The Stadler T&W units have a decent number of UK suppliers involved.
Nothing stopping Stadler from going for a joint venture with another manufacturer.
It also doesn't all have to go to one manufacturer.
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Northern Tender for up to 450 units
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It also doesn't all have to go to one manufacturer.
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xotGD
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Split the order five ways, with five incompatible designs.
py_megapixel
Established Member
It could be multiple manufacturers building the same design (e.g. Networkers split between Metro-Cammel and BREL, or more recently the NS Sprinter Lighttrain split between Siemens and Bombardier) or multiple manufacturers cooperating to deliver a single finished product (e.g. 333s with CAF bodies and Siemens traction equipment, M5000s built by Bombardier with Vossloh-Kiepe traction equipment, Berlin S-bahn trains built by a Stadler-Siemens joint venture and the HS2 order going to a Hitachi-Alstom joint venture).
brad465
Veteran Member
The front page of the RAIL edition that's just come out on the App front pages this story, it talks about the 450 unit-sized order, but the subsequent article makes no suggestion that it maybe acting on behalf of other operators to share out the order, although it does refer to the Chiltern tender separately.
Trainbike46
Established Member
Given that the 2 types of civity northern has (195 DMU and 331 EMU) can't couple to each other, that seems rather unlikely, though if northern thought it was important and put it in the tender requirements I'm sure a solution could be found. Though it's probably more practical to just keep the civities and the new stock separate, it would still be a massive reduction in number of types of rolling stock
jonesy3001
Established Member
They can couple up when the 331 pantograph is down, one got it's window smashed on the bolton line and the only train available was a 195.
Trainbike46
Established Member
Sorry, I wasn't clear. They can couple in a rescue capability, but cannot work in multiple in passenger service
Which is hardly unusual for diesel and electric units. Unless there’s a specific service demand, there’s not much call for them to do so.
There isn't a clear intention in the contract notice for it to be shared out amongst other operators. It does include that each phase may have a different ROSCO/owner of the train. I can imagine procurement types being worried about challenges from organisations who would have bid differently if they knew earlier it was intention to be across industry. It's possible but seems unusual particularly given the notices from other operators.
It's a framework agreement over 8 years so up to either 2032 or 2033. Framework agreements often have a maximum far above the intended use as it avoids having to rerun the process if circumstances change. The up to 450 units would give scope to replace all existing fleet and a bit more if there was ever a financial case to do so.
But the politician gets a double quick win from ordering a British made train, whereas the good news of an order will be drowned out by killing a factory.
Fleet introduction issues will be beyond quick win timescales and can be blamed on the companies involved.
Because killing British factories doesn’t go down well
Open tenders have social value and other things that allow bias to local production. Otherwise why would CAF/Siemens have bothered with the significant bother of setting up factories here?
Local Authorities aren’t national government and aren’t the same target for opposition. And there was a fuss about Nexus not buying local wasn’t there?
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
What will be the time period you envisage, when such order placement will be made?
Davester50
Member
With the LNER 5 car Electrics being hauled by the Diesel Electric ones when diverted via Carlisle, and the increasing amount of electrification, maybe this is the order that changes that?
Not sure I understand your question.
but to clarify I mean a British made order gives them two quick wins - promise of new trains and jobs.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
To clarify, I was asking what year you thought that order for these units would be placed, not the benefit that the Government in power when this occurs would so accrue.
Whenever the Treasury can be persuaded to lever open their wallet!
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
If you had any power of position in the Treasury and were mindful of the rail strikes that now seem part of life (sometimes referred to as "the Never-Ending Story") and making life "difficult" for the travelling public, would you decide that available finance would be better directed on other projects.
jonesy3001
Established Member
Who do you think will get the contract when/if the announcement is made?
Personally I think CAF will get it.
Personally I think CAF will get it.
Although the argument can also be made for “we’re doing our bit to modernise the railway - now let the unions match it”. (Not saying that that’s my POV!)
does that include the 333's and 170s too? Would be a total shame to them go?Do you have the link for the youtube video please?
All of the fleet apart from the CAF units are to be replaced, probably starting with the 150s first.
Northern Tender for up to 450 units
Mod Note: Posts #1 - #83 originally in this thread This was published on Friday afternoon for a new tender for 450 units for northern. https://www.find-tender.service.gov.uk/Notice/022810-2023 The objective of this procurement is to enter into a framework agreement with a single supplier for...www.railforums.co.uk
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If the rumour's of a "Surprise Bidder" are true then I'd say won't be CAF
jonesy3001
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Please post in this thread.
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Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
How long have such rumours been in circulation?
pokemonsuper9
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Then again we are only in the early stages of this bid so we may not even see the first batch of new trains come into service until around 2030 at the earliest. Probably by then, both the 333's and 170's will be nearing the end of their working lives so I guess it makes sense to look at replacements now
RailWonderer
Established Member
Somebody on here (Neptune) claims to work in the DfT and somewhere up thread mentioned it. My guess would be Talgo, as they have not built anything for the UK yet.
Soon enough though this bidding process will be public and we will all know, not sure why it's been behind closed doors this long anyway.
RobShipway
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Not sure if it is still the case I believe that Talgo are or where interested in building a factory here should they get a large enough order as it would make more sense, than trying to transport the trains from Spain. This is something that Talgo have had an eye on doing for a long while as per the comment below from the Talgo Wiki page:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talgo.
"In recent decades, Talgo has made a renewed effort to expand its presence internationally. During the late 2010s, Talgo made arrangements to establish a new train manufacturing site in the United Kingdom in response to orders for its trains having been placed by multiple British railway operators.[9][10] In the early 2020s, the company opted to invested in new manufacturing facilities in India with the aiming of securing sizable orders from across the country's highly-trafficked railways."
I believe there was a comment about this also, when Michael Portillo did a Great Continental Railway Journeys episode in Spain, where he visited a Talgo factory.
Also mentioned here https://zenoot.com/2019/11/04/talgos-new-uk-train-factory-a-step-closer/
But like CAF and Hitachi, the bodyworks building could still take place in Spain, but with final assembly here in the UK.
Which would make sense for the DfT. Why award an order to one of the many existing companies (so it's not as if you couldn't have a reasonable level of competition!) with a factory here in the UK when you could award it to someone else and have them build yet another new factory at the same time that one of the existing factories ends up being closed down due to lack of orders...
Brilliant industrial strategy!
Trainbike46
Established Member
Are any UK factories acutally at risk of closure?
We have:
Alstom Derby - won't close due to HS2 contract
Hitachi Newton Aycliffe - won't close due to HS2 contract
Siemens Goole - won't close if further LU orders happen
CAF Newport - Focused on producing for export now, isn't it?
Of course, they would employ more people if they had more orders, but closure isn't on the cards for any of them, unless I've missed something. So in that context another new factory could look better for the government
I don't know Talgo's portfolio particularly well, but aren't most of their trains long, high-speed designs of some sort? I wonder, if they are one of the bidders, what sort of product they would be offering as neither long (in the sense of many carrriages) nor high-speed are good descriptors for the majority of Northern's services.
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