about high speed upgrades to Cornwall and Midland Main Line. I Would electrify about 60% of Britain rails, only remote routes like Cambrian, Far North, Settle and Carlisle and branches line would not be electrifield.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I don't have the timetables, but with 5000hp at rail for a class 87 (and a bit more short term) versus probably less than 4500hp at rail for double-headed class 50s (there's ETS load to subtract as well), the electrics would easily beat the diesels. In dry weather at least.

But keep in mind if comparing pre/post electrification timetables that it was a total route modernisation of the northern WCML 1970-1974 - re-signalling, rationalisation of layouts, improved line speeds where possible (from memory, the curving/cant deficiency rules were pushed to the max in places) in addition to electrification. The class 50s north of Weaver Junction were pretty much running on steam-age infrastructure until the early 1970s.
They we’re running about max of 90 mph maybe 100 south of Lancaster.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Also, I would keep some Beeching proposals but on lesser scale.
 

AHBD

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Well 1.5kv DC was already in place on the Manchester - Sheffield Wath and Great Eastern as far as Shenfield with extensions to Southend and Chelmsford in flight when the Modernisation Plan came out.

It would have made more sense to have kept the East Anglian suburban services (including the LTS) as 1.5kv DC until life expiry of the equipment.....
I am puzzled why the Manchester - Woodhead Sheffield Wath route, when rather belatedly electrified, wasn't respecified from 1.5kv to 3kv, so can I stretch the OP a bit to include it as being included in the OP. as 3kv.. :)

3kv just seens an available at the time standard that could have seen us through to present day (and beyond) allowing much much more electrification earlier and an easier route out of third rail. Similarly , the 1.5kv East Anglian services you mention could just be replaced by 3kv when life expired?

At some point more modern DC locomotives/emus could be multi voltage allowing lines higher than 3kv dc when appropriate.
 

ac6000cw

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I am puzzled why the Manchester - Woodhead Sheffield Wath route, when rather belatedly electrified, wasn't respecified from 1.5kv to 3kv, so can I stretch the OP a bit to include it as being included in the OP. as 3kv.. :)
AFAIK, the Woodhead line and Liverpool Street suburban electrifications were essentially pre-WW2 LNER projects that got restarted after nationalisation.
 

AHBD

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AFAIK, the Woodhead line and Liverpool Street suburban electrifications were essentially pre-WW2 LNER projects that got restarted after nationalisation.
But had the 1.5kv parts been already been made or bought?...if not, then a change to 3kv would be possible for a reasonable cost/ worth it?
 

ac6000cw

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But had the 1.5kv parts been already been made or bought?...if not, then a change to 3kv would be possible for a reasonable cost/ worth it?
For Woodhead, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester–Sheffield–Wath_electric_railway#Prewar_situation_and_progress

Basically construction work had been done on the project pre-WW2, and I assume all the design work. There was also a prototype loco built. The Liverpool Street suburban electrification was also underway pre-WW2. Both schemes were originally financed by low-interest government loans available in the 1930s to help reduce unemployment.

What is the difference in electrical clearances required for 3kV DC versus 1.5kV DC (as you're pushing the idea of using 3kV)?
 
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AHBD

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For Woodhead, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester–Sheffield–Wath_electric_railway#Prewar_situation_and_progress

Basically construction work had been done on the project pre-WW2, and I assume all the design work. There was also a prototype loco built. The Liverpool Street suburban electrification was also underway pre-WW2. Both schemes were originally financed by low-interest government loans available in the 1930s to help reduce unemployment.

What is the difference in electrical clearances required for 3kV DC versus 1.5kV DC (as you're pushing the idea of using 3kV)?
I had presumed it wouldn't be too bad but am having difficulty finding a comparison of 1.5kv with 3kv railwsy clearances.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

EDIT
........
What is the difference in electrical clearances required for 3kV DC versus 1.5kV DC (as you're pushing the idea of using 3kV)?
It seems 3kv was no problem with clearances cf 1.5kv *, so my alternative history of early country wide 3kv dc overhead rather than mass dieselisation is possible :)
*
 
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ac6000cw

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Reading the 1921 electrification committee report, I can't find anywhere it gives reasons for choosing 1500V DC overhead (versus e.g. 3000V DC), but it does talk about (or alludes to) locomotives and MU trains that could operate on both that and 750V DC.

So maybe one factor was that 750V/1500V rolling stock was regarded as more feasible/cheaper using the technology of the day (over a century ago!) than 750V/3000V?
 

coppercapped

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Coming a bit late to the party…

…but looking back through the earlier posts in this interesting thread my impression is that, with the exception of the views of a couple of posters, the emphasis of the thread is on the implementation of electrification or dieselisation in terms of specific routes or types of rolling stock and electrification systems. This rather misses the crucial issues facing the newly nationalised railways after the end of the Second World War and which led to the Modernisation Plan and the first Beeching Report.

I would suggest that BR’s financial problems leading up to the 1955 Modernisation Plan and the contents and recommendations included in the plan were a direct result of the institutional issues in the structure and remit of the British Transport Commission (BTC) as set up by the 1947 Transport Act.

The history of the relationships between the BTC and its various 'agents', the 'Executives' for the different modes of transport, is complex. The 1947 Act set up the BTC to encourage each form of inland transport to specialise in the types of services for which it was most suited. It also set up the public bodies known as 'Executives' to assist it in this task and act as its agents.

However the form of Nationalisation adopted was badly flawed in the sense that the structure chosen for the the organisation was inherently not capable of delivering the aims set out in the Act. The aim was the coordination of inland transport, so it would have been sensible to have set up the BTC functionally - operations, commercial, financial, engineering and so on - so the most effective mode, or modes, for a particular movement could have been identified. But the Act setting up the BTC also set up its 'agents' by form of transport, e.g., the Railway Executive (RE), the Waterways Executive, Road Haulage and so on, and the Government appointed members of these Executives directly. Inevitably the result was that each Executive fought its own corner and the BTC had little control over them - it did not control the Executives' budgets except at the highest level, it could not move Members of an Executive to a different job or fire those who were thwarting the aims of the Commission because these Members had been selected by the Government.

The RE kept the Commission - which it saw more as a supervisory board - at arm's length by sending it only edited copies of its Minutes. It ran itself as if it were a railway company operating in isolation.

Within a week of nationalisation, on 8 January 1948, the RE set up the Locomotive Standards Committee to lay the groundwork for BR’s ’Standard’ steam locomotives.

The BTC was concerned about the need for new designs of steam locomotives being promoted by the RE and the lack of interest shown by it in the potential of diesel traction. With this in mind, the BTC's records show that it took action after noting the speed with which the Executive was tackling the standardisation of steam motive power and in April 1948, the same month that the locomotive exchanges took place, the BTC’s Chairman (Hurcomb) wrote to Sir Eustace Missenden, the Chairman of the RE, to express his dissatisfaction with the progress made in assessing the merits of different forms of traction.

The reaction was grudging - over 8 months later, on 20 December 1948, a committee was set up under J. L. Harrington, the Chief Officer (Administration) at RE Headquarters to study other forms of traction. It finally reported at the end of 1951 - 3 1/2 years later and when the first of the ‘Standard’ locomotives had already been built.

One of the extraordinary features of the Harrington report was the very crude nature of the financial figures presented. The cost comparisons were for built cost only - no effort whatsoever was made to relate operating costs to different manning levels both on the train and in the depots or utilisation or total capital requirements for a given level of service or to identify cost/ton-mile or per passenger-mile. It would seem that the RE had little need for financial analysis in deciding its traction policy, nor did it need the BTC to shove its oar in. Until electrification was practical it considered that modern steam locomotives should haul the trains in spite of the railways using large quantities of coal because of the low thermal efficiency of the steam locomotive - a 1952 report by the Federation of British Industries put this as low as 4% overall. The result that the British railways burnt 14 million tons of coal each year.

The railways made no attempt whatsoever to try to identify what the railway could or should do in its offer of transport services to businesses and the population at large. In part this was due to the 1947 Act effectively freezing the commercial, financial and political framework in which the railways operated in the state found in 1938 (when railway operations were placed under Government control in the expectation of war); in part because the BTC/RE split made such work almost impossible and in part because Robin Riddles wanted to be remembered alongside Churchward, Stanier and Gresley.

But the world had moved on. The fact that steam traction was very labour intensive had passed the RE by, although some 360,000 fit young men had been killed in the war and there was full employment as the country returned to a civilian footing, repairing bomb damage and building the New Towns. In fact labour shortages encouraged citizens from the Empire and Commonwealth to seek work in this country. Note however that the Empire Windrush arrived in June 1948 so Riddles cannot have taken this supply of labour into account when planning ‘Britannia’... Already by 1948 a large supply of cheap labour to work anti-social hours in steam sheds was no longer available.

There had been huge developments in internal combustion engines and control systems during the war; drawing office staffs would have been much better employed in improving Ivatt’s 10000 and 10001 and building small series of Mk2 and Mk3 versions of these locomotives and continuing the development of the seminal intercity diesel railcars built by the GWR and used on the Cardiff-Birmingham route just before the war.

Instead BR worked on steam locomotives with the result that main line diesel and electric traction development effectively stopped. BR’s Modernisation Plan foresaw the building of the ‘Pilot Scheme’ diesels - the point I am trying to make is that this ‘Pilot Scheme’ should have happened 10 years earlier. Diesels were not untested technology, by 1949 in the USA nearly half of the passenger and shunting work and one third of the freight traffic were covered by diesel-electric traction. Diesel traction worked - and the oil shortage claimed by many did not exist. The country was awash with petrol and oil fuels - supplies were sufficient to have powered an army and an air force across Europe only a year or two earlier. Petrol became available on ration for private cars in 1948 and the rationing ceased in 1950 so plenty of oil would have been available for the few diesel locomotives then likely to exist. In those days Persia was in the Sterling Area so there was no need of dollars to buy oil from the USA - the main source during the war.

Until a couple of years before the Modernisation Plan the railways had always been profitable - even if only just! There had never been an expectation, even in the 1947 Act, that the railways would be in need of a continual subsidy. Until 1950/51 the railways’ accounts were in balance but from then onwards the surplus on operating account progressively declined. After 1953 the surplus became too small to meet capital charges and after 1955 there was a loss on an operating level. This is the background to the Modernisation Plan - the intention was to return to profitability. However by 1960 the annual loss on operating account had risen to £67.7 million which rose further to £86.9 million in 1961 so setting the scene for the first Beeching Report.

If the British Transport commission and the Railway Executive had grasped the future, instead of hanging on to the past, then the whole history of BR would have been very different. In all probability there would have been no need for a ‘Modernisation Plan’, or its immediate consequence the ‘Re-shaping of British Railways’ report, as change would have happened in a controlled manner over a longer period.

Congratulations if you have read this far!
 
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Tester

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Coming a bit late to the party…

…but looking back through the earlier posts in this interesting thread my impression is that, with the exception of the views of a couple of posters, the emphasis of the thread is on the implementation of electrification or dieselisation in terms of specific routes or types of rolling stock and electrification systems. This rather misses the crucial issues facing the newly nationalised railways after the end of the Second World War and which led to the Modernisation Plan and the first Beeching Report.

I would suggest that BR’s financial problems leading up to the 1955 Modernisation Plan and the contents and recommendations included in the plan were a direct result of the institutional issues in the structure and remit of the British Transport Commission (BTC) as set up by the 1947 Transport Act.

The history of the relationships between the BTC and its various 'agents', the 'Executives' for the different modes of transport, is complex. The 1947 Act set up the BTC to encourage each form of inland transport to specialise in the types of services for which it was most suited. It also set up the public bodies known as 'Executives' to assist it in this task and act as its agents.

However the form of Nationalisation adopted was badly flawed in the sense that the structure chosen for the the organisation was inherently not capable of delivering the aims set out in the Act. The aim was the coordination of inland transport, so it would have been sensible to have set up the BTC functionally - operations, commercial, financial, engineering and so on - so the most effective mode, or modes, for a particular movement could have been identified. But the Act setting up the BTC also set up its 'agents' by form of transport, e.g., the Railway Executive (RE), the Waterways Executive, Road Haulage and so on, and the Government appointed members of these Executives directly. Inevitably the result was that each Executive fought its own corner and the BTC had little control over them - it did not control the Executives' budgets except at the highest level, it could not move Members of an Executive to a different job or fire those who were thwarting the aims of the Commission because these Members had been selected by the Government.

The RE kept the Commission - which it saw more as a supervisory board - at arm's length by sending it only edited copies of its Minutes. It ran itself as if it were a railway company operating in isolation.

Within a week of nationalisation, on 8 January 1948, the RE set up the Locomotive Standards Committee to lay the groundwork for BR’s ’Standard’ steam locomotives.

The BTC was concerned about the need for new designs of steam locomotives being promoted by the RE and the lack of interest shown by it in the potential of diesel traction. With this in mind, the BTC's records show that it took action after noting the speed with which the Executive was tackling the standardisation of steam motive power and in April 1948, the same month that the locomotive exchanges took place, the BTC’s Chairman (Hurcomb) wrote to Sir Eustace Missenden, the Chairman of the RE, to express his dissatisfaction with the progress made in assessing the merits of different forms of traction.

The reaction was grudging - over 8 months later, on 20 December 1948, a committee was set up under J. L. Harrington, the Chief Officer (Administration) at RE Headquarters to study other forms of traction. It finally reported at the end of 1951 - 3 1/2 years later and when the first of the ‘Standard’ locomotives had already been built.

One of the extraordinary features of the Harrington report was the very crude nature of the financial figures presented. The cost comparisons were for built cost only - no effort whatsoever was made to relate operating costs to different manning levels both on the train and in the depots or utilisation or total capital requirements for a given level of service or to identify cost/ton-mile or per passenger-mile. It would seem that the RE had little need for financial analysis in deciding its traction policy, nor did it need the BTC to shove its oar in. Until electrification was practical it considered that modern steam locomotives should haul the trains in spite of the railways using large quantities of coal because of the low thermal efficiency of the steam locomotive - a 1952 report by the Federation of British Industries put this as low as 4% overall. The result that the British railways burnt 14 million tons of coal each year.

The railways made no attempt whatsoever to try to identify what the railway could or should do in its offer of transport services to businesses and the population at large. In part this was due to the 1947 Act effectively freezing the commercial, financial and political framework in which the railways operated in the state found in 1938 (when railway operations were placed under Government control in the expectation of war); in part because the BTC/RE split made such work almost impossible and in part because Robin Riddles wanted to be remembered alongside Churchward, Stanier and Gresley.

But the world had moved on. The fact that steam traction was very labour intensive had passed the RE by, although some 360,000 fit young men had been killed in the war and there was full employment as the country returned to a civilian footing, repairing bomb damage and building the New Towns. In fact labour shortages encouraged citizens from the Empire and Commonwealth to seek work in this country. Note however that the Empire Windrush arrived in June 1948 so Riddles cannot have taken this supply of labour into account when planning ‘Britannia’... Already by 1948 a large supply of cheap labour to work anti-social hours in steam sheds was no longer available.

There had been huge developments in internal combustion engines and control systems during the war; drawing office staffs would have been much better employed in improving Ivatt’s 10000 and 10001 and building small series of Mk2 and Mk3 versions of these locomotives and continuing the development of the seminal intercity diesel railcars built by the GWR and used on the Cardiff-Birmingham route just before the war.

Instead BR worked on steam locomotives with the result that main line diesel and electric traction development effectively stopped. BR’s Modernisation Plan foresaw the building of the ‘Pilot Scheme’ diesels - the point I am trying to make is that this ‘Pilot Scheme’ should have happened 10 years earlier. Diesels were not untested technology, by 1949 in the USA nearly half of the passenger and shunting work and one third of the freight traffic were covered by diesel-electric traction. Diesel traction worked - and the oil shortage claimed by many did not exist. The country was awash with petrol and oil fuels - supplies were sufficient to have powered an army and an air force across Europe only a year or two earlier. Petrol became available on ration for private cars in 1948 and the rationing ceased in 1950 so plenty of oil would have been available for the few diesel locomotives then likely to exist. In those days Persia was in the Sterling Area so there was no need of dollars to buy oil from the USA - the main source during the war.

Until a couple of years before the Modernisation Plan the railways had always been profitable - even if only just! There had never been an expectation, even in the 1947 Act, that the railways would be in need of a continual subsidy. Until 1950/51 the railways’ accounts were in balance but from then onwards the surplus on operating account progressively declined. After 1953 the surplus became too small to meet capital charges and after 1955 there was a loss on an operating level. This is the background to the Modernisation Plan - the intention was to return to profitability. However by 1960 the annual loss on operating account had risen to £67.7 million which rose further to £86.9 million in 1961 so setting the scene for the first Beeching Report.

If the British Transport commission and the Railway Executive had grasped the future, instead of hanging on to the past, then the whole history of BR would have been very different. In all probability there would have been no need for a ‘Modernisation Plan’, or its immediate consequence the ‘Re-shaping of British Railways’ report, as change would have happened in a controlled manner over a longer period.

Congratulations if you have read this far!
Impressive - thank you!
 

Grumpy

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Congratulations if you have read this far!
Indeed and pretty much spot on.

The references to the accounts being in surplus need to be taken with a pinch of salt. These were on a historical cost accounting basis and the depreciation provision figures included were based on assets bought at pre-war prices and wholly inadequate to fund replacements at post war prices. In reality the business couldn't generate the cash to keep going in its then form, never mind modernise.

Most posts on this thread tend to focus on the replacement of steam locos. However of course this was only approx a quarter of the £1.2 billion plan, and was dwarfed by projected expenditure on track and signalling, rolling stock replacement(largely freight), and reorganisation of the freight business operation (eg new marshalling yards).
 

ac6000cw

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Congratulations if you have read this far!
I have, and while I don't have your detailed knowledge of the workings of the BTC & RE at the time, I very much agree with the (very well argued) main points you make.

Instead BR worked on steam locomotives with the result that main line diesel and electric traction development effectively stopped. BR’s Modernisation Plan foresaw the building of the ‘Pilot Scheme’ diesels - the point I am trying to make is that this ‘Pilot Scheme’ should have happened 10 years earlier. Diesels were not untested technology, by 1949 in the USA nearly half of the passenger and shunting work and one third of the freight traffic were covered by diesel-electric traction. Diesel traction worked
Exactly - and the reason why the US railroad industry switched from steam to diesel basically as fast as it could after WW2 was because the operating and servicing costs were so much lower than steam (even the diehard railroads had given in by the late 1950s). Some people in the UK knew that too - why else had the LMS been replacing steam shunters with diesels since the 1930s, and at least dipping a toe in the mainline water with 10000 & 10001. In 1948 I think companies like English Electric were on a par technically with the likes of GM-EMD in terms of building diesel-electric locos, but instead of 'the railway' supporting the ongoing development of that industry by buying the products in quantity, it almost seemed to turn in on itself and stick its head in the sand. And people wonder why we don't have much of a home-grown rolling stock industry any more...
 

eldomtom2

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Diesel traction worked - and the oil shortage claimed by many did not exist. The country was awash with petrol and oil fuels - supplies were sufficient to have powered an army and an air force across Europe only a year or two earlier. Petrol became available on ration for private cars in 1948 and the rationing ceased in 1950 so plenty of oil would have been available for the few diesel locomotives then likely to exist. In those days Persia was in the Sterling Area so there was no need of dollars to buy oil from the USA - the main source during the war.
The fact is that the GWR was directly told in 1947 to cease oil-firing experiments due to oil shortages and the lack of US dollars. Your retroactive claims don't change the fact that at the time there was at least some pushback from the government towards the railways consuming oil.

It is also instructive to compare the UK with other countries in Western Europe and realise that the UK actually dieselised faster than most.

I also consider it highly dubious to claim that the railways could have been made to pay their way in light of the great changes in transportation that happened in the 1950s, not without trying to do Serpell thirty years earlier and encountering massive public opposition.
And people wonder why we don't have much of a home-grown rolling stock industry any more...
There were hardly a lot of UK loco manufacturers going bust in the 1945-55 period...
 

Peterthegreat

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The fact is that the GWR was directly told in 1947 to cease oil-firing experiments due to oil shortages and the lack of US dollars. Your retroactive claims don't change the fact that at the time there was at least some pushback from the government towards the railways consuming oil.

It is also instructive to compare the UK with other countries in Western Europe and realise that the UK actually dieselised faster than most.

I also consider it highly dubious to claim that the railways could have been made to pay their way in light of the great changes in transportation that happened in the 1950s, not without trying to do Serpell thirty years earlier and encountering massive public opposition.

There were hardly a lot of UK loco manufacturers going bust in the 1945-55 period...
Exactly. Oil was relatively expensive and had to be imported but coal was cheap and available in large quantities.
 

yorksrob

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Coming a bit late to the party…

…but looking back through the earlier posts in this interesting thread my impression is that, with the exception of the views of a couple of posters, the emphasis of the thread is on the implementation of electrification or dieselisation in terms of specific routes or types of rolling stock and electrification systems. This rather misses the crucial issues facing the newly nationalised railways after the end of the Second World War and which led to the Modernisation Plan and the first Beeching Report.

I would suggest that BR’s financial problems leading up to the 1955 Modernisation Plan and the contents and recommendations included in the plan were a direct result of the institutional issues in the structure and remit of the British Transport Commission (BTC) as set up by the 1947 Transport Act.

The history of the relationships between the BTC and its various 'agents', the 'Executives' for the different modes of transport, is complex. The 1947 Act set up the BTC to encourage each form of inland transport to specialise in the types of services for which it was most suited. It also set up the public bodies known as 'Executives' to assist it in this task and act as its agents.

However the form of Nationalisation adopted was badly flawed in the sense that the structure chosen for the the organisation was inherently not capable of delivering the aims set out in the Act. The aim was the coordination of inland transport, so it would have been sensible to have set up the BTC functionally - operations, commercial, financial, engineering and so on - so the most effective mode, or modes, for a particular movement could have been identified. But the Act setting up the BTC also set up its 'agents' by form of transport, e.g., the Railway Executive (RE), the Waterways Executive, Road Haulage and so on, and the Government appointed members of these Executives directly. Inevitably the result was that each Executive fought its own corner and the BTC had little control over them - it did not control the Executives' budgets except at the highest level, it could not move Members of an Executive to a different job or fire those who were thwarting the aims of the Commission because these Members had been selected by the Government.

The RE kept the Commission - which it saw more as a supervisory board - at arm's length by sending it only edited copies of its Minutes. It ran itself as if it were a railway company operating in isolation.

Within a week of nationalisation, on 8 January 1948, the RE set up the Locomotive Standards Committee to lay the groundwork for BR’s ’Standard’ steam locomotives.

The BTC was concerned about the need for new designs of steam locomotives being promoted by the RE and the lack of interest shown by it in the potential of diesel traction. With this in mind, the BTC's records show that it took action after noting the speed with which the Executive was tackling the standardisation of steam motive power and in April 1948, the same month that the locomotive exchanges took place, the BTC’s Chairman (Hurcomb) wrote to Sir Eustace Missenden, the Chairman of the RE, to express his dissatisfaction with the progress made in assessing the merits of different forms of traction.

The reaction was grudging - over 8 months later, on 20 December 1948, a committee was set up under J. L. Harrington, the Chief Officer (Administration) at RE Headquarters to study other forms of traction. It finally reported at the end of 1951 - 3 1/2 years later and when the first of the ‘Standard’ locomotives had already been built.

One of the extraordinary features of the Harrington report was the very crude nature of the financial figures presented. The cost comparisons were for built cost only - no effort whatsoever was made to relate operating costs to different manning levels both on the train and in the depots or utilisation or total capital requirements for a given level of service or to identify cost/ton-mile or per passenger-mile. It would seem that the RE had little need for financial analysis in deciding its traction policy, nor did it need the BTC to shove its oar in. Until electrification was practical it considered that modern steam locomotives should haul the trains in spite of the railways using large quantities of coal because of the low thermal efficiency of the steam locomotive - a 1952 report by the Federation of British Industries put this as low as 4% overall. The result that the British railways burnt 14 million tons of coal each year.

The railways made no attempt whatsoever to try to identify what the railway could or should do in its offer of transport services to businesses and the population at large. In part this was due to the 1947 Act effectively freezing the commercial, financial and political framework in which the railways operated in the state found in 1938 (when railway operations were placed under Government control in the expectation of war); in part because the BTC/RE split made such work almost impossible and in part because Robin Riddles wanted to be remembered alongside Churchward, Stanier and Gresley.

But the world had moved on. The fact that steam traction was very labour intensive had passed the RE by, although some 360,000 fit young men had been killed in the war and there was full employment as the country returned to a civilian footing, repairing bomb damage and building the New Towns. In fact labour shortages encouraged citizens from the Empire and Commonwealth to seek work in this country. Note however that the Empire Windrush arrived in June 1948 so Riddles cannot have taken this supply of labour into account when planning ‘Britannia’... Already by 1948 a large supply of cheap labour to work anti-social hours in steam sheds was no longer available.

There had been huge developments in internal combustion engines and control systems during the war; drawing office staffs would have been much better employed in improving Ivatt’s 10000 and 10001 and building small series of Mk2 and Mk3 versions of these locomotives and continuing the development of the seminal intercity diesel railcars built by the GWR and used on the Cardiff-Birmingham route just before the war.

Instead BR worked on steam locomotives with the result that main line diesel and electric traction development effectively stopped. BR’s Modernisation Plan foresaw the building of the ‘Pilot Scheme’ diesels - the point I am trying to make is that this ‘Pilot Scheme’ should have happened 10 years earlier. Diesels were not untested technology, by 1949 in the USA nearly half of the passenger and shunting work and one third of the freight traffic were covered by diesel-electric traction. Diesel traction worked - and the oil shortage claimed by many did not exist. The country was awash with petrol and oil fuels - supplies were sufficient to have powered an army and an air force across Europe only a year or two earlier. Petrol became available on ration for private cars in 1948 and the rationing ceased in 1950 so plenty of oil would have been available for the few diesel locomotives then likely to exist. In those days Persia was in the Sterling Area so there was no need of dollars to buy oil from the USA - the main source during the war.

Until a couple of years before the Modernisation Plan the railways had always been profitable - even if only just! There had never been an expectation, even in the 1947 Act, that the railways would be in need of a continual subsidy. Until 1950/51 the railways’ accounts were in balance but from then onwards the surplus on operating account progressively declined. After 1953 the surplus became too small to meet capital charges and after 1955 there was a loss on an operating level. This is the background to the Modernisation Plan - the intention was to return to profitability. However by 1960 the annual loss on operating account had risen to £67.7 million which rose further to £86.9 million in 1961 so setting the scene for the first Beeching Report.

If the British Transport commission and the Railway Executive had grasped the future, instead of hanging on to the past, then the whole history of BR would have been very different. In all probability there would have been no need for a ‘Modernisation Plan’, or its immediate consequence the ‘Re-shaping of British Railways’ report, as change would have happened in a controlled manner over a longer period.

Congratulations if you have read this far!

Thank you, I have read this far, and a very interesting read it was too.

I suppose that you could have had the most technically astute and forward thinking BR imaginable, but would it have been enough to halt the march of the motor-car.

I suspect that Government would still have had to have grasped the nettle of subsidising socially necessary services eventually.
 

coppercapped

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The fact is that the GWR was directly told in 1947 to cease oil-firing experiments due to oil shortages and the lack of US dollars. Your retroactive claims don't change the fact that at the time there was at least some pushback from the government towards the railways consuming oil.
I just knew that somebody would bring up the story of the GWR oil-fired locomotives! While it certainly happened I am not convinced that the reason given for the abandonment of the trial is the whole story.

Don’t forget that at the time the two Ivatt / English Electric designed main line locomotives for the LMS were under construction. They were not cancelled because of a shortage of oil or foreign exchange. The first Bulleid designed 1Co-Co1 diesel main line locomotive for the Southern Railway was authorised in February 1947. This project was also not abandoned because of a shortage of oil or foreign exchange.

Following the GWR initiative the Government allocated suffiicent funds to allow the British railway companies to convert some 1,200 locomotives to save 20,000 tons of coal a week. In the event, only 37 of the GWR’s locomotives were converted as well as 56 locomotives from the other ‘Big Four’ companies.

Over this period, 1945 to 1948, there was considerable volatility in the price and supply of fuels as the war came to an end. Specifically the price of imported oil rose considerably since the original GWR decision had been made in 1945. Even though the price of coal had risen by more than two and a half times since the beginning of the war by 1946 the LMS had found that oil was costing 110% more than coal, or 1/6d more per engine mile.

What is a more plausible reason for the abandonment of the oil burning trials was that it was realised that for the same power output three to four times as much oil has to be burnt in steam locomotive firebox than if it were burnt in a diesel engine cylinder.

The conversion of more steam locomotives to oil burning was no longer economic. I suspect that, as Governments cannot admit that they have made mistakes, the reason given for the abandonment, the lack of foreign exchange, was to a certain extent a smoke screen. (I’ll get my coat…!)

It is also instructive to compare the UK with other countries in Western Europe and realise that the UK actually dieselised faster than most.
Why is it instructive? The situations were very, very different.
I also consider it highly dubious to claim that the railways could have been made to pay their way in light of the great changes in transportation that happened in the 1950s, not without trying to do Serpell thirty years earlier and encountering massive public opposition.
Where did I claim that the railways could have been made to pay their way? That was not even implied in the Modernisation Plan where paragraph 135 states:
An even more important result will be that each of the major groups of services will be made reasonably self-supporting and the element of cross-subsidisation which now exists between various groups of services will be considerably reduced. This does not mean that all the traffics will be covering the direct costs involvcd in their movement and will be contributing towards the common or overhead costs on the same scale; but there will be very few traffics that will not be covering at least the direct costs of their movement.The importance of this towards setting the Commission's finances on a healthier basis can hardly be exaggerated.
"...a healthier basis..." is not the same as 'profitable'.

For the record I consider a return to profitability would have been very unlikely if the railways remained constituted as they were as a purely inland transport organisation. The collapse in the domestic coal market following the Clean Air Acts took away a large section of their freight market; heavy industry rationalised, regrouped and shrunk as a result of technical changes and international competition; the rapidly expanding leisure market did not generally use the train; the continuing expansion of a road network optimised for cars continued a trend starting in the 1920s - the Kingston By-Pass was opened nearly a hundred years ago in 1927 after first being proposed before the First World War; the significant and rapid improvements in power and reliability of the internal combustion engine as result of wartime development was here to stay.

The outside world had changed but by the late 1950s the engineering of the railways (track, signalling, motive power, operations) remained largely as developed in Victorian times with the result that maintenance and operating costs were excessive because of the large numbers of staff required. Only the Southern Railway had made a serious attempt to move with the times after the First World War. All this was clear by 1948 but no serious attempt had been made to reduce costs or increase income.

I suggest that a possible route to profitability could have been the Japanese model where railway companies are property owners and generate much of their income from sites on and near railway stations and less, or none at all, from train operations. The British railways owned vast tracts of land in and near city centres which could have earned a much better income than simply being used as stabling sidings. Another route could have been evolving as an international travel operator, for example by the GWR building on its expertise in developing and handling holiday traffic in going for the package holiday market - a chocolate and cream DC3 anyone?

My point is that if the railways had been able to grasp the nettle in 1945 or earlier, and the then Government had adapted the political and commercial framework in which the railways operated to the new situation instead of just freezing the whole thing in aspic the financial situation would not have deteriorated as fast as it did. Money was available for investment, but not at the 2% average dividend rate the railways managed between the wars.

There were hardly a lot of UK loco manufacturers going bust in the 1945-55 period...
You missed the point. @ac600cw was suggesting in post #133 that because BR did not support the only integrated UK manufacturer it withered and so the only possible core of a domestic rolling stock industry disappeared.
Thank you, I have read this far, and a very interesting read it was too.

I suppose that you could have had the most technically astute and forward thinking BR imaginable, but would it have been enough to halt the march of the motor-car.

I suspect that Government would still have had to have grasped the nettle of subsidising socially necessary services eventually.
Thank you for your kind words. You are correct, the march of the motor car would not have been halted by the most astute railway. This is true in every country, except possibly North Korea...!

None of this means that in later days Government would not have subsidised commuter train operation if the alternative was the very expensive rebuilding of city centres to cope with the number of cars, but I can’t see any Government finding a convincing argument for subsiding any other type of journey.
 

eldomtom2

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Over this period, 1945 to 1948, there was considerable volatility in the price and supply of fuels as the war came to an end. Specifically the price of imported oil rose considerably since the original GWR decision had been made in 1945. Even though the price of coal had risen by more than two and a half times since the beginning of the war by 1946 the LMS had found that oil was costing 110% more than coal, or 1/6d more per engine mile.
So in other words, your claim about oil being plentiful was not the case. It makes perfect sense why the railways would want to avoid reliance on a fuel prone at the time to price swings and shortages.
I suspect that, as Governments cannot admit that they have made mistakes, the reason given for the abandonment, the lack of foreign exchange, was to a certain extent a smoke screen. (I’ll get my coat…!)
This is a rather conspiratorial explanation without any evidence.
Why is it instructive? The situations were very, very different.
I trust you will provide an explanation of why you feel the situations were different.
Where did I claim that the railways could have been made to pay their way? That was not even implied in the Modernisation Plan where paragraph 135 states:

"...a healthier basis..." is not the same as 'profitable'.
I would say the clear implication from that statement was that the railways could be made to at least pay all of their non-capital costs. Of course, this did not happen.
I suggest that a possible route to profitability could have been the Japanese model where railway companies are property owners and generate much of their income from sites on and near railway stations and less, or none at all, from train operations. The British railways owned vast tracts of land in and near city centres which could have earned a much better income than simply being used as stabling sidings.
It is highly unlikely that the private Japanese commuter railways would have been seen as a suitable model to run a national network on.
You missed the point. @ac600cw was suggesting in post #133 that because BR did not support the only integrated UK manufacturer it withered and so the only possible core of a domestic rolling stock industry disappeared.
Why do you feel that "the only possible core" of a domestic rolling stock industry was the manufacture of diesel engines?
but I can’t see any Government finding a convincing argument for subsiding any other type of journey.
Except that they did end up subsiding non-commuter journeys. Quite extensively.
 

coppercapped

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So in other words, your claim about oil being plentiful was not the case. It makes perfect sense why the railways would want to avoid reliance on a fuel prone at the time to price swings and shortages.
The single issue that provoked the GWR to trial burning oil in its locomotives was its inability in 1944/45 to obtain sufficient Welsh coal. As is well known by one or two people, the long deep grate of GWR’s locomotives and the draughting were optimised for specific Welsh coals and were unhappy with other fuels.

The volatility I referred to were essentially short term variations - the global figures show steady increases and support my statement that there was no shortage of oil. Figures published by the Department of Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy show this clearly, including the drop in coal output in 1944/5:

YearCoal output (millions of tonnes)Crude Oil imports (thousands of tonnes)
1943
202​
535​
1944
196​
695​
1945
186​
964​
1946
193​
2214​
1947
200​
2514​
1948
210​
4715​
1949
218​
6150​
1950
219​
9459​

I repeat, there was no shortage of oil.
This is a rather conspiratorial explanation without any evidence.
Well observed! Do you have a better explanation?
I trust you will provide an explanation of why you feel the situations were different.
You made the statement that the situation in Western Europe was ‘instructive’. If you wish to continue the debate you need to explain what you mean.
I would say the clear implication from that statement was that the railways could be made to at least pay all of their non-capital costs. Of course, this did not happen.
Yes. But the expectation for the Modernisation Plan was that the railways would once more 'pay their way' as had been the case until a couple of years previously, even if the Plan itself was more circumspect.
It is highly unlikely that the private Japanese commuter railways would have been seen as a suitable model to run a national network on.
Why not?
Why do you feel that "the only possible core" of a domestic rolling stock industry was the manufacture of diesel engines?
It seems that you have little knowledge of the industrial scene at the time. English Electric could build the whole product - prime mover, transmission, control circuits, body and running gear. It could build complete locomotives and supply all the electrical equipment that electric multiple units needed. 4SUBs anyone? Oh, by the way, if you needed them it could also design, build and supply jet bombers (Canberra), jet interceptors (Lightning), TV camera tubes (image orthicons, vidicons and Ledicons), TV transmitter tubes (klystrons) and magnetrons for radar, communications and cooking. Oh, and domestic fridges…

This was the basis of a domestic rolling stock industry which was not based on a steam locomotive history or used imported designs of diesel prime mover. It had all the necessary skills and knowledge within one organisation to compete on world markets with 'turn key' solutions.
Except that they did end up subsiding non-commuter journeys. Quite extensively.
Yes, but if the nettle had been grasped in 1945 the framework within which the railways operated would have been very different. Any subsidy found necessary for specific circumstances would very likely to have been needed later and have been smaller and not forced by the political fallout of the Modernisation Plan failing to come anywhere near meeting its financial goals.
 
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eldomtom2

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The single issue that provoked the GWR to trial burning oil in its locomotives was its inability in 1944/45 to obtain sufficient Welsh coal. As is well known by one or two people, the long deep grate of GWR’s locomotives and the draughting were optimised for specific Welsh coals and were unhappy with other fuels.

The volatility I referred to were essentially short term variations - the global figures show steady increases and support my statement that there was no shortage of oil. Figures published by the Department of Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy show this clearly, including the drop in coal output in 1944/5:

YearCoal output (millions of tonnes)Crude Oil imports (thousands of tonnes)
1943
202​
535​
1944
196​
695​
1945
186​
964​
1946
193​
2214​
1947
200​
2514​
1948
210​
4715​
1949
218​
6150​
1950
219​
9459​

I repeat, there was no shortage of oil.
Supply is not the sole determinant of price.
Well observed! Do you have a better explanation?
The official one?
You made the statement that the situation in Western Europe was ‘instructive’. If you wish to continue the debate you need to explain what you mean.
Do you disagree that Western European rail networks are the most obvious point of comparison for the British rail network?
Yes. But the expectation for the Modernisation Plan was that the railways would once more 'pay their way' as had been the case until a couple of years previously, even if the Plan itself was more circumspect.
And, of course, such an expectation proved to be unrealistic.
Do I have to explain why passenger-focused commuter railways, at their largest never bigger than the LBSCR, would not have been considered suitable models for the British national railway network, especially when the nationalised Japanese National Railways existed and would have been the obvious point of comparison if they looked towards Japan?
It seems that you have little knowledge of the industrial scene at the time. English Electric could build the whole product - prime mover, transmission, control circuits, body and running gear. It could build complete locomotives and supply all the electrical equipment that electric multiple units needed. 4SUBs anyone? Oh, by the way, if you needed them it could also design, build and supply jet bombers (Canberra), jet interceptors (Lightning), TV camera tubes (image orthicons, vidicons and Ledicons), TV transmitter tubes (klystrons) and magnetrons for radar, communications and cooking. Oh, and domestic fridges…

This was the basis of a domestic rolling stock industry which was not based on a steam locomotive history or used imported designs of diesel prime mover. It had all the necessary skills and knowledge within one organisation to compete on world markets with 'turn key' solutions.
What I fail to see is why the survival of the domestic rolling stock industry requires that they make everything in-house. None of the surviving multinational rolling stock manufacturers today make their own diesel engines.
Yes, but if the nettle had been grasped in 1945 the framework within which the railways operated would have been very different. Any subsidy found necessary for specific circumstances would very likely to have been needed later and have been smaller and not forced by the political fallout of the Modernisation Plan failing to come anywhere near meeting its financial goals.
That would rather depend on what "grasping the nettle" involved.
 

Magdalia

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Coming a bit late to the party…

…but looking back through the earlier posts in this interesting thread my impression is that, with the exception of the views of a couple of posters, the emphasis of the thread is on the implementation of electrification or dieselisation in terms of specific routes or types of rolling stock and electrification systems. This rather misses the crucial issues facing the newly nationalised railways after the end of the Second World War and which led to the Modernisation Plan and the first Beeching Report.

I would suggest that BR’s financial problems leading up to the 1955 Modernisation Plan and the contents and recommendations included in the plan were a direct result of the institutional issues in the structure and remit of the British Transport Commission (BTC) as set up by the 1947 Transport Act.
Welcome to the party!

I worked in bureaucracies for most of my career. When people blame institutional or organisational issues I'm always sceptical. The economic, technological and political imperatives will always drive a coach and horses through institutional or organisational obstacles.

Figures published by the Department of Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy show this clearly, including the drop in coal output in 1944/5:

YearCoal output (millions of tonnes)Crude Oil imports (thousands of tonnes)
1943
202​
535​
1944
196​
695​
1945
186​
964​
1946
193​
2214​
1947
200​
2514​
1948
210​
4715​
1949
218​
6150​
1950
219​
9459​
It is always essential to remember that, when the railways were nationalised, their most important business was moving lots of that coal from colliery to customer, frequently over long distances. Electricity generation and town gas production were located close to customers, and used up about a third of the total coal mined. The railways were the de facto national grid for both electricity and gas. The priority was to keep that coal moving.

English Electric could build the whole product - prime mover, transmission, control circuits, body and running gear. It could build complete locomotives
Yes, but it couldn't build a diesel locomotive that could move all of that coal more effectively than a 9F or 8F steam locomotive. That didn't come until the Brush Type 4 in 1962.


Oh, by the way, if you needed them it could also design, build and supply jet bombers (Canberra), jet interceptors (Lightning)
And, although World War 2 had ended, the UK economy was still on a war footing, and rearmament was a political imperative. With regard to diesel power unit research and development and production, marine application was the priority, especially meeting Admiralty requirements. Marine and rail traction requirements are quite different, and rail traction was lower priority.
 
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didcotdean

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Petrol rationing was brought to an end in 1950 only by accepting an arrangement put forward by Standard Oil of New Jersey / Anglo-American for them to supply all additional requirements of Britain for payment in sterling rather than dollars. Esso made great marketing material claiming to be the one most responsible for petrol becoming freely available although Texaco subsequently signed up to a similar deal. Petrol rationing probably would have come to an end in that year anyway because it was becoming politically toxic to be one of the few countries left with it plus the Suez Canal was reopening.
 

PMN1

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If the Overhead System is built for 1.5kV DC what is involved in modifying it for 25 kV AC?
 

randyrippley

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Yes, but it couldn't build a diesel locomotive that could move all of that coal more effectively than a 9F or 8F steam locomotive. That didn't come until the Brush Type 4 in 1962.
Not quite true
DP2 with the 2,700 bhp 16CSVT was put into service in 1962
And before that EE had offered a 2,500 bhp version of the engine for installation into the later class 40 batches, something that BR declined to do presumably because they were so obsessed with their "buy Sulzer" mindset
Given that EE were supplying overseas the 2,000 bhp 16SVT mk2 in 1955, it seems likely the 2,500 bhp engine would have been available by around 1957 if BR had wanted it.
 

Magdalia

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Not quite true
DP2 with the 2,700 bhp 16CSVT was put into service in 1962
And before that EE had offered a 2,500 bhp version of the engine for installation into the later class 40 batches, something that BR declined to do presumably because they were so obsessed with their "buy Sulzer" mindset
Given that EE were supplying overseas the 2,000 bhp 16SVT mk2 in 1955, it seems likely the 2,500 bhp engine would have been available by around 1957 if BR had wanted it.
EE would have needed to put the loco on Co-Co bogies and got the weight down to deliver an 8F/9F replacement, which they only achieved with DP2.

As you say, that entered service in 1962, the same year as the first Brush Type 4s.
 

randyrippley

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EE would have needed to put the loco on Co-Co bogies and got the weight down to deliver an 8F/9F replacement, which they only achieved with DP2.
They could have achieved that by putting the 2,500 16SVT into a Deltic body in 1957/8 or earlier
Remember DP1 went into traffic in 1955
And a 16SVT mk1 fitted into the Co-Co Ivatt diesels

EE had the ability to build it, but the problem was BR wanted something heavy to brake unfitted trains
 

ac6000cw

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EE would have needed to put the loco on Co-Co bogies and got the weight down to deliver an 8F/9F replacement, which they only achieved with DP2.
(Based on info from Wikipedia) A class 40 weighs about 135t (a few tons lighter than a 9F with tender). The starting tractive effort for the 40 is over 50,000 lbf, continuous is about 31,000 lbf at 18mph and power at rail is around 1500hp. So far, the only tractive effort figure I've found for a 9F is about 40,000 lbf so I'm guessing that is the maximum TE.

For the 9F, this is a graph from an official test run using 92013 over the S & C route from Appleby to Ais Gill, hauling 25 x 16t loaded mineral wagons plus dyno car, passenger brake and goods brake vans (total 641t trailing load).

The drawbar power doesn't look like it exceeds around 1400hp, the drawbar pull is under 20,000 lbf and the maximum speed on the (roughly 1% gradient) climbs is a bit under 30mph. The coal consumption was nearly 50 lbs per minute, so the fireman was working hard (basically shoveling about 1460 lbs of coal during the 30 minutes of the test).

Anyone got equivalent (to the 9F test scenario) performance results for a 40?

Even if a 40 couldn't match a 9F in good fettle with an enthusiastic crew, a pair of 20s would give you roughly 1.5 times more tractive effort with only a small increase in total loco weight.
 

Magdalia

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They could have achieved that by putting the 2,500 16SVT into a Deltic body in 1957/8 or earlier
The 16SVT was 2000hp, 2500hp only came with a 16CSVT.

EE could put the 16SVT in a Co-Co in 1958 but were not offering the BTC a 16CSVT loco on Co-Co bogies until DP2. In 1958 intercooling on a Co-Co only came with 12 cylinders, what became the EET3.

Where EE perhaps missed a trick was not offering to build 20 DP2s instead of D380-399 in 1962.

EE had the ability to build it, but the problem was BR wanted something heavy to brake unfitted trains
Indeed. The lack of brake force on the EET4 was a big downside. I'm not clear why EE never put brakes on the pony wheels, do I recall that they are articulated in some way which makes that difficult?

a pair of 20s would give you roughly 1.5 times more tractive effort with only a small increase in total loco weight.
BR did end up with this solution in 1967, and a pair of EET1s could have been delivered in 1957. It would have been very expensive, though the costs could probably have been reduced a bit by not putting in the driver's controls for nose end running to make an articulated Bo-Bo+Bo-Bo loco with two 8SVTs.
 

randyrippley

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The 16SVT was 2000hp, 2500hp only came with a 16CSVT.

EE could put the 16SVT in a Co-Co in 1958 but were not offering the BTC a 16CSVT loco on Co-Co bogies until DP2. In 1958 intercooling on a Co-Co only came with 12 cylinders, what became the EET3.

Where EE perhaps missed a trick was not offering to build 20 DP2s instead of D380-399 in 1962.


Indeed. The lack of brake force on the EET4 was a big downside. I'm not clear why EE never put brakes on the pony wheels, do I recall that they are articulated in some way which makes that difficult?


BR did end up with this solution in 1967, and a pair of EET1s could have been delivered in 1957. It would have been very expensive, though the costs could probably have been reduced a bit by not putting in the driver's controls for nose end running to make an articulated Bo-Bo+Bo-Bo loco with two 8SVTs.
EE were clearly offering by 1958 a 2500hp engine to fit into the class 40. Whether that is intercooled or not is uncertain, but it was offered, BTC wanted it, BR ignored it. It rather seems to me it was that intransigence from BR that forced EE to build DP2 to try and break the pro-Sulzer mindset within BR.
But the fact remains that by the late 1950s EE had both a suitable engine and the Deltic bodyshell available and they could have been paired much earlier


Re the brakes, I can only hazard a guess that as the pony truck would have been unsprung the extra weight of brakes would have caused uncontrolled pitching and would have been a hammerblow risk. Besides which, figures I've seen somewhere in the past suggested they didn't carry much weight anyway so the added braking force wouldn't have been significant.
 

Magdalia

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But the fact remains that by the late 1950s EE had both a suitable engine and the Deltic bodyshell available
But EE hadn't joined them together on Co-Co bogies.

The first production Deltic was in 1961, and the first EET3s were just delivered before the end of 1960. These were the first locos for BR on EE's Co-Co bogie, which was not a success at first, both the Deltics and the EET3s having to be given rectification work. Even if what you suggest was feasible, it wouldn't have happened any more quickly than 1961, particularly given that EE must have had some constraints on design resources.
 
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