December 2023 Timetable Change

[mcnw35282]

I know Northern were proposing to run a peak only Liverpool to Stalybridge service calling all stations except Patricroft and Eccles using 4 car class 331s. The Wigan NW to Manchester Vic peak services would be retimed to call Patricroft and Eccles in both directions. I'm not sure if this is still planned for December.

When you say peak only...what exactly do you mean?

 

[td97]

Northern have released their summary for the Dec change

May Timetable Changes

Northern | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

www.northernrailway.co.uk

"Blackpool North – Manchester Airport: On quieter services, some trains will run as 4 carriages instead of 6."

So a single 4 coach 331 rather than a pair of 3 coach units or planned to be a 319?

Likewise for Liverpool - Manchester Airport stoppers, although a 4 coach 331 doesn't offer that many more seats than a 323 due to the more low density layout.

Very disappointing. One moment, Northern are celebrating Bolton to Piccadilly as their 3rd largest commuter flow, next they're downgrading capacity. I wonder which diagrams Northern class as "quieter".

 

[Trainguy34]

Is there a link to the timetable change on the southeastern website

 

[JonathanH]

Is there a link to the timetable change on the southeastern website

No. Look at Real Time Trains, or other data sites, for the service at stations on the Southeastern network on a date after 11 December.

 

[Trainguy34]

No. Look at RTT, or other data sites, for the service at stations on the Southeastern network on a date after 11 December.

Perfect, thanks.

 

[Bevan Price]

deleted

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2023 ==

"Blackpool North – Manchester Airport: On quieter services, some trains will run as 4 carriages instead of 6."

So a single 4 coach 331 rather than a pair of 3 coach units or planned to be a 319?

Likewise for Liverpool - Manchester Airport stoppers, although a 4 coach 331 doesn't offer that many more seats than a 323 due to the more low density layout.

Liverpool - Manchester Airport are currently almost all 3 coach 323s or 331s except on Sundays, and often overcrowded even at off-peak hours. Definitely needs a more frequent service, or bigger trains. .

 

[SC318250]

Mentioned upthread when the ScotRail services went in on Wednesday.

Along with the Glasgow to Aberdeen changes.

Apologies I thought it only had been uploaded this morning.

 

[Kite159]

deleted

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2023 ==


Liverpool - Manchester Airport are currently almost all 3 coach 323s or 331s except on Sundays, and often overcrowded even at off-peak hours. Definitely needs a more frequent service, or bigger trains. .

Bringing back the Warrington Bank Quay stoppers would probably help with loadings as it gives the stations between Huyton & Earlestown 2tph (like they had pre Covid) (3tph for Lea Green in the hours TPE runs).

 

[greaterangrier]

I think that the 08:11 from Clacton on Sea to London Liverpool Street has become 2 minutes earlier, maybe to allow a Greater Anglia employee a nicer connection to Norwich, as I can’t find any other explanation. It is important to improve operational efficiency though and increase employee productivity and satisfaction as well so a win all around I think!

Realtime Trains | 1N29 0809 Clacton-on-Sea to London Liverpool Street | 11/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 1N29 0809 departure from Clacton-on-Sea to London Liverpool Street on 11/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It is important [ ] increase employee productivity and satisfaction as well so a win all around I think!

Not at the expense of customer connections or journey times it isn't, but this should do no harm.

 

[Halish Railway]

Having another look at the timetable, it seems that Northern HAVE indeed changed the diagraming of Airedale and Wharfedale line services.

The change is how services are interworked at Leeds. Currently arrivals from Ilkley mostly go to Skipton, those from Bradford go to Ilkley and from Skipton to Bradford. As far as I can make it out, this is being changed to Bradford arrivals going straight back to Bradford, Ilkley arrivals going to Skipton and Skipton arrivals going to Ilkley. The rest of the interworking remains as is, but should guarantee four car services on Leeds to Ilkley and Skipton services.

The two issues I can see is that both Skipton and Ilkley services share the same platform at Leeds at many different times of the day, e.g. The 14:56 to Skipton leaves from platform 5B and the following 15:03 to Ilkley leaves from 5C, so I can foresee people getting on the wrong train. The other issue is that the services seem to be leaving from completely random platforms, often from completely different sides of the station. Granted, this is already the case with every fourth Ilkley train leaving from platform 10 to accommodate an Azuma arriving into platform 6 from Harrogate, but this now seems to happen much more in the new timetable. Surely this must win an award for the greatest number of platforms a service departs from within a given station?

Linked is a list of departures from Leeds to Ilkley to demonstrate my point: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...23-12-21/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

EDIT: I've just noticed that the services from 13:03 to 15:03 ascend one-by-one from platform 1 to platform 5!

 

[hexagon789]

Apologies I thought it only had been uploaded this morning.

I think some people were hovering waiting for the uploads!

 

[dk1]

As expected the Stansted Express is back to a 15 minute frequency all day 7 days a week with alternate trains only stopping at Harlow or Bishop Stortford. All trains serve Tottenham Hale of course.

 

[Benjwri]

Ilkley services share the same platform at Leeds at many different times of the day, e.g. The 14:56 to Skipton leaves from platform 5B and the following 15:03 to Ilkley leaves from 5C, so I can foresee people getting on the wrong train.

At least when I went on a service like this from Leeds pre Covid the sharing of platforms was very common, and the staff were used to it and very good at making sure this didn’t happen. I don’t think it’ll be too much of an issue now.

 

[Adam0984]

At least when I went on a service like this from Leeds pre Covid the sharing of platforms was very common, and the staff were used to it and very good at making sure this didn’t happen. I don’t think it’ll be too much of an issue now.

It all depends on how the trains line up with the station platform signage, a 4 car train on 5C can have the front next to the 5B sign

 

[YorksLad12]

It all depends on how the trains line up with the station platform signage, a 4 car train on 5C can have the front next to the 5B sign

Don’t quote me (!) but I think that on the through lines at Leeds, trains are assumed to straddle adjacent sub-platforms. Something on 12C will extend back to 12D, there won’t be anything on 12B but there might be on 12A. I never know if the platform signs line up with the front of the train or the middle. Drivers don’t know either - they’re looking for the signals. So near enough is good enough, depending on the length of the train and what else is happening.

 

[Adam0984]

Don’t quote me (!) but I think that on the through lines at Leeds, trains are assumed to straddle adjacent sub-platforms. Something on 12C will extend back to 12D, there won’t be anything on 12B but there might be on 12A. I never know if the platform signs line up with the front of the train or the middle. Drivers don’t know either - they’re looking for the signals. So near enough is good enough, depending on the length of the train and what else is happening.

If you take 11 for example a Doncaster train will be advertised as 11D but the 4 car stop board will stop the train nicely behind the mid platform signal so is in fact on 11C (and a bit of D)

 

[Kite159]

The two issues I can see is that both Skipton and Ilkley services share the same platform at Leeds at many different times of the day, e.g. The 14:56 to Skipton leaves from platform 5B and the following 15:03 to Ilkley leaves from 5C, so I can foresee people getting on the wrong train

That will easily be resolved by keeping the 15:03 locked up before the 14:56 departs. Similar to what happens in Manchester Pic when two trains share the same platform. Only issue is when the Skipton train gets delayed it will delay the Ilkley train

 

[BJames]

1H82, the 1707 Liv St to Ely, has Cambridge omitted from GBTT for the next timetable period.. When this was done on the overtime ban days the other week it wasn't showing as a call on the boards at Liverpool Street. From a quick perusal it's the only one to have this omitted and all the other services call at Cambridge as normal. Is this really not intended as a passenger stop? https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L19135/2023-12-19/detailed

 

[Watershed]

1H82, the 1707 Liv St to Ely, has Cambridge omitted from GBTT for the next timetable period.. When this was done on the overtime ban days the other week it wasn't showing as a call on the boards at Liverpool Street. From a quick perusal it's the only one to have this omitted and all the other services call at Cambridge as normal. Is this really not intended as a passenger stop? https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L19135/2023-12-19/detailed

It will just be a mistake. When a train has any operational “activity code” added at a call (such as detach, in this case), the responsible planner needs to add the ‘public call’ activity code (T) to ensure it remains an advertised public call. It otherwise defaults to being unadvertised.

 

[MikeWM]

1H82, the 1707 Liv St to Ely, has Cambridge omitted from GBTT for the next timetable period.

Both the 1707 and the 1807 still don't have timetabled Cambridge North stops after December. Which continues the pattern since the May change, where despite the stops not being in the timetable they are nevertheless regularly VARed a week or two beforehand to stop (eg. as they were last week, and are again this week, but not - yet - for the next week). But, not always, so unfortunately it can't be relied upon - which is quite irritating, as the 1707 fills in a gap in northbound services from CMB around 1820, just about the time I usually want to travel.

I was rather hoping they'd have sorted out whether these were supposed to stop or not in the December timetable. Appears not

 

[swr444]

Looks like the SWR xx50 Waterloo to Salisbury service is returning in December

 

[Kite159]

Looks like the SWR xx50 Waterloo to Salisbury service is returning in December

Woohoo

No more 30 minute festers at Basingstoke/Andover when I come back from London and the connection to what would be the XX:50 is the XX:20 Exeter train.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Disappointed to see that Chiltern seem to still be running just 1tph between London and Birmingham most of the day at weekends, despite regular complaints about chronic overcrowding.

 

[stan claire]

"Blackpool North – Manchester Airport: On quieter services, some trains will run as 4 carriages instead of 6."

So a single 4 coach 331 rather than a pair of 3 coach units or planned to be a 319?

Likewise for Liverpool - Manchester Airport stoppers, although a 4 coach 331 doesn't offer that many more seats than a 323 due to the more low density layout.

From previous threads I've read apparently they're swapping 12 331/0s from the north west for 12 331/1s from the north east to replace the 319s, and then the 323s from the West Midlands will be operating all over? I'm hoping they keep the Manchester to Blackpool service as 331s considering the lower top speed of the 323s (it's 10mph less but still annoying) unless they plan on modifying the 323s to reach 100mph but I highly doubt they will do. The only route from Bolton that I'd accept 323s on is the local stopper between Southport (probably changed to Wigan NW once electrified) and Stalybridge as the distance between stations is so close that you can't exactly reach such speed.
I've moaned about this in the past but 331s have wider vestibules and doorways for both additional luggage space and standing room. The single seats on a 323 next to the toilet would be nice to not have to sit next to someone when the train is busy though! Standing room would be way more cramped though as the doorways didn't seem as wide last time I was on one. As a regular user of the Airport to Blackpool service I have to admit I would like the variety though as the 331s have gotten a bit of the same thing since they've solely operated the line since around 2021. I'll be commuting to education by train soon and wouldn't want to be packed in like sardines but denser seating capacity on the 323s (with 3+2 seating) would be a lot nicer but I like the tables on the 331s

Very disappointing. One moment, Northern are celebrating Bolton to Piccadilly as their 3rd largest commuter flow, next they're downgrading capacity. I wonder which diagrams Northern class as "quieter".

Yeah I did read about that, surely if trains are overcrowded then people will stop using the train to commute? I'm guessing the diagrams that are timed so the 4 car avoids clashing with peak times (so in the morning it'll operate a service from Manchester Airport to Blackpool and then in the evening it runs from Blackpool to Manchester Airport going against the flow of commuters)
But another thing... I know this is probably impossible at most other stations on the line but when Buckshaw Parkway station opened it was opened with the possibility of 8 car trains stopping there in the future: https://www.railengineer.co.uk/buck...omes-the-latest-addition-to-the-rail-network/

The platforms are 150m long to allow 6-car formations to use the station. The planning permissions and construction details permit future extension for 8-cars.

This could potentially allow for /1+/1 formations in the future if infrastructure at other stations is suitable and there are enough spare units to cover for the lack on other services. I've seen double 319s on Northern with the rear half locked out before but it could work on this line. The ASDO of the 331s would also prove very useful in this scenario. The only issues I can think of are the platforms at Chorley being unsuitable for extension (lift installation one end, bridge another) and Manchester Piccadilly platform 14 being on too much of a curve to see the full train end to end - I know Avanti services diverted via Manchester have had to run through non-stop as the curve prevents the trains being dispatched safely

Liverpool - Manchester Airport are currently almost all 3 coach 323s or 331s except on Sundays, and often overcrowded even at off-peak hours. Definitely needs a more frequent service, or bigger trains.

Newton-le-Willows station currently only has the capacity for 4 cars currently, correct? I know they're planning to extend the platforms at a lot of their stations (https://media.northernrailway.co.uk...ers-thanks-to-gbp-60m-platform-extension-work) and NLW will undoubtedly be included with the frequency of services so potentially they could use 6 car trains on that line once the platforms are long enough to accommodate them.

 

[Ianigsy]

Bringing back the Warrington Bank Quay stoppers would probably help with loadings as it gives the stations between Huyton & Earlestown 2tph (like they had pre Covid) (3tph for Lea Green in the hours TPE runs).

The problem on that line seems to be that the Northern service got trimmed back in the expectation that TPE would pick up enough most of the Lea Green and Newton punters, and then the TPE service was cut with two intermediate stops between Liverpool and Manchester rather than one, plus the pathing time at Victoria.

As somebody who makes a return trip more or less monthly between Leeds and Birkenhead, I’d say that they frequency matters. As things stand, I can catch a 1630 train from Leeds and be in Lime Street for 6 and with family for 6.30. One of the post-Covid timetables had the Liverpool trains leaving Leeds at xx15, which meant not leaving Leeds until 1715 and arriving into Liverpool just before 7 as Merseyrail are starting to run their evening timetable so I didn’t get to Birkenhead until a full hour later than I do at the moment.

 

[Horizon22]

I think that the 08:11 from Clacton on Sea to London Liverpool Street has become 2 minutes earlier, maybe to allow a Greater Anglia employee a nicer connection to Norwich, as I can’t find any other explanation. It is important to improve operational efficiency though and increase employee productivity and satisfaction as well so a win all around I think!

Realtime Trains | 1N29 0809 Clacton-on-Sea to London Liverpool Street | 11/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 1N29 0809 departure from Clacton-on-Sea to London Liverpool Street on 11/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

It's only moving the connection time from 3 to 4 minutes at Colchester if that is the reason - hardly a suitable connection time but maybe possible in a rush!

 

[Bevan Price]

Bringing back the Warrington Bank Quay stoppers would probably help with loadings as it gives the stations between Huyton & Earlestown 2tph (like they had pre Covid) (3tph for Lea Green in the hours TPE runs).

It would be much more useful if that second train ran to/from Manchester rather than Warrington Bank Quay. Very few passengers used that service between Earlestown and Warrington (and I saw lots of them whilst photographing at Winwick).

 

[Blindtraveler]

Disappointed to see that southeastern's December timetable has gone in yet again without restoring the second hourly faversham London high speed service, even out with school holidays the existing ones are getting really rather busy and given the premium that the services command in terms of ticket prices I don't necessarily think it's acceptable for the train to be uncomfortably full we've at least a couple of standing pax from strood or Gravesend or sometimes further back

 

[MikeWM]

It would be much more useful if that second train ran to/from Manchester rather than Warrington Bank Quay. Very few passengers used that service between Earlestown and Warrington (and I saw lots of them whilst photographing at Winwick).

Agreed - the one time I got this from Bank Quay I think I was the only person on the train for the first part of the journey.

Or maybe route it to Wigan - though maybe there aren't the paths on the WCML for that?

Either way though, the stations between Huyton and NewtonLW need and deserve their second hourly train back.