London Buses Discussion

[MasterSpenny]

Anybody hoping for the short length Cities in London might be disappointed. The batch of BYD / ADL (10.3m) for routes 363 and C3 has been changed to Wrightbus StreetDeck Electroliners and are currently being built for those routes:
3031-40 - Route C3
3041-7 - Route 363

Transport UK London Bus | The Bus Forum

While in the introduction day the staff showed us some powerpoint slides showing what it is like working in the company. In one slide it showed the future of travel london which was.. Ex

tangytango.proboards.com

 

[MotCO]

Anybody hoping for the short length Cities in London might be a disappointed. The batch of BYD / ADL (10.3m) for routes 363 and C3 has been changed to Wrightbus StreetDeck Electroliners and are currently being built for those routes:
3031-40 - Route C3
3041-7 - Route 363

Transport UK London Bus | The Bus Forum

While in the introduction day the staff showed us some powerpoint slides showing what it is like working in the company. In one slide it showed the future of travel london which was.. Ex

tangytango.proboards.com

The same blog identifies the reason being that ADL's order book is overflowing and Wright's isn't so full. Surprised they didn't turn to Switch if looking for quicker orders

 

[MasterSpenny]

From BLOTW (buslistsontheweb.co.uk), the first of route 417’s Electroliners:

ES038 - LV23ZCA
ES039 - LV23ZCE
ES040 - LV23ZCF
ES041 - LV23ZCJ
ES042 - LV23ZCK
ES043 - LV23ZCL
ES044 - LV23ZCN
ES045 - LV23ZCO
ES046 - LV23ZCT

All of the above are registered with the DVLA, ES047-50 should be registered in due course.

 

[Man of Kent]

Bus/tram passenger trips per day went up from 2.4 million in 2000 to 3.7 million in 2019. That's an increase of 54%, which is much greater than the increase in population over that time.

While it is impressive, those ridership figures have also been skewed by the shortening of routes and the introduction of the Hopper fare. A September 2019 TfL press release says that more than 450,000 hops were being made daily.
(the full release is far too long to reproduce but can be found here https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/p...y-of-the-mayor-s-bus-hopper-fare-since-launch).

I can recall a French city (possibly Orleans) claiming that its new tram system had lifted public transport passenger numbers by 1/3rd, conveniently ignoring the fact that the bus network had been restructured as a feeder to the tramway, and therefore many passengers lost direct journeys for one that needed a change on route, meaning that they were counted twice. (This is a sleight of hand I expect to see used in the Greater Manchester area in due course).

 

[johncrossley]

While it is impressive, those ridership figures have also been skewed by the shortening of routes and the introduction of the Hopper fare. A September 2019 TfL press release says that more than 450,000 hops were being made daily.
(the full release is far too long to reproduce but can be found here https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/p...y-of-the-mayor-s-bus-hopper-fare-since-launch).

If some people were previously reluctant to change buses because of the double charging then it is legitimate to claim credit for that. Of course, double charging should never have been done in the first place, but for the purposes of comparing trip numbers to the past you have to be consistent and count changes of bus as extra trips. Measuring by passenger-km gets around this issue. The most important statistic is the car mode share, as that allows for bus trips being replaced by bike or rail. That went down from 48% in 2000 to 37% in 2019.

 

[Goldfish62]

The same blog identifies the reason being that ADL's order book is overflowing and Wright's isn't so full. Surprised they didn't turn to Switch if looking for quicker orders

I'm surprised. Wrightbus didn't bother going to Coach & Bus Expo last year because they had a full order book, and seem to have orders from here, there and everywhere at the moment.

Who's ordering from ADL, at least in terms of electric? There's BYDs for GoAhead London, NXWM and TfGM, plus all-E400EVs for Oxford (both operators?), but I can't think of anything else offhand. Anyone ordered BYD E200s recently? First have moved to Wrightbus and Stagecoach to Volvo.

 

[gka472l]

From BLOTW (buslistsontheweb.co.uk), the first of route 417’s Electroliners:

ES038 - LV23ZCA
ES039 - LV23ZCE
ES040 - LV23ZCF
ES041 - LV23ZCJ
ES042 - LV23ZCK
ES043 - LV23ZCL
ES044 - LV23ZCN
ES045 - LV23ZCO
ES046 - LV23ZCT

All of the above are registered with the DVLA, ES047-50 should be registered in due course.

ES038 was at Birkenhead ferry terminal on delivery a few days ago ...

 

[MasterSpenny]

Sullivan doesn’t seem to be operating route W9 well, 61% of buses at peak are on time

http://bus.data.tfl.gov.uk/boroughreports/routes/performance-route-W9.pdf

 

[MotCO]

Sullivan doesn’t seem to be operating route W9 well, 61% of buses at peak are on time

http://bus.data.tfl.gov.uk/boroughreports/routes/performance-route-W9.pdf

And only 80% of journeys are run. Chronic congestion or poor delivery?

 

[Surreyman]

I'm surprised. Wrightbus didn't bother going to Coach & Bus Expo last year because they had a full order book, and seem to have orders from here, there and everywhere at the moment.

Who's ordering from ADL, at least in terms of electric? There's BYDs for GoAhead London, NXWM and TfGM, plus all-E400EVs for Oxford (both operators?), but I can't think of anything else offhand. Anyone ordered BYD E200s recently? First have moved to Wrightbus and Stagecoach to Volvo.

I wonder if ADL have in fact scaled back their production capacity? The Guildford chassis plant closed during Covid, they have probably improved assembly 'efficiency' at Falkirk & Scarborough to compensate, maybe margin is more important than volume these days?

 

[MotCO]

I wonder if ADL have in fact scaled back their production capacity? The Guildford chassis plant closed during Covid, they have probably improved assembly 'efficiency' at Falkirk & Scarborough to compensate, maybe margin is more important than volume these days?

Maybe it's part of the transition away from BYD chassis to in-house ADL EV chassis. Maybe the BYD's have finished, but the in-house is not quite ready?

 

[TWBG]

Sullivan doesn’t seem to be operating route W9 well, 61% of buses at peak are on time

http://bus.data.tfl.gov.uk/boroughreports/routes/performance-route-W9.pdf

The route will be retendered in 2025 or 2027, hopefully another operator like Metroline will improve it greatly

 

[Busaholic]

The route will be retendered in 2025 or 2027, hopefully another operator like Metroline will improve it greatly

That's a long time away!

 

[Goldfish62]

The route will be retendered in 2025 or 2027, hopefully another operator like Metroline will improve it greatly

I think we can be reasonably certain it won't qualify for a two year extension!

 

[Busaholic]

I think we can be reasonably certain it won't qualify for a two year extension!

Have Sullivan overstretched themselves, as happened a lot with smaller companies in the early years of route tendering (route 60, anyone?)?

 

[MasterSpenny]

And only 80% of journeys are run. Chronic congestion or poor delivery?

Personally I think its down to how messy Sullivan’s allocation is.
Route 217: is usually 90% in terms of allocated buses, when it’s not full MMC operation its the 12/13 reg Enviro400s. Route 298: They try to put deckers on it when possible (much like how today its fully E)
Routes 299, 389 and 399: Usually the ones not crosslinked are using route 298 Enviro200s and ex Abellio. The crosslinked working is always SL operated.
Route 327: has been an AE for almost a year - the StreetLite allocated SL98 hasn’t been out since September.
Route 549: usually one of route W9s MMCs instead of one of the ex Abellio ones
AE14, SL93 and SL96-8 are missing so summed up in a nutshell a small operator operating about 6 SD routes and having missing buses can cause dents in service

 

[Goldfish62]

And only 80% of journeys are run. Chronic congestion or poor delivery?

Looking at the latest operator league tables Sullivan's are firmly at the bottom:

Bus operator league tables

League tables showing how bus operators compare against each other

tfl.gov.uk

The minimum standard for their low frequency routes is 85.1% on time while Sullivan's achieved 63.0%, a staggering variance of - 22.1%. Next worst was Uno with a variance of - 4.6%. The network average variance is - 0.7%.

Sullivan's is also bottom for its one high frequency route with an EWT of 3.61 min against the minimum performance standard of 1.10 min.

You won't find a Sullivan's bus with a full working set of blinds. Many are running around with just a bit of paper in the windscreen.

There are clearly many issues.

 

[MPW]

Getting on the bus at London Bridge towards The City this morning and had some thoughts:
1. has there ever been consideration for installing fare gates at the bus station so ppl can walk straight on to the bus. There are long queues of people waiting for the doors to open as it's also where drivers take a break at the end of the route. There are already physical barriers on one side and plenty of space for non-passengers to go around. I can't think where else it might be helpful but imagine there are bus stations at terminal stations where it could help. Obviously not for the entire route.

2. Why was the station not built with higher platforms to ease boarding? Its still relatively new

3. I feel for the drivers having tens of people impatiently staring at them during their allocated breaks! At least when I remember not to be impatient myself.

 

[londonteacher]

has there ever been consideration for installing fare gates at the bus station so ppl can walk straight on to the bus. There are long queues of people waiting for the doors to open as it's also where drivers take a break at the end of the route. There are already physical barriers on one side and plenty of space for non-passengers to go around. I can't think where else it might be helpful but imagine there are bus stations at terminal stations where it could help. Obviously not for the entire route.

Fare evasion would be extremely high with this approach.

Also the queues wouldn’t change, they would just move.

 

[Edsmith]

Getting on the bus at London Bridge towards The City this morning and had some thoughts:
1. has there ever been consideration for installing fare gates at the bus station so ppl can walk straight on to the bus. There are long queues of people waiting for the doors to open as it's also where drivers take a break at the end of the route. There are already physical barriers on one side and plenty of space for non-passengers to go around. I can't think where else it might be helpful but imagine there are bus stations at terminal stations where it could help. Obviously not for the entire route.

2. Why was the station not built with higher platforms to ease boarding? Its still relatively new

3. I feel for the drivers having tens of people impatiently staring at them during their allocated breaks! At least when I remember not to be impatient myself.

Can't see gates being viable and fare dodgers will jump over them if there's no staff present...........most people tend to be staring at their phones nowadays.

 

[MPW]

Fare evasion would be extremely high with this approach.

Also the queues wouldn’t change, they would just move.

The queues would change because people could just tap in when they get there then wait on other side of fare gate. Rather than all tapping in at same time when boarding.

Fare dodgers: higher barriers would help.

 

[BJames]

Looking at the latest operator league tables Sullivan's are firmly at the bottom:

Bus operator league tables

League tables showing how bus operators compare against each other

tfl.gov.uk

The minimum standard for their low frequency routes is 85.1% on time while Sullivan's achieved 63.0%, a staggering variance of - 22.1%. Next worst was Uno with a variance of - 4.6%. The network average variance is - 0.7%.

Sullivan's is also bottom for its one high frequency route with an EWT of 3.61 min against the minimum performance standard of 1.10 min.

You won't find a Sullivan's bus with a full working set of blinds. Many are running around with just a bit of paper in the windscreen.

There are clearly many issues.

Lost count of the number of times I've seen a W9 pull up with a piece of paper in the windscreen. I can't recall ever boarding another bus in Enfield with this issue.

Since the start of route 456 and the end of my school days I've needed the W9 a lot less, but it's always been one of the more unreliable. These figures are unsurprising but nonetheless very interesting to see.

 

[TWBG]

Personally I think its down to how messy Sullivan’s allocation is.
Route 217: is usually 90% in terms of allocated buses, when it’s not full MMC operation its the 12/13 reg Enviro400s. Route 298: They try to put deckers on it when possible (much like how today its fully E)
Routes 299, 389 and 399: Usually the ones not crosslinked are using route 298 Enviro200s and ex Abellio. The crosslinked working is always SL operated.
Route 327: has been an AE for almost a year - the StreetLite allocated SL98 hasn’t been out since September.
Route 549: usually one of route W9s MMCs instead of one of the ex Abellio ones
AE14, SL93 and SL96-8 are missing so summed up in a nutshell a small operator operating about 6 SD routes and having missing buses can cause dents in service

Yeah, god knows when one of their routes will be tendered. It’s like mixing the wrong buses with the wrong routes

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Aug 2023 ==

I think we can be reasonably certain it won't qualify for a two year extension!

Affirmative, not a single route will have a 1-year extension let alone a 2-year extension because I have used their buses and they are awful; when I was waiting for a 299, I expected a Wright StreetLite, I got an Enviro 200 Dart that’s supposed to be on the 298

 

[galwhv69]

Personally I think its down to how messy Sullivan’s allocation is.
Route 217: is usually 90% in terms of allocated buses, when it’s not full MMC operation its the 12/13 reg Enviro400s. Route 298: They try to put deckers on it when possible (much like how today its fully E)
Routes 299, 389 and 399: Usually the ones not crosslinked are using route 298 Enviro200s and ex Abellio. The crosslinked working is always SL operated.
Route 327: has been an AE for almost a year - the StreetLite allocated SL98 hasn’t been out since September.
Route 549: usually one of route W9s MMCs instead of one of the ex Abellio ones
AE14, SL93 and SL96-8 are missing so summed up in a nutshell a small operator operating about 6 SD routes and having missing buses can cause dents in service

AE14 has been out in service recently, as I remember it being one of my 720 vehicles when controlling, seems to just be a tracking issue.

 

[MotCO]

Looking at the latest operator league tables Sullivan's are firmly at the bottom:

Bus operator league tables

League tables showing how bus operators compare against each other

tfl.gov.uk

The minimum standard for their low frequency routes is 85.1% on time while Sullivan's achieved 63.0%, a staggering variance of - 22.1%. Next worst was Uno with a variance of - 4.6%. The network average variance is - 0.7%.

Sullivan's is also bottom for its one high frequency route with an EWT of 3.61 min against the minimum performance standard of 1.10 min.

You won't find a Sullivan's bus with a full working set of blinds. Many are running around with just a bit of paper in the windscreen.

There are clearly many issues.

I thought that Dean Sullivan ran a tight ship. What's gone wrong? Is it pointing towards financial issues?

 

[duncombec]

Looking at the latest operator league tables Sullivan's are firmly at the bottom:

Bus operator league tables

League tables showing how bus operators compare against each other

tfl.gov.uk

The minimum standard for their low frequency routes is 85.1% on time while Sullivan's achieved 63.0%, a staggering variance of - 22.1%. Next worst was Uno with a variance of - 4.6%. The network average variance is - 0.7%.

[...]

Worth noting that those figures are from a period ending March, much may have changed since. Equally noteworthy is the fact that every single operator (and as a result the network average) has decreased in performance since the same period the year before, and even those above the benchmark have dropped. Abellio London West, for example, from +5.6 to -3.5, and in placings from 4th to 16th.

Are there issues in their North London operating area that are causing problems?

Yeah, god knows when one of their routes will be tendered. It’s like mixing the wrong buses with the wrong routes

The TfL tendering program is publicly available; no guessing required.


I'm not in a position to quote it at the moment (but will do later, unless anyone gets there first), but there is a curious third-hand post on the "tangytango" Proboards forum (it's allegedly from Dean Sullivan, on a Facebook group or page I'm not a member of, quoted with no surrounding context on the Proboards forum) essentially suggesting there is no love lost between Sullivan Buses and TfL, and they currently have no intention to seek further work from them, and aren't too fussed about the recent school bus route losses.

 

[90sWereBetter]

From experience with the 298, it is very tightly timetabled with only a couple of minutes of layover time at both Potters Bar and Arnos Grove. Any problems with the M25 or the North Circular at either end and it destroys service reliability.

One of my favourite routes though for the variety of secondhand E400s that can be found on it (especially given it's only supposed to be allocated midibuses!), plus the run between Potters Bar and Cockfosters is pretty spirited on a good day.

 

[BJames]

From experience with the 298, it is very tightly timetabled with only a couple of minutes of layover time at both Potters Bar and Arnos Grove. Any problems with the M25 or the North Circular at either end and it destroys service reliability.

One of my favourite routes though for the variety of secondhand E400s that can be found on it (especially given it's only supposed to be allocated midibuses!), plus the run between Potters Bar and Cockfosters is pretty spirited on a good day.

298: (anecdotally) one of the most unreliable routes out there. Many times I've been waiting between Potters Bar and Cockfosters with no idea when the next one would come because nothing was showing on countdown. Didn't quite realise that it had such tight layover times. Cockfosters Road can be pretty bad for traffic sometimes too.

 

[londonteacher]

The queues would change because people could just tap in when they get there then wait on other side of fare gate. Rather than all tapping in at same time when boarding.

Fare dodgers: higher barriers would help.

But the problem it’s trying to solve is not even a problem? At every stop the dwell time could potentially be quite long but this is not necessarily an issue. The biggest issue to bus performance is the London roads. More specific bus infrastructure could help such as further enhanced bus lanes, however this at the detriment to other road users.

 

[Goldfish62]

But the problem it’s trying to solve is not even a problem? At every stop the dwell time could potentially be quite long but this is not necessarily an issue. The biggest issue to bus performance is the London roads. More specific bus infrastructure could help such as further enhanced bus lanes, however this at the detriment to other road users.

Agreed. Plus robust schedules and effective service control. Plenty of operators can do it. A tiny minority can't.